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Chicks On Anime - Fansubs (Pt 1)


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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 6984

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:14 am Reply with quote
Quote:
There are fans who think that Legend of Galactic Heroes will never be released


Yes there are. When your estimate for the cost of the show was 2000 American dollars, that's a little steep for most people to bite at. But thanks to fansubs, the show has a steadily growing popularity.

So yeah, there's of DVDs and legal options available, but they still can't cover every show that comes out these days. Hell, there are even some shows that fansubbers don't take part in! That's when you know the market is still saturated.

Quote:
You don't think that anime is mainstream?


There is no way in hell anime is mainstream. Maybe you think it can seem that way because it's on TV sometimes, and maybe most people know DBZ or Pokemon exist, but you can't compare it to Hollywood or network television. I'd be willing to bet 99.5+% of people still think anime is shows for children, or violent pornographic cartoons from those godless Japanese.

Quote:

Even if you've got cable or satellite television, technically you're paying for the service, not the content.


Also this, a million times this. The way it's set up for us, we'd have to buy everything blindly, only going on reviews and trailers if we wanted to stay completely legit. The Japanese only have to do this for OVAs, which are far rarer than they used to be. And there's no way you can comparing streaming anime to TV broadcast, the experience and quality are vastly different. For the Japanese, they watched the show on TV and probably DVR'd and burned it onto discs. But since loyalty and honor or whatever are still ingrained in their culture, they have a better reason to buy the DVDs even at a higher cost, nevermind the extras that most DVDs come with.

Quote:
The current consumers don't want Macross: DYRL. They don't want Dr. Slump.


The ironic thing is that the older fans who want older things are probably willing to pay more for them. Crunchyroll has Harlock and GE999, but it's a site that caters more to hip new popping fresh stuff like naruto what have you, those shows aren't going to be getting many views. And about DYRL, the R2's might be worth it, but I thinking waiting to see if they do a BD release might be more worthwhile.


Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:30 am; edited 3 times in total
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Anime World Order



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 348
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:18 am Reply with quote
I must confess to never having used Crunchyroll in my life. But the discussion brings up an interesting hypothetical: "what if they started streaming classic anime for free?" This is actually already starting. I've been told that I can go on there and watch Galaxy Express 999 TV, Space Pirate Captain Harlock, and some of the original Fist of the North Star TV on there right now. Only a few episodes are currently available for free, but eventually they all will be. I'd be curious to see if anyone actually cares.

walw6pK4Alo wrote:
So yeah, there's of DVDs and legal options available, but they still can't cover every show that comes out these days. Hell, there are even some shows that fansubbers don't take part in! That's when you know the market is still saturated.


I don't know if it necessarily shows market saturation that "not everything gets fansubbed." What it shows is "what people actually care about." In my opinion, fansubbing has a place and a purpose in 2009, and that place and purpose is in releasing titles that are in all likelihood not going to be licensed for release in the United States anytime soon. LoGH is a picture-perfect example of this. But that's not what actually happens most of the time, is it?

The questions regarding (paraphrased) "why are you even bothering with Maria-sama ga Miteru Season 4 when you've stated that you'd rather be working on Dr Slump?" were great, and the answer reveals why I seem to have lost some faith in fansubbers as of late (not necessarily Freelance or a few others, but as a collective practice). Simply put, what gets fansubbed is what translators care enough to work on. Whether it's licensed or not isn't really that important compared to the question of "does the person with the Japanese to English knowledge care about THIS specific title?" In the end, that's the one and only deciding factor in what gets fansubbed, or in the case of manga "scanlated."

I'll be 29 soon. That makes me a dying old man as far as anime fandom is concerned, so I'm sure what I care about is ultimately of no concern. But my interests don't always coincide with what everyone else is into, which includes the translators. The end result is that just about all of the anime I'm currently watching consists of things I have no choice but to watch raw when available because even though it's brand new shows I'm watching, nobody cares to fansub any of them in English. Golgo 13, Yatterman, the recently concluded Hokuto no Ken: Raoh Gaiden, etc? No ongoing English fansub projects for these exist. I'm eagerly anticipating Z Mazinger, but I know it'll get at most three episodes fansubbed and then no more.

