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Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

that's why it's called a conspiracy or just even a hunch a large amount of the library that sentai has licensed is on crunchy-roll. My only thought is since that cr is a stream only site working together with a dvd/bluray publisher to sell physical copies of some series they get isn't a bad idea. A x show is watched and is popular on cr, sentai sells the dvd's/blurays it's the same a cable network working with any other dvd/bluray publisher. Again this is all just speculation bs on my end, hell If I know i just thinking about it lawl.

I think you are totally right, they did it because of Funico and it looks like they ran Funico into the ground, lol. That kinda hurts their case against Funimation when it comes to monopolies though.

GrilledEelHamatsu wrote:

walw6pK4Alo wrote:

larinon wrote:

Based on the way that the other companies manage their money and license and release shows, it's like Funimation is going to be the last man standing rather than simply a monopoly.

That's how I see it, unless it's uncovered that FUNi was manipulating the system to cause other companies to fail. I doubt it though, and FUNi wasn't going around buying up smaller companies to kill competition and raise their prices due to scarcity and control. Luckily with entertainment media, a true monopoly wouldn't be able to exercise control like rail, steel, and oil companies could.

I also hope this doesn't hurt Sentai too bad, as they're the only other company that matches FUNi's large scale licensing of new titles. Sure you've got your Aniplexes, NISAs, Rightstufs, Discoteks, and so forth, but those combined don't really compete on the same level.

It will not affect Sentai in any way.

Isn't funi also suing sentai and anyone else linked with them?

Quote:

We believe these counterclaims are frivolous and will soon be dismissed. Funimation is obviously not a monopoly, has not sought a monopoly, and has never been in violation of any antitrust laws. Rather, these claims were brought in a transparent attempt to gain leverage in the case because the defendants lack any defense to Funimation's original claims.

Awwwww snap! You gonna take that lying down, A.D. Vision??

kusanagi-sama wrote:

bradc wrote:

jree78 wrote:

That's not how it works Crunchyroll has to own part of Sentai for Funi to go after Crunchyroll, besides why would Crunchyroll bail out Sentai it's not like they have 8 million dollars lying around.

And Crunchy Rolls liscenor and distibutor are Bandai Entertainment and FUNimation; they have no involvement in this. ADV was sued by FUNimation for the 8 billion dollars and fell for the bait.

Either way, ADV is beyond screwed, including its split-asset companies: Sentai Filmworks, Section 23, AEsir Holdings, Seraphim Studios, Valkyrie Media Partners who are still being run by former ADV, so much for trying to rename yourself and still being connected with the former company as before.

The whole anime industry isn't anywhere near $8 billion. Besides, you meant $8 million that FUNi and ADV are fighting over.

Typo on my part.

Money adds up from court-fees, attorneys, and damages on top of that and it's no small numbers. 8 million dollars is still money and ADV still owes them for not paying off their debt and continue to downward spiral in getting into further debt. Good luck to them, and perhaps finally put a nail into its coffin.

Thank you Business Law class for helping understand this. I have a hunch FUNimation is going to win this case as long as they're telling the truth, and I don't think they would be doing all this unless they were. It sucks for anime fans, but FUNimation needs to make money like every other business out there, and when they have an $8 million dollar line in there "Money Owed" section of the accounting sheet, it's something that most companies would want rectified.

I'm still struggling to understand how "ADV" can owe Funimation 8 million dollars that they didn't owe Sojitz but that Sojitz somehow sold to Funi, and how ADV's child companies can suddenly owe Funi money when they aren't legally related and Funi didn't do anything to recover that alleged debt over the past almost a decade. It'd be like your old neighborhood library showing up and being like "Yeah, remember that book you didn't return when you were six? Well, with all incurred fines and inflation, you now owe us twelve-thousand dollars." That's abandoned debt, folks.

If you ask me, it sounds like Sojitz managed to swindle the vast majority of the American anime industry, and has now put them at each others throats, simply to cut a quick buck.

As for "Funi is a monopoly", apparently, ADV's defense plan is to go tit-for-tat with ridiculous legal claims. Certainly, driving Sentai into the dust would put Funi in virtual control of anime localization, but I don't know of any evidence linking Funi to the demise of nearly every other previous anime localization company, and I think proving that they've done so would be next to impossible.

