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Chicks On Anime - Fansubs (Pt 1)


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DonQuigleone



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 154
Location: Dublin, Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:37 am Reply with quote
Don't forget that most legal anime streaming and whatnot only operates in the USA, those of us who do not live there are left out in the cold a lot of the time(with fewer dvd releases too), so we only have fansubs!

Certainly anime is far more mainstream in america then here in Ireland, all we get is Yu-Gi-Oh.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 963
Location: The Argama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:44 am Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
animehermit wrote:
Zac wrote:


I see one trailer that's just a generic action movie score set to a bunch of shots of random characters, no story description at all, no explanation of what the hell's going on, and is basically an AMV aimed at people who have already seen the series.

Then I see one that's an attempt at actually selling a show to people who haven't seen it, which is what marketing people do.

Case in point you could probably just cut together meaningless out-of-context segments of action sequences, climactic moments and other emotionally charged bits from any shonen series, set it to Hans Zimmer music from any historical epic from the last decade and anime fans will unanimously declare that to be the superior "trailer" because they understand the context of each clip and they already know what the significance of it all is.

A trailer is a marketing tool, not a best-of clip show designed to wow people who have already seen what you're trying to sell. Yeesh.


it should be noted that the fan made trailer is a teaser trailer and is not really supposed to show important plot details, and, is perhaps a poor comparison.

My whole point behind posting the whole trailer argument is that its fairly easy to make a good trailer, even with generic Hans Zimmer music, the FUNImation one did more to show what its about yes, but it was still not a very good trailer. Trailers should get you excited not bored, and not have an extremely annoying voice over throughout the whole thing.


Greed1914 wrote:
I doubt if the trailers are really to blame. Even if it's well made, it's pretty hard to get someone to plunk down $20 for a DVD from a show they've only seen a two minute mash up from.



you'd be surpsrised how many would, 20$ isn't that much more expensive than 8$, which millions of people pay to see a movie based on a 2 minute "mash" as you call it.


And you'd be surprised how many wouldn't. Many consumers are savvy. A commercial will only prompt such people to seek more information and then decide whether or not to pay. Sorry, but unless I actually know what it's about, no trailer is going to sell me anything. In essence, I'm saying that what constitutes a good trailer is a very subjective thing. Some seek information and others are looking for entertainment.


wow its amazing how you can read my post without actually reading my post.
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Unit 03.5-ish



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:50 am Reply with quote
Sometimes I still wonder how much water the "it makes some shows popular among the US crowd" argument still holds. Some series are destined for the US no matter how you slice it. Evangelion was something ADV knew was going to be a hit, CPM had one of its very rare strokes of genius with Lodoss, FUNi rode the coattails of DBZ to massive success, Viz struck gold with their partnership with Shonen Jump, Bandai can usually count on Gundam, I could go on. These are shows the companies were probably certain would spell international success for them, regardless of what fansubbers did.
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 3806
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:51 am Reply with quote
animehermit wrote:


wow its amazing how you can read my post without actually reading my post.


Feel free to explain your intricate point that I somehow missed, it'd certainly be better than basically saying, "Nope, wrong." As far as I can tell, your argument is that trailers should be entertaining. However, I propose that others seek information and in that way, both serve a different purpose and neither is good at doing both.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:07 am Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
animehermit wrote:


wow its amazing how you can read my post without actually reading my post.


Feel free to explain your intricate point that I somehow missed, it'd certainly be better than basically saying, "Nope, wrong." As far as I can tell, your argument is that trailers should be entertaining. However, I propose that others seek information and in that way, both serve a different purpose and neither is good at doing both.


the part where you assumed my position on trailers, i said trailers should be exciting, that doesn't mean they can't be informative. i have already discarded both videos i posted as poor examples, picked only because of my slow connection speed. Neither example is a good trailer, although the fan made one is a TEASER which is not meant to be informative, but i digress, we are getting rather off-topic with this.

BACK ON TOPIC:
Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

Sometimes I still wonder how much water the "it makes some shows popular among the US crowd" argument still holds. Some series are destined for the US no matter how you slice it. Evangelion was something ADV knew was going to be a hit, CPM had one of its very rare strokes of genius with Lodoss, FUNi rode the coattails of DBZ to massive success, Viz struck gold with their partnership with Shonen Jump, Bandai can usually count on Gundam, I could go on. These are shows the companies were probably certain would spell international success for them, regardless of what fansubbers did.


i would say it does for me personally, i will rarely buy i an anime i have not seen before, in fact, the only anime i have bought blindly would be Gantz, because i read the manga and loved that (this sort of turned me off to doing this)
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boyda



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:10 am Reply with quote
I know alot of people have used my arguments before but for me most of the situation is price. I mean seriously $40 dollars for at the most what 5 episodes Sad . Generally I do like to buy things and I have bought anime before ,but for the US audience to pay so much more for an item than it would really be worth. I've watched some extras and all that ,but I would think that if you cut half that crap out no one would notice and you could drop the price of a dvd/bluray of anime could you not? Also the idea of paying a site to watch a stream kind of irks me. If you don't pay you have to wait to watch it or in some cases you don't watch it all. I don't know much about streaming site because I generally don't use them but crunchyroll when I looked at it has quite a few series removed due to license due you gain access to these if you pay the membership? If not I'd rather stick to watching it for free.