In a way, it's funny how despite all the leaps and bounds in fansubbing quality/technology/availability, I'm still largely chasing down raws to watch stuff just like 15 years ago. Oh well. There's still a few awesome fansub projects ongoing. The other day I finally got a high quality fansub of Queen Millennia, and I hear someone's thinking of starting up work on Dougram. I won't be burning out on fandom anytime soon; way I see it, "if you never saw it before, then it counts as new." Just don't try and sell me on either the "fansubbing is obsolete and need no longer exist" or "fansubbing helps things earn mainstream popularity" arguments anytime soon.


Last edited by Anime World Order on Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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larinon
Collector ExtraordinaireCollector Extraordinaire


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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Location: Midland, TX

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:32 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Sara: I agree with you, Bamboo, to an extent. I have Mind Game on R2, after all.

Ha! That is a truly strange and intriguing title there. It was very fascinating to watch.


I'm an older fan, if not necessarily chronologically speaking but definitely in mindset. I love having physical copies of media and am absolutely a collector of things. At the same time I'm also a fansub fanatic. For me they make a good stopgap while I wait for the official DVD release. And if there isn't a DVD release, then at least I was able to enjoy the show via other means. That's my take on it at least. I don't have a region-free player so even if a foreign release has English subtitles I generally won't seek it out. One of the exceptions is a Korean release I purchased of Battle Royale which was region 0 and included engrish subtitles. (I'm reasonably certain it's not a bootleg)
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Unit 03.5-ish



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:33 am Reply with quote
I'm surprised how civil and articulate the fansubber was. Then again, he seems to be part of the "old guard" that believed in sharing something they loved, as opposed to the fame whores of the modern fansubbing community. Really, though, I think it is retardiculous to sub Naruto when new Shippuden episodes are popping up at a lightning pace on CR. But the point about whether or not anime is mainstream yet is still a sketchy issue. I don't think it's truly mainstream even today, despite it being all around us. It is STILL a very niche form of entertainment.

The comparison with the comic industry brings this to my mind: anime is starting to get more live adaptations, right? Look how horribly comics have suffered since Marvel and DC started to rely on the movies for their profits (Civil War copies should all be burned in one big cathartic bonfire sodjammit). What if anime starts to decline even further in quality if the studios think they can rely on Hollywood movies to bring in money?


EDIT: was anyone putting money on me being in here by the first page? Wink
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:34 am Reply with quote
Anime World Order wrote:
Golgo 13, Yatterman, the recently concluded Hokuto no Ken: Raoh Gaiden, etc? No ongoing English fansub projects for these exist. I'm eagerly anticipating Z Mazinger, but I know it'll get at most three episodes fansubbed and then no more.


I have seen a somewhat interesting effort on the behalf of some people to try and get a number of 80's robot shows subbed. Stuff like Xabungle, Dancougar, Vifam, and a bunch of others. That's where fansubbing is really important, the stuff that no company would even bother to consider.
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guet



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
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Location: Sparta

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:42 am Reply with quote
One of the major benefits to fansubs vs streaming is that depending on format, the newer dvd players and the new gaming systems can put the anime right up on your hdtv in all it's widescreen glory. Until you can do that off a streaming site, I don't really see crunchyroll as making fansubbers obsolete. I think funimation has actually made more of a case by producing cheaper boxsets availiable sooner to the western audience, than anything done yet by crunchyroll etc. Maybe it's just me, but watching anime in lower quality on my laptop while my television is 10 feet away seems like a waste.
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sunflowerseed



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 106
Location: South Texas

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:46 am Reply with quote
About " Casey's comment on Google Trends", these days I go to Youtube and search there. Its often the music in the OP or ED that get s my attention to start anyway. Also once I saw google was collecting more information and keeping it on every day searches I quit going there for any reason. I can't be alone there.

I am not the 1st to say this but, if it wasn't for the fansubs I wouldn't have the english dubbed versions of all the series I have bought nor any of the figurines or music. I collect albums from the Anime music OP and ED makers as well. None of it would have happened and I'd not have bought 1 thing or even known these Artists existed if not for the Subbers.

Thank you.
Edit added joost.com has had the very best graphics of them all so far for me. My computer can handle any thing and theirs really looks great, Funimations video player is the next best free player so far. Crunchyroll which I used a lot prior to Jan 1. 2009 isn't superb and often dark and grainy on the 1st run now subscription based viewings. The airing of the show later on Crunchyroll seem to be just fine.