The idiocy of the whole thing is that either way, I can't see either company winning. Both are going to spend huge sums in a legal battle that ultimately won't make them a dime.

Scormio wrote:

Thank you Business Law class for helping understand this. I have a hunch FUNimation is going to win this case as long as they're telling the truth, and I don't think they would be doing all this unless they were. It sucks for anime fans, but FUNimation needs to make money like every other business out there, and when they have an $8 million dollar line in there "Money Owed" section of the accounting sheet, it's something that most companies would want rectified.

Funimation certainly believes they are telling the truth. They also believe the law supports them. However, that may or may not be the case, regardless of whether or not they believe their claims. ADV and Sentai also likely believe that Funimation is attempting to become a monopoly, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. That will all be up to the courts to decide.

The case can go many different ways. Funimation may win. They may not. A federal judge could force them into settlement talks. One or both lawsuits could be thrown out for any number of reasons. ADV could potentially prove their claims that Funimation conspired to take over their company though acquisition of debt, which given what we know from the court documents does seem very likely, and in doing so prove that they attempted to create a monopoly.

Nothing is ever clear cut in business cases like this. I've seen cases where the law was clearly on one side of a case, and where a lawsuit lacked any evidence, yet somehow still prevailed. You can never say with any certainty how a court is going to rule.

VORTIA wrote:

I'm still struggling to understand how "ADV" can owe Funimation 8 million dollars that they didn't owe Sojitz but that Sojitz somehow sold to Funi, and how ADV's child companies can suddenly owe Funi money when they aren't legally related and Funi didn't do anything to recover that alleged debt over the past almost a decade. It'd be like your old neighborhood library showing up and being like "Yeah, remember that book you didn't return when you were six? Well, with all incurred fines and inflation, you now owe us twelve-thousand dollars." That's abandoned debt, folks.

Because ADV's split-asset child companies are related to ADV former and now, who ran and did business before when ADV was still alive in those days; and still run by those very people who still trying to make a comeback to the anime industry, obviously.

The anime industry changed a lot now with the streaming Crunchy Roll.

VORTIA wrote:

I'm still struggling to understand how "ADV" can owe Funimation 8 million dollars that they didn't owe Sojitz but that Sojitz somehow sold to Funi, and how ADV's child companies can suddenly owe Funi money when they aren't legally related and Funi didn't do anything to recover that alleged debt over the past almost a decade. It'd be like your old neighborhood library showing up and being like "Yeah, remember that book you didn't return when you were six? Well, with all incurred fines and inflation, you now owe us twelve-thousand dollars." That's abandoned debt, folks.

ADV owed 8 million (well what is now 8 million because of interest) to one of the Japanese production companies.

They ended up owing them 8 million because the Japanese company bought a nice chunk of ADV and used its share holdings to have ADV buy licences for anime properties at way above market rate, though to be fair at the time during the boom it wasn't exactly too extreme.

Then the crash happened and ADV had no way of paying the money back. They tried to redo the terms, and I think even threatened legal action, but ultimately just dissolved.

At that point the Japanese company, basically gave up and went to Funi and said, "You can have all these licenses, if your also willing to buy out our outstanding debt." Like one bank buying a mortgage from another.... kind of. The deal was too good and Funi said yes.

The thing is now while the Japanese production company might have really screwed over ADV, Funi has paid real money for the debt as part of the deal. In the end I don't think ADV will end up having to pay and will just call chapter 4 and all. Meaning Funi and ADV will just end up both screwed.....

Ugh, maybe I should have took buisness instead of personal finance last semester... nah, still wouldn't have understood the point of this. much less care.

Pointless comment is pointless~ Laughing

Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

that's why it's called a conspiracy or just even a hunch a large amount of the library that sentai has licensed is on crunchy-roll. My only thought is since that cr is a stream only site working together with a dvd/bluray publisher to sell physical copies of some series they get isn't a bad idea. A x show is watched and is popular on cr, sentai sells the dvd's/blurays it's the same a cable network working with any other dvd/bluray publisher. Again this is all just speculation bs on my end, hell If I know i just thinking about it lawl.

Well not really the same because cable networks get money from advertising so they do get a benefit (and the more popular the show the more they can charge). I don't see how CR gets any benefit if a show they stream is licensed because they aren't making any extra money off of it. Well not that it really matters anyways; I am just the sort of person who always has to question conspiracy theories.

