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NEWS: Anime Firms Say They Were Forced to Take Low Tenders


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Traumaturge



Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:37 am Reply with quote
I would like some clarification here.

The comments seem to say that major studios are giving bum deals to smaller sub-contracting outfits. But I understood the article to say that the larger studios are getting the shaft from the "commisioners" of the animation. Would those be the TV networks and toy companies looking for product to sell?

So are they blaming (for instance) MBS and TV Tokyo, or Madhouse and Sunrise?
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:49 am Reply with quote
Piracy, illegal downloading have caused much of this problem. There really isn't a simple answer to this, or at least not yet. In the US, the economy has been in a reccession, but hopefully that will change. The only suggestion I can think of this placing quality over quanity and marketing only what sells.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:19 am Reply with quote
This has no direct link to piracy, or even to the American market. This is pretty much completely a report about the ways show sponsors are taking advantage of smaller studios.

Whether their hand is being forced by not having the capital is another matter, but even if that is the case, it's a pretty crappy thing to do to a vendor to hire them to do all this work, then kill the job without paying. But in a buyer's market, it happens quite a bit. This sort of thing happens with American retailers and smaller DVD labels, to name just one example.

I guess you can twist almost every piece of industry bad news to be about piracy in some regard, but I really wonder if some of the people pointing fingers here really understood the article.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:46 am Reply with quote
jsevakis wrote:
This has no direct link to piracy, or even to the American market. This is pretty much completely a report about the ways show sponsors are taking advantage of smaller studios.

Whether their hand is being forced by not having the capital is another matter, but even if that is the case, it's a pretty crappy thing to do to a vendor to hire them to do all this work, then kill the job without paying. But in a buyer's market, it happens quite a bit. This sort of thing happens with American retailers and smaller DVD labels, to name just one example.

I guess you can twist almost every piece of industry bad news to be about piracy in some regard, but I really wonder if some of the people pointing fingers here really understood the article.
I understood the article better than you think. If it is the case of the commissioners stuffing a vender after all that work, wouldn't that vender have a just cause for a law suit for payment due? I don't know the details of Japanese business regulations, but it's basically excepted world wide that if you hire someone to do a job, you must pay them for that work if it is good work to agreed specs, whether it's making wiggits, or animation, unless of course you go bust as a business, then it's down to the administrators, and what could have caused that? But to stuff someone when you've got the money is just criminal, and I agree, deserve to be treated as such. Also can these small studios be that nieve in business not to have had a binding contract before starting the job? That's just asking for trouble. Also a rouge commissioner would only end up getting blacklisted as no one in their right mind would take work from a reputation like that soon enough, basically putting that commissioner out of business anyway.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:13 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
I understood the article better than you think. If it is the case of the commissioners stuffing a vender after all that work, wouldn't that vender have a just cause for a law suit for payment due?
I wasn't talking about you. :p

And yes, you're right, but often the realities of business make lawsuits difficult or otherwise untenable. For example, suing would make you lose too much business, either from the company that took advantage of you (who would likely go out of their way to never hire you again), or others that fear you could do the same to them. Or that the cost of litigating would be more than you lost in the first place.

Also, keep in mind that lawsuits are pretty shunned in Japan, and are only filed in extreme cases. The awards are usually fairly low as well, compared to Western countries at least. But situations like this are commonplace in nearly every business-to-business market where there's a clear imbalance of power. I've seen it happen with retailers in the DVD business, I've seen it happen in the graphic design business, I've seen it happen in the movie distribution business. One takes advantage of the other, sometimes to the degree where one may go out of business.

The legal system CAN help, but often doesn't, for one reason or another. Often, the contracts are outright ignored, or the details are obfuscated to the point where it's impossible to tell from a legal perspective.

Them's business. It's a crappy world.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:22 pm Reply with quote
jsevakis wrote:

I guess you can twist almost every piece of industry bad news to be about piracy in some regard, but I really wonder if some of the people pointing fingers here really understood the article.