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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:46 am Reply with quote
guet wrote:
One of the major benefits to fansubs vs streaming is that depending on format, the newer dvd players and the new gaming systems can put the anime right up on your hdtv in all it's widescreen glory. Until you can do that off a streaming site, I don't really see crunchyroll as making fansubbers obsolete. I think funimation has actually made more of a case by producing cheaper boxsets availiable sooner to the western audience, than anything done yet by crunchyroll etc. Maybe it's just me, but watching anime in lower quality on my laptop while my television is 10 feet away seems like a waste.


If you have a long enough cord, or a laptop, you can VGA/DVI right into most new HDTVs and make it a second screen. Though streaming anime will still look bad compared to a fansub encode.
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DFBTG



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:47 am Reply with quote
I know it's part 1, but that was a rather...weird (for lack of a better term) way to end it in my opinion. Then again, I don't know what comes after, so...meh.

For me, I don't so much have a problem with the fansubbers...it's those that watch them. Well, those that watch them on youtube and what have you. I think most people that actually download them stop doing so once it's licensed, and respectable subbers stop once that happens, too, but those that upload them to youtube, well, just do a few searches and you'll see what I mean. It may be hypocritical of me to say that, seeing as I'm one of the stream watchers, but I've yet to watch any fansubs for something that's been streamed, and have 'watched' (just set up a playlist, started it, and walked away) of series I've seen fansubbed beforehand. What I'm really pissed at is being labeled a 'hater' because I've been telling people about Hulu, CR, joost, ANN, Funimation, etc. and asking people to remove the videos of the series present on any of those. For those people the biggest reason fansub downloaders have against free, legal streams is removed; quality. I really don't understand those people. Sure, must of the videos are restricted to R1, but a large amount of stuff on CR is an exception to that. More than the fansubs themselves, I think it's the people who stream stuff on video sharing sites that pose the biggest threat. Not only do they probably reach a large audience, but I think most of them are quite young and the whole concept of 'legal' causes them to hiss. Now, if they actually bought what they watched....

sunflowerseed wrote:
I am not the 1st to say this but, if it wasn't for the fansubs I wouldn't have the english dubbed versions of all the series I have bought nor any of the figurines or music. I collect albums from the Anime music OP and ED makers as well. None of it would have happened and I'd not have bought 1 thing or even known these Artists existed if not for the Subbers.

Thank you.


I'm with you there. Bane though it may be considered to most, without fansubs I wouldn't own ANYTHING outside of FMA. Sure, I may not have the largest collection, but the 39 other DVDs I own would still be sitting on some store's shelf or a warehouse. Does that justify me watching them? I think so. Without it, they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell getting my money. The last season of Yu Yu Hakusho and the FMA movie jaded me in that regard.


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The_Libertarian_Otaku



Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:48 am Reply with quote
Sara's afraid that new media will leave DVD collectors out in the dust?

Pfft, DVDs and Blu-Ray will NEVER die out. You can't give someone a link to a streaming video for Christmas or their birthday. Nor can you put MPEG or DIVX video files on your shelves like you can with physical disc-based media. If the anime industry switched to new media completely and eliminated ALL physical DVDs and Blu-Ray discs, people would have to buy terabyte drives that can ultimately crash and burn, and then you're screwed, having to fork over a couple C-notes for a new hard drive! Disc media, on the other hand, is more sturdy and lasts nigh forever (I once read that a CD can last up to 300 years if taken care of properly; this should hold true for DVDs and Blu-Ray discs).
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HikariNinjaX



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:57 am Reply with quote
Well, I have lived only two years in the United States, and I think the companies are doing a great improvement about anime and manga in general, but most fans don´t appreciate it. Back in Mexico I could only chose from less than 10 titles of manga that were published, and the only animes on TV were Dragon Ball Z (and it has been on TV since 13 years, so everybody got it memorized), Inuyasha (more than 5 years being repeated, people got it memorized too) and Yu Gi Oh! GX (and the TV station is always skipping episodes or changin its schedule, so no one has seen it complete)... when I discovered the manga section in Borders I was speechless! And my friends and I got so amazed at how many DVDs were at Suncoast... they are so much we can´t even remember the names.
But as in Mexico, there are countries when these facilities don´t exist (just count all latin america) and fansubs are the only option if you want to watch on TV something besides soap operas. So fansubs will keep on working on recent and ancient titles until there are more options in these countries.
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animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:04 am Reply with quote
In all of these debates about fansubs, no one has ever brought up whether or not the English licenser's screw the show over (like what 4kids did to One Piece) It does happen,and in order to see it then, you either have to wait until it gets licensed by a different company or you watch fansubs(even then with a show like one piece, i have to wait years and years in order for the English release to catch up to where I am in the series)