Another thing that gets to me is quality I know even crunchy roll says its got higher quality ,but generally compared to using cccp or other good codec's streaming sites just don't compare anymore. At least for me. I know I get pretty stuck in how I like things and don't like change much ,but I seriously don't like the idea of almost 100% streaming.
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Unit 03.5-ish



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:20 am Reply with quote
Anyone who tries to wave the "it's too pricy for me" flag, there are ways to get these shows for VERY reasonable prices, these days.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:23 am Reply with quote
boyda wrote:
I know alot of people have used my arguments before but for me most of the situation is price. I mean seriously $40 dollars for at the most what 5 episodes Sad .


your grossly exaggerating the price of anime these days, almost all of the anime i buy come in box sets and most of them cost 40-50$ for a complete season (the only exception is Evangelion which i pent 58$ on)
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:24 am Reply with quote
I'd like to emphasize something a couple of other people have pointed out in this thread: a great many anime fans are not American. It doesn't make much of a difference to me if a show get released/broadcast in the US.

The whole movement to legally stream subtitled anime is definitely a good thing in my opinion. However, if they only stream shows like Naruto that are going to get licensed and broadcast on mainstream television anyway, they are not covering the same ground as fansubbers. There are many more obscure series coming out in Japan for which the only way to watch them subbed is through the use of fansubs.

Personally, I feel the Naruto-starved kids can wait a year or so for their show to be broadcast – just like I have to wait to see the latest season of Heroes here in South Africa. I would much rather see the anime on CrunchyRoll that I'm not as likely to get through other means. Of course, this might not be very practical in terms of business, but it does explain a little why you can't quite put fansubs out of the picture yet.

Casey wrote:
Personally, I imagine a future where anime has become utterly naturalized—and by naturalized I mean that American viewers cease to recognize a difference between "American" content and "Japanese" content. In the way that hamburgers and pizza become "American food," anime will just become a part of the fabric of "American television."

I know that what you meant when you said this was probably more along the lines of anime being completely mainstream and not just for a few fans... but the way you phrased it formed a picture in my mind of anime losing its distinguishing features and/or America taking credit for it. Please, no. That's a horrid, horrid vision.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:24 am Reply with quote
Unit 03.5-ish wrote:
Anyone who tries to wave the "it's too pricy for me" flag, there are ways to get these shows for VERY reasonable prices, these days.


Three shows out of a possible three hundred. Not everything is that cheap, or even readily available.
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 3806
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:26 am Reply with quote
boyda wrote:
I know alot of people have used my arguments before but for me most of the situation is price. I mean seriously $40 dollars for at the most what 5 episodes Sad . Generally I do like to buy things and I have bought anime before ,but for the US audience to pay so much more for an item than it would really be worth. I've watched some extras and all that ,but I would think that if you cut half that crap out no one would notice and you could drop the price of a dvd/bluray of anime could you not?


Where are you buying from? The MSRP on a DVD is typically $29.99 and most places sell them for less than $25.

animehermit wrote:

the part where you assumed my position on trailers, i said trailers should be exciting, that doesn't mean they can't be informative. i have already discarded both videos i posted as poor examples, picked only because of my slow connection speed

Then why not say that in the first place? The primary differences were that one was entertaining and one was simply informative, so what else are people to assume? Sure your connection might be slow, but if you're going to juxtapose two trailers, I'd suggest spending the necessary time to find a "good" one. Alright, I'm done with that.
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Unit 03.5-ish



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:29 am Reply with quote
walp, I totally understand. Most Geneon stuff is exorbitantly overpriced now due to it being OOP, and some other titles have gotten lost in the shuffle. But a great deal of US-licensed shows are available in wallet-friendly sets. I still don't see there being a valid excuse for downloading fansubs of a show that is legally available on US DVD.
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0utf0xZer0



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:33 am Reply with quote
Unit 03.5-ish wrote:
You have a problem with our resident Sith Lord's stance on them? Sheesh, you can't please some people.

"Relevant"? "Some shows won't get licensed"? Be thankful for what DOES get licensed. The stuff that comes here is sometimes quality, sometimes crap. I bet more crap gets left over in Japan, and for one I'm thankful that the majority of awful moe and dating sim and boring romance shows don't make the journey across the ocean. That or the shows are so steeped in Japanese culture it wouldn't be enjoyable for an American audience anyway...but you can't please everyone, can you?


Not everyone here considers all moe/romance/dating sim/general niche anime crap. I'm glad there are groups that still sub niche shows like Kurenai, EF, and Spice and Wolf, because they titles interested me far more than anything that I've seen get licensed this year (okay, Spice and Wolf is a grey area... there is a company that owns the US license, but until they sign someone up to produce an US DVD I consider it, "in limbo").

Dop.L's example of Simoun as a show that fansubs built a market for is actually a really good one, since it's an example of a show that I bought specifically because I loved it on fansub.