Did we hear about this going on 3 yrs ago when stuff looked rosy? Or is this all cost-cutting like we saw Geneon kill their USA branch to save a buck extended to cutting what these companies perceive they can cut in the name of saving a buck/increasing their profits?

When I first saw it, I was a bit ambiguous as to the cause. Sure, piracy's a piece of it, but the whole world economy in the toilet has to add to it. Every day in the States it looks like more companies are laying off in an attempt to stay alive--is this a similar thing for the anime companies? Or is it the big dog throwing his weight around? "Yeah, I promised you XXX, but now I'm giving you XX & you'll be happy"? Is this like the fat cats in Washington living off their pork & to hell with the masses (fat anime studios keeping things as normal at the top end while wringing every last drop of blood from the bottom)?

Even more interesting
Quote:
The commission surveyed 533 companies, and 114 responded.

What's going on with the other 400? Did just the 114 with issues respond & the others are just fine, or are they keeping quiet out of fear it could affect their futures? 42% of the respondants = about 50 companies or about 10% of all the companies questioned.
Is this a tip-of-the-iceberg thing, or just a small glitch exposed through this survey? A handful of studios abusing power or all of them doing it?
That response pool is rather unsatisfactory considering only 1 in 5 responded (Or is my math that bad these days?)
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partially



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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Location: Oz
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:48 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

What's going on with the other 400? Did just the 114 with issues respond & the others are just fine, or are they keeping quiet out of fear it could affect their futures? 42% of the respondants = about 50 companies or about 10% of all the companies questioned.
Is this a tip-of-the-iceberg thing, or just a small glitch exposed through this survey? A handful of studios abusing power or all of them doing it?
That response pool is rather unsatisfactory considering only 1 in 5 responded (Or is my math that bad these days?)


Getting even 1/5 to respond to a survey is a fairly satisfactory response really. People are simply notorious for not doing surveys, especially for something like this which sounds like a pretty detailed thing. And even if it was only 50 animation houses with the problem, that is still a lot!

@Mohawk52
If I read the article properly, it says that many of the animators are starting work without terms and conditions fully worked out, so no formal written contract. Since there is no contract in place, that is how companies can then walk away nonpaying and have no legal repercussions. In most legal systems if there isn't a work contract, then the person or company doing said work has very little control over getting full and proper payment for their work. It is very stupid to do work without a contract, and if companies are forcing them to do that, it should be investigated.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:02 pm Reply with quote
When people get screwed over and then they don't do anything about it, it keeps happening to them over and over but they just take it as it is. Kind of like an ijime case. It happens over and over but the kid getting picked on doesn't want to say anything to be an embarrassment to anybody or cause anybody else trouble.
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:11 pm Reply with quote
How is this a monopoly though? Its not the producers, its the consumers that are price setting... how is that illegal?

The commission surveyed 533 companies, and 114 responded... only 14 of them said they always arranged the contract conditions in writing before work began.

I know Japan is an asian country and they have different views on business practices, but that seems insanely risky.
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yblees



Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 165
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:35 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
I don't know the details of Japanese business regulations, but it's basically accepted world wide that if you hire someone to do a job, you must pay them for that work if it is good work to agreed specs… Also a rouge commissioner would only end up getting blacklisted as no one in their right mind would take work from a reputation like that soon enough, basically putting that commissioner out of business anyway.


Even though business regulations worldwide are pretty much based on the "western" model, doing business in Asia tends to be very different in practice - particularly if you are a small business competing for jobs from a few large customers. Getting a job would depend much, much more on who you know personally, and on keeping your "contact" sweet - really sweet. That means giving No Trouble whatsoever or risk getting blacklisted by the entire customer base (eg. not insisting on contracts, and definitely no lawsuits). In other words, those anime “commissioners” have more solidarity than you think. Of course, the power imbalance increases the chances of abuse.
(Plus I've always suspected that many animators/illustrators do it for love, and are actually lousy at business)

Actually it happens everywhere if you think about craftsmen - say a jeweller - with rich, powerful customers. Or apparently, if you are an airplane mechanic in the USA who has made a formal complaint about your company not servicing the airplanes properly - you'll be blacklisted and never work in the airplane maintenance industry again, even if one of your company’s planes subsequently crashes (saw this on TV the other day Wink )
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kokuryu



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
Piracy, illegal downloading have caused much of this problem. There really isn't a simple answer to this, or at least not yet. In the US, the economy has been in a reccession, but hopefully that will change. The only suggestion I can think of this placing quality over quanity and marketing only what sells.