A lot of people talk about how fansubs kill the industry because nobody buys anything anymore, I don't think this to be true. Sure nobody buys anything, but not because of fansubs. Because of Advertising, most anime trailers are just the opening theme set to random clips from the anime, which is ridiculous. There are people who make trailer amv's with windows movie maker that make better trailers.
EXAMPLES:
in keeping with consistency, iam going to use 2 different one piece trailers, one is fan made, the other is FUNImations official trailer. The FUNimation trailer isn't necessarily bad per se, its just not as good as it could be.

FUNImation Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​Rv_GpQdOwB8

Fan made:
http://www.youtube.com/​watch?​v=​BMmsaHIKx98&​feature=​channel_page

see the difference?
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Unit 03.5-ish



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:09 am Reply with quote
hermit -- concede to point made on official trailers commercials being lesser in quality I often must. I remember seeing the Darker Than Black preview on one of my Witchblade boxed set discs, thinking that, with the images of flashy character action set to Yoko Kanno music, it was going to be yet another show in the same vein as Cowboy Bebop. That told me NOTHING of the supernatural powers aspect of the show, which irritated me to no end.
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:10 am Reply with quote
The_Libertarian_Otaku wrote:
(I once read that a CD can last up to 300 years if taken care of properly; this should hold true for DVDs and Blu-Ray discs).


Apparently the hundred years or more lifespan only holds if you maintain a certain level of temperature and humidity. Most people don't exactly have archival facilities.
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Cait
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:12 am Reply with quote
I think the point about who is the fanbase of fansubs is the key issue in this discussion. As interesting as it was to hear a fansubber's take on the issue (albeit with the standard defense, "I'll stop when they prove it to me that the industry is moving in a direction I like"), the fact of the matter is that the people who are "hurting" the industry with fansubs are not the ones who are releasing or consuming the "classic" titles. It's the Naruto and Bleach fansubs that are the real problem: series that are not only licensed and being released here already, but are even available on television (and in Naruto's case, now available nearly simultaneously with the Japanese airdates on the internet). It's unfathomable to me why fansub supporters continue to defend the fansubbing of series in these instances, and worse still, complain when their favorite fansubbed show is now available legally for free, in English, on TV and the internet. There's no pleasing some people.

I'm also irked about the continued argument about the "better" job fansubbers do in translating or presenting anime to the consumer. There are a host of legitimate reasons why titles are "altered" or formatted in certain ways for commercial distribution, and I have to wonder whether the complaints about licensed releases (and I will concede an inconsistency in quality in a number of cases, however many of those are from years past) isn't just a "talking point" for the side of the debate that has the most to "lose" (ie, in their wallets when they actually have to start opening them) and less about the "purity" of the artform. I've read a decent number of scanlations in my day, and seriously, people, the official English versions are always better. "Literal" translations be damned. I think there is a serious misconception there that is possibly related to the downfall of a basic understanding of proper English grammar (that allows abominations like the early DMP yaoi novels to happen and no one demanding their money back--had there been fan translations of those books in the first place, though, I guarantee you they wouldn't have been any better). Just because you get "closer" to the original Japanese doesn't make it a better read.

I think my biggest complaint, though, would be the general sense of entitlement that these people seem to have about anime, as if they deserve to get it for free. Both the US and Japan are capitalist democracies. Nothing is free and everything is marketable. I just honestly wish that people would stop lying to themselves about the reality of what they are doing when they watch fansubs. It's like no one wants to believe they are doing something wrong so they convince themselves that they aren't. It isn't helping any of us in the long run and honestly it is denying the first step, rational debate, from ever being able to take place. I'm not telling anyone to stop doing anything, but please stop saying, "I'm not doing anything illegal and I'm not contributing to the problems with the industry by watching fansubs."
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