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Inconsistent Moderating


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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:23 pm Reply with quote
strawberry-kun wrote:
Zac wrote:

I never saw this. Saying "stabbing those twats" is completely over the line. Please give me some more context for this and maybe link to the offending post. This warrants a ban. I am not OK with this.

It's from this thread. It's on the first (and only) page.

animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2162332&highlight=#2162332


I just banned him for 2 months. That isn't OK.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1527
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:57 am Reply with quote
All I see here is a dumb hyperbole. Nothing that could have a place in an adult discussion, but also imo not a reason for a ban unless constantly and aggressively used. But, oh well, enjoy your summer dragon!
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Keonyn
Subscriber



Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:26 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I just banned him for 2 months. That isn't OK.


That was my bad. Apparently I must have been tired that night or something because I did see that thread and even warned him, but somehow missed the vulgar language as well.

Quote:
Legitimate question here: Why not? Why does the review for the Madoka manga get to be under your jurisdiction, but the thread with Infinite Stratos doesn't? I'd understand if it was a thread about Random Show X that doesn't create much buzz, but I would've thought after how the thread for the review exploded into the cesspool it became, IS threads would've gotten a little more attention - especially this one after it hit the third page, which should've triggered something. Is it simply a case of you like Madoka so you'll watch that thread, but you don't like Infinite Stratos, so you don't care?

Also, in case this is your answer, I know editorial is what you do for the site, but the Talkback Section is still a part of the forums that you moderate. So even if it is a case of "The Madoka review is editorial and the IS thing was news", I don't see why the talkbacks are affected by that since they're both forum-related.


Why not? Neither Zac or I or any mod are going to be able to read every thread ever written every day. Obviously if something is reported that will make sure a mod looks at it, but even then it's not always going to be Zac or any other specific mod, but rather whichever mod gets the report. Plus, this isn't a matter of "jurisdiction", the entire forum is our jurisdiction, we don't have specifically assigned threads.

Plus, Zac doesn't even act as a forum moderator the bulk of the time, there are other staff for that. Your accusations are way out of line by somehow implying that Zac is in the wrong for moderating a problem he sees in one thread but not taking action in regards to another thread that he did not happen to see? Should we start filling out paperwork to verify we've read every single thread ever written before taking action on one just so you can be assured we're being fair? Sorry, but your expectations are ridiculous and your accusations towards Zac are way off.

Quote:
I wouldn't think that needed internal discussing, honestly. I wouldn't think that needed any kind of discussing.


Well, you'd be wrong. That's a slippery slope and should be discussed before blanket enforcement occurs. Plus, as has been clear from some peoples responses it's not as big of a deal for everyone so obviously there would be some discussion involved before we add a all encompassing solid rule based on the feedback of a few people. This forum has a reputation of being over-moderated as it is.

Quote:
I don't think that works in this case, Zac, because the difference in the way the two situations were handled were on the other ends of spectrum. You threatened a ban and Keonyn essentially gave the habitual nuisance dtm42 a wag of the finger for the same offense. It's not even a different situation, it's identical ones. While you are higher up on the food chain than Keonyn when it comes to powers, you're both moderators who follow the same guidelines on the same site, but you both did two completely different things for the same problem. This isn't a case of Tony K. locking a recommendation thread vs Key leaving one open because it "had effort". This is two posters making similar tasteless jokes and you threating to ban one and Keonyn doing nothing to the other.


No, it is not the same. Plus, it is not a direct violation of the rules, as has already been mentioned. If something violates the rules it will get the same response, but whether you like it or not, some of these violations are matters of perception. Plus, the jokes were not identical as I have already mentioned. dtm42 expressed apathy, while Polycell outright expressed a desire to see someone dragged out and beaten. Plus Polycell chose to aggrevate the situation after Zac told him to knock it off in a fashion that was just as much as a "finger-waving" as I apparently gave dtm42. Had dtm42 responded to me in a similar fashion I may well have taken more severe action.

But, while we're accusing people I have to ask; if it wasn't dtm42 that had posted would you have noticed or cared?