This is where most people make a mistake. They want something to blame, so they put the blame on the piracy and illegal downloading. Instead of hurting the industry, it actually showed the industry the way of the future that they should have been heading toward all the time. And sales did go up and new markets were created worldwide for anime because of the piracy - they were the ones that actually created the initial markets in countries that Japan never wanted to move into.

BUT a lot of things were totally missed by what it meant for the piracy to be so rampant - within Japan. They totally missed the ONE thing they should have been paying attention to - the Japanese consumer. The Japanese consumer obviously wanted the product, BUT could not afford it at the prices it was being released at. Elsewhere in the world, while thinpacks of entire seasons were becoming the norm (for pirates to sell) and boxed sets of entire seasons were the norm for legal sales, the anime industry in Japan continued to crank out 50,000yen two episode DVDs and 75,000 yen two episode DVDs with fan specials. This is the SAME as I was paying for VHS tapes 30 years ago from Japan! For some reason, the anime industry never "got with times" with more modern pricing structures for releasing their DVD products. And now it is even worse with BD products. The Japanese consumer just CANNOT afford it!

That, coupled with the fact that so many people in Japan have a NEGATIVE reaction to anime and manga nowadays, unlike 20 to 30 years ago where it was almost nothing but a POSITIVE reaction, and the stories dont grab you anymore, and most shows are about nothing but trying to get cheap panty shots in, they wonder WHY the "popularity" of anime is dropping...

There was a one-time boom in the early 1990's where moe was the "in thing" for about a 2 year stretch. Instead, it somehow became the market mantra for all anime after that. At somewhere around about 2000 is where the moe market hit it's peak, and about when the mantra of "look, the pirates are stealing our money" began. It was never about pirates - it was always about the anime industry as a whole being ignorant to what reality was and ignoring 50 years of previous work that showed them where they should have been aiming, instead of where they ended up aiming.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:52 pm Reply with quote
kokuryu wrote:

This is where most people make a mistake. They want something to blame, so they put the blame on the piracy and illegal downloading. Instead of hurting the industry, it actually showed the industry the way of the future that they should have been heading toward all the time. And sales did go up and new markets were created worldwide for anime because of the piracy - they were the ones that actually created the initial markets in countries that Japan never wanted to move into.


Not really never WANTED, but never THOUGHT.
It's not unlike out own tv market. No one thought about residuals, etc. for those old tv shows. They were supposed to play a couple times & be gone. No one ever dreamed about syndication & people would actually want to see this stuff 40 yrs later. I've heard the same thing with anime--they never thought anyone would want to see this stuff. Listening to the commentaries by the old-timers who negotiated these things & most aniume studios were amazed anyone would want their old stuff

kokuryu wrote:

BUT a lot of things were totally missed by what it meant for the piracy to be so rampant - within Japan. They totally missed the ONE thing they should have been paying attention to - the Japanese consumer. The Japanese consumer obviously wanted the product, BUT could not afford it at the prices it was being released at. Elsewhere in the world, while thinpacks of entire seasons were becoming the norm (for pirates to sell) and boxed sets of entire seasons were the norm for legal sales, the anime industry in Japan continued to crank out 50,000yen two episode DVDs and 75,000 yen two episode DVDs with fan specials. This is the SAME as I was paying for VHS tapes 30 years ago from Japan! For some reason, the anime industry never "got with times" with more modern pricing structures for releasing their DVD products. And now it is even worse with BD products. The Japanese consumer just CANNOT afford it!