It's look really bad for Sentai, but the U.S law system is full of surprises.

I'm going to be sad if Sentai dissolves as I'll no longer be able to get dubs of shows like Ef a tale of melodies/memories or Fate UBW because Funimation won't license them.

This lawsuit is going to be the final act of the "Crash of the Anime Market" which began in Fall 2007 when Geneon abruptly shut down like a nuke going off...followed by announcements every week of more and more ADV assets being shut down from January 2008 onwards. In some ways its the culmination of the whole story of the anime boom-bust cycle; industry insiders knew there was trouble brewing by 2005ish, and the expansion really began before 2003.

Either way, this will be the final act. However it ends, it will shape the anime market for the next decade. Of that we can be assured.

050795 wrote:

Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

that's why it's called a conspiracy or just even a hunch a large amount of the library that sentai has licensed is on crunchy-roll. My only thought is since that cr is a stream only site working together with a dvd/bluray publisher to sell physical copies of some series they get isn't a bad idea. A x show is watched and is popular on cr, sentai sells the dvd's/blurays it's the same a cable network working with any other dvd/bluray publisher. Again this is all just speculation bs on my end, hell If I know i just thinking about it lawl.

Well not really the same because cable networks get money from advertising so they do get a benefit (and the more popular the show the more they can charge). I don't see how CR gets any benefit if a show they stream is licensed because they aren't making any extra money off of it. Well not that it really matters anyways; I am just the sort of person who always has to question conspiracy theories.

Saying it's a conspiracy is a bit much, but there does seem to be some sort of relationship between Crunchyroll and Sentai. The benefit to CR is that it allows it to compete with Funico, which was suppose to shake up the entire industry but has pretty much done nothing but botch a few simulcasts up until now. It would make sense that the Japanese would prefer to license a simulcast to a company that would guarantee, or at least strongly indicate, that there would be a physical release (and perhaps mechandising) at some point.

Working with Sentai would give CR a better chance at scoring titles that would have gone to Funimation otherwise, and benefits Sentai as well. Since they aren't springing for the entire cost of the digital rights, and simulcast, they are likely saving money. It also allows them to offer things that Funimation can't or wont and give them a leg up in negotiating.

So far, Sentai has only simulcast shows, whether on TAN or CR, that it has licensed full rights to. Funimation often only licenses simulcast and streaming rights. Since Sentai is willing to release some series sub-only, it gives them a bit of an advantage as they can guarantee a release for just about everything, while Funi cannot.

Quote:

Rather, these claims were brought in a transparent attempt to gain leverage in the case because the defendants lack any defense to Funimation's original claims.

Except ADV has multiple defenses and stated them in the first case. Oh Funimation, you silly company you.

ADV's defense for those who forgot:

1) The Statue of limitations was up before Funimation filed the complaint
2) Sentai, Section 23, et al are not ADV
3) None of these companies ever entered into a contract with Funimation except for the completion of the dubs on certain ARMs titles, which did not include anything about debt or payments like this.

Lynx Amali wrote:

Eh. Gonna need my bowl of popcorn for this one.

The definition of monopoly:

Quote:

The exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.

Funi isn't a monopolist by any means of the word. Just because they have more licenses makes them a monopolist? Give me a break.

Just hoping Sentai doesn't get hit that bad by this. I tend to think of ADV and Sentai as completely different entities in my mind despite knowing that's they are essentially one and the same. After all, they release some of the titles I actually want.

Again it's not about whether or not Funimation is currently a monopoly. But rather that they (ADV's words) "engaged in anticompetitive or predatory conduct" to "maintain willfully, or to gain" an attempt on a monopoly while violating texas business and commercial codes. Pretty much what matters is not whether Funimation is a true monopoly, but rather if they tried to gain a large market share through illegal business practices and conspiring with other companies. They never say Funimation is currently a monopoly, only that it tired or is trying to become one. The final outcome is almost irrelevant. And seeing how ADV supposedly has evidence that FUNimation tried to take over ADV's debt twice, I'd say that makes their claims at least worth hearing.

Not sure why people keep being so sure things aren't going to go well for Sentai, ADV and the rest of them in these cases. How can you tell that from the information available? Honestly anything can happen still.

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