Quote:
As someone who is on the site all the time and sees 99% of posts that come through here and actually travels outside of the Talkback section, I'm confident in saying that I do have the knowledge of his posts to make that judgment call. You don't leave the Talkback Section (you've said that yourself on the ANNcast), so you don't see the good, solid discussions he has in the Anime Section or that he's a regular in the Retail Section and makes several nonchalant comments. I don't know what it takes to be an "upstanding citizen" in the forums, but I do know Polycell isn't an asshole and that that one, crude joke isn't something he's known for, and that's enough for me to make a call that he has a "good rep". That, and I've never seen a mod openly confront him on anything, mostly because they don't really need to.


And yet that is still a judgement call of your own, much like those you're accusing us of making.

Quote:
And I know that dtm42 said that he dreamed an author of a light novel would commit suicide via auto-erotic asphyxiation (that's pretty detailed) and that he believes it's "only natural" to wish harm and misfortune on people you don't like. That shouldn't be OK with anyone.


Personally, I don't see the two comments as the same. Plus, as I said, Zac's initial response wasn't that much different from my own with dtm42 and would have been left at that if Polycell hadn't commented again.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:48 pm Reply with quote
strawberry-kun wrote:
I reported two of your posts in that thread. You must have missed one. Either that or something weird happened.


Huh. I could have sworn I'd checked them all.

I can understand you reporting the first one with the fake headline, but I thought I was fairly polite to other users and pretty-much on-topic for the rest of that thread. Just saying.
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superdry



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 1309
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
Zac wrote:
I just banned him for 2 months. That isn't OK.


That was my bad. Apparently I must have been tired that night or something because I did see that thread and even warned him, but somehow missed the vulgar language as well.


You missed the vulgar language, but I think you did your job to make sure things weren't going to be derailed in that thread...you gave a warning. And, nothing happened after the warning - which is perfectly fine by me. I agree with your point about moderation if someone doesn't antagonise the situation even further after a warning.

I do have to say that the moderators here (including Zac) have done a perfectly fine job since I joined the community. A little things here and there, but those were taken care of promptly. No complaints on my end regarding the job you guys do when you can.
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Rhyono



Joined: 03 Dec 2011
Posts: 1039
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:25 pm Reply with quote
I've owned many websites and a few of them had forums. My active users were far lower than ANN's and ANN has only about 2-3 times the moderators and admins I had.

My biggest site probably only had about 100,000 posts; ANN has 21 times that. I (and my moderators) did not have time to read every single post. It would take hours each day to attempt that, and I simply did not have the desire for reading things that mostly did not pertain to me.

I had other things to do in a day; among them were work and school. As far as I know: none of ANN's admins or mods are hired to moderate full time.

Just about everyone falls into a few distinct groups:
  • Beneficial - actually contributes to the site; such as monetary donations/subscriptions, reporting issues/bugs or adding information.
  • Normal - uses the information that is provided or hangs out on the forums; never really causes a stir, but doesn't contribute much either.
  • Delinquent - someone that exists simply to cause problems; never contributes in a positive way and rubs most other members the wrong way.
  • Special - not any nicer ways of putting it; a user that everyone hates, but doesn't seem to be doing whatever it is that they do to annoy everyone intentionally.
  • Self-centered - a user that believes their questions/concerns/desires/everything takes priority; assumes they understand how everything works and thinks they can improve the entire system.


I won't say which group most of the people that are complaining in this thread fall into, but I believe you'll be able to discern it for yourselves.

A mod and admin chose to respond to this thread and I'm sure their time could have been better spent doing other things (including moderating) than trying to explain themselves.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23624
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:52 pm Reply with quote
Rhyono wrote:
A mod and admin chose to respond to this thread and I'm sure their time could have been better spent doing other things (including moderating) than trying to explain themselves.


Gee, thanks White Knight for your incredibly useful intervention. We are all richer for it. Rolling Eyes The difference between a professional, well-run site like ANN and any of the sites run by somebody like you, is that fortunately, the admins/mods here understand that a dialogue between the users - i.e. the people who furnish the reason for the site's existence - and the people who run the site is essential. The issues raised in this thread were not frivolous - as evidenced by the fact that Zac decided to act on some information given. Hopefully, you are not involved in running any sites any longer because you clearly don't have the right professional attitude for it.
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Rhyono



Joined: 03 Dec 2011
Posts: 1039
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Hopefully, you are not involved in running any sites any longer because you clearly don't have the right professional attitude for it.