You are putting your values & system on a foreign market. The major issue with the Japanese market is THIS is how they have been doing business for decades. It's not like we do things here. In Japan, they have to negotiate with all the parties involved. It's not DC owns the characters so they can do as they please with Batman, it's Akira Toriyama owns DB/Z characters, but one might also need to talk to Toei, etc. I was disappointed when MediaBlasters was unable to release Rikki-Oh apparently unable to locate/reach a deal with one of the parties involved.
SO
for anime to become affordable as you perceive it is outside of Japan, they need to totally revamp the way they do business there. It's no big deal here because the ownership is clearer. Fox owns this. HBO owns that. They can sell it at the price they choose. (And no, it's not all the same price, is it, kiddies? Why does one show sell for $20 while another goes for $70 for the same number of minutes. Don't tell me they're charging what they figure the market will bear?!)
In fact, usually the home market is perceived as icing on the cake here. A movie has allegedly made back all its cost in the original run & whatever's made on dvd sales is hopefully profit most of the time.

kokuryu wrote:

That, coupled with the fact that so many people in Japan have a NEGATIVE reaction to anime and manga nowadays, unlike 20 to 30 years ago where it was almost nothing but a POSITIVE reaction, and the stories don't grab you anymore, and most shows are about nothing but trying to get cheap panty shots in, they wonder WHY the "popularity" of anime is dropping...


You mean the same view most of America allegedly has about the crap they're pitching on Prime Time any given day of the week? Quality shows usually get low ratings? Doesn't that "given" date back a few decades? At least back to my teen years in the '70's where most "quality" was on PBS aside from one or 2 efforts per year from the networks.

Does animation in America have a better rep?
Maybe among the college crowd, but trust me, I get a certain predictable reaction being my age & liking "Cartoons" & "Comic books" from most adults. It's expected one is supposed to grow up & like "adult" things. Most people seem to feel liking cartoons means one has a few marbles missing because cartoons are for kids.

kokuryu wrote:

There was a one-time boom in the early 1990's where moe was the "in thing" for about a 2 year stretch. Instead, it somehow became the market mantra for all anime after that. At somewhere around about 2000 is where the moe market hit it's peak, and about when the mantra of "look, the pirates are stealing our money" began. It was never about pirates - it was always about the anime industry as a whole being ignorant to what reality was and ignoring 50 years of previous work that showed them where they should have been aiming, instead of where they ended up aiming.


Is this what's happened to American tv?
Is this why all we can get is the reality crap while good shows like Pushing Daisies-perceived as a quality show-can't find an audience & get cancelled?

It's about cost.
Reality tv is cheap to make.
Same for anime.
Anime costs a pretty penny to make, so they make what they figure will sell. Moe. Game tie-ins. Popular manga.
The cost of failure is too great.
Same in Japan.
Same in the US.
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Ktimene's Lover



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Piracy does indeed have a contribution to the SOL anime industry.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:43 am Reply with quote
yblees wrote:
Actually it happens everywhere if you think about craftsmen - say a jeweller - with rich, powerful customers. Or apparently, if you are an airplane mechanic in the USA who has made a formal complaint about your company not servicing the airplanes properly - you'll be blacklisted and never work in the airplane maintenance industry again, even if one of your company’s planes subsequently crashes (saw this on TV the other day Wink )
That's why Trading Standards regulations exist to stamp out this kind of practice. Here in the UK if a whistle blower is persecuted, he, or she can sue the company for damages and compensation including the cost of the abitration. That can be very expensive to the company losing its case so only the very deviate, or very dumb, managers would go down that route. Also here verbal contracts are legally binding. The traditional "my word is my bond" understanding. Companies acting is collusion to fix prices of goods and services is what a monopoly is, and it is seen as anti-competitive, and heavily legislated against, at least here in the UK, and EU. Just recently a few of our supermarkets were spanked with a multi million pound fine for price fixing petrol at their pumps. If the JFTC has the same amount of teeth, those sponsors will want to get themselves some good lawyers, because they will be spending a lot of that money they didn't pay to those studios. I hope it costs them dearly.
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Kireek



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:30 pm Reply with quote
Ctimene's Lover wrote:
Piracy does indeed have a contribution to the SOL anime industry.



And yet again I say, "well as long as people are watching this piracy and are doing very little about it, ok then?
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