I'm assuming you are hoping to get some sort of ranting or hurt response out of me. Instead: here's your most recent post:

Blood- wrote:
Rolling Eyes

Fortunately, Funi is run by people way more business savvy than yourself...


It's rather obvious you spend most of your time attempting to get such responses out of people; I'm glad to see you distinctly fall into one of my defined groups of users.
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber
Moderator


Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 3011
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:34 am Reply with quote
Rhyono wrote:

I'm glad to see you distinctly fall into one of my defined groups of users.


You were surely talking about the Beneficial group, right? Very Happy Actually, since I believe he's a subscriber (I'm fairly certain only subscribers are allowed custom titles), even by your own stated standards he'd fall into the beneficial group.

Blood- may have been a bit snarky, but he made a good point. There were some legitimate issues brought up in this thread. Though I don't know what the heck The King of Harts was going on with his "why isn't it your jurisdiction Zac?" post. Regardless, I am very glad Zac and Keonyn took the time to actually read the posts and consider the points being raised, rather than just ignore everything because there was a rude tone to some of the posts and they had other things to be doing. There is more to the good moderation of a forum than just editing/deleting posts.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:18 am Reply with quote
Not that it really matters at this point but I just want to say that I understand why Polycell was a bit upset with Zac's behaviour towards them. The initial comment about wanting to beat someone within an inch of their life was the sort of violence-orientated gripe that has been said many times before on ANN with no repercussions. Being the first one to actually be strongly chastised for saying something like that wouldn't seem fair.

But far more importantly, having someone else imply that you are a sociopath would be pretty hurtful and is well outside what I'd personally consider common decency and acceptable Forum behaviour. If someone called me a sociopath I would report them, plain and simple.
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 5689
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:42 am Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Rhyono wrote:

I'm glad to see you distinctly fall into one of my defined groups of users.


You were surely talking about the Beneficial group, right? :D Actually, since I believe he's a subscriber (I'm fairly certain only subscribers are allowed custom titles), even by your own stated standards he'd fall into the beneficial group.



If we are solely talking about "groups", then not only Blood- and I would fall into that group, but as would all subscribers. Mad_Scientist is quite correct in inferring only subscribers have custom title. I can attest being a subscriber myself, that information is indeed correct. However, subscribers also have green stars attached their username as well.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7578
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:22 am Reply with quote
Rhyono wrote:
As far as I know: none of ANN's admins or mods are hired to moderate full time.

None of the moderators are hired at all, they are volunteers.
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Rhyono



Joined: 03 Dec 2011
Posts: 1039
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:14 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Rhyono wrote:

I'm glad to see you distinctly fall into one of my defined groups of users.


You were surely talking about the Beneficial group, right? Very Happy Actually, since I believe he's a subscriber (I'm fairly certain only subscribers are allowed custom titles), even by your own stated standards he'd fall into the beneficial group.


Rhyono wrote:
Just about everyone falls into a few distinct groups:


It may have been over ambiguous, but I was using "few" as in "more than one per person is possible" rather than "you must fall into one of these few." I think you understand what I'm saying, so I don't need to state it blatantly.

Shiroi Hane wrote:
Rhyono wrote:
As far as I know: none of ANN's admins or mods are hired to moderate full time.

None of the moderators are hired at all, they are volunteers.


I know. Wink
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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:46 pm Reply with quote
I've been reading this thread from the beginning, but I haven't commented yet.

I think the mods and admins on ANN do a wonderful job. To the assertion that the mods are too strict, I think they're too lenient. I've seen plenty of posts that I feel are inappropriate (either in content, in soapboxing, etc), that I've reported, and seen nothing done about.

It is ridiculous, on a forum of this size, to expect the moderators to be able to read everything, unless they are assigned specific forums. The biggest thing I can recommend to anyone who is concerned, is to use the Report Post feature. You can write a quite detailed explanation for the report, and if you're really concerned, you can always ask in the report for the moderator who takes care of it to PM you with an explanation if they don't find justification for editing/removing/whatever-ing the post.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:48 am Reply with quote
Dessa wrote:
I've seen plenty of posts that I feel are inappropriate (either in content, in soapboxing, etc), that I've reported, and seen nothing done about.

For example, this user had a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
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