There are actually a few older shows offered for streaming that I'm interested in, but I'm not dropping fansubs until there's a better selection of stuff I like on streaming.

animehermit wrote:

I will have to agree with you here, some altercations have to be made its just the nature of the two languages. As long as those "altercations" don't go so far as censorship, and/or changing major plot/character details for no reason.


I like some level of localization, but there's some shows that just get butchered in translation. School Rumble is a good example... my brother and I got the DVDs because we wanted to support the creators (which is the usual reason behind most of my hundreds in R1 spending anyway), and I'll just say that I thought that Funimation localized some of the jokes into irrelevance. Having seen the fansub, it just wasn't funny anymore.

Edit: I do like one recent move I've seen from R1 companies, though, and that's starting to release half and full season box sets rather than individual discs. If you ever tried to pay shipping for individual R1s from the US, you know why I find this a big deal. I like my money going to the anime creators, not shipping firms.
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Redbeard 101
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:48 am Reply with quote
I found this weeks article to be very informational and well done. Highly looking forward to part two next week. The one thing I want to mention and touch on is the very last comment by Cloe/Sara:

Quote:
Sara: Fansubs of new Naruto episodes, for sure. But what 14-year-old is looking for Dr. Slump and Heidi? In a broader sense, I can't speak for everyone, but my introduction to anime was through U.S. distribution means, not through fansubs. Those are something I discovered after the fact.

This brings up one of the oldest arguments for fansubs. Beyond bring unlicensed or old shows over to the fans the other big selling point I feel has always been the "fansubs will help acquire more fans and get more people into anime" line. I have always thought this is a load of horse poo for the very reason Sara mentioned. How many people here got into anime through fansubs vs other means? How many of you became fans after randomly discovering fansubs or being lead to them as opposed to word of mouth? Almost every friend I know that likes anime got into it by word of mouth and by watching it at a friend's house, on tv, or by borrowing a vhs/dvd from a friend. Not from fansubs. Out of all the arguments for fansubs I have always felt this one was for the most part silly and totally offbase. I mean in most cases how would someone even know to look for fansubs unless they had already become interested in anime through other means? I would love for ANN to make a poll around this idea and ask people how exactly they did discover anime. Was it through fansubs or some other means such as borrowing from a friend or word of mouth?

The other thing I would agree with is her notion that most current fans would NOT be as interested in the older titles as they are the newest episodes of whatever shonen jump show is the craze right now. Most just want the newest biggest shows and they want it now cause they can't wait. Majority could care less about most shows pre-1995 and even less about shows pre-1990. I would also go so far as to say IMHO the fans who ARE interested in older shows would more then likely rather simply own the show on dvd so they had a hard copy. These are the fans that by in large are the bigger spenders and the ones buying more anime. They are the ones who I think would not only watch fansubs of the older shows but cut off their own grandmother on the highway to get to the store to buy a copy ASAP.
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letniinside



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:53 am Reply with quote
Its ridiculous that the conversation are too long to read, my eyes popped out after a few paragraphs.

REALITY CHECK EVERYONE!
Here's the 7 aspects how to get an anime the legal & illegal way!
I group them according to their description, & arrange it according to Class Quality!

A. Japanese DVD - It is the most RAWEST form, with the highest quality as possible present there is. No touch up like those English DVDs, no cut scenes nor censorship. With additional extra scenes.
Consider as CLASS S for those truly an Anime fan at OTAKU LEVEL.

B. Japanese TV RAW ripped - These are anime in its rawest form. The difference of it from the Japanese DVD are the cut scenes, censorship, & TV commercials.
Considered as CLASS A for those Anime fans who are at the NEAR OTAKU LEVEL who cant wait for the DVD to come out.

C. FANSUBS - are a group of individuals (fans) of an anime doing subtitle to the highest quality as possible incorporating several subtitling techniques like attractive & enjoyable karaoke effects & providing supplemental notes and maintaining the director's & producers' true intention on executing the essence of the anime.
The non-anime & anime fans will be aided during the process of watching the anime as supplemental notes.
The REAL true purpose of FANSUBS (early years):
1. Promote an unknown anime to the world, building up fans.
2. Subs an anime that its impossible to be brought to the world (eg LOGH)
3. Fansubs provide supplemental notes that aid fans as they watch the anime. They even provide translation of several background signs, others to the extend of superimposing it to the signs.
4. They provide further explanation especially "puns"
5. (later on) Fansubs serves as the preserver of the "true essence" of the anime. Fans seen a lot of English (R1) dvd are much like disappointed. Several changes in the English script, difficult pun turn to unrelated to anime english joke, etc... list goes on. Plus the ecchi genre animes are too horrible in English dubbed. English dubbed of ecchi is comparable to American cheap, over the top acting PORn.

Here's way to find out why.
If you're not a fansub fan:
1. Get your R1 DvD (if possible, early R1 dvd back then).
2. Play it Using English Dubbed with the English subbed. You can observed that there are some changes even the content intended changes.
3. For Japanese dubbed, with English subtitle... if you understand some Japanese terms, you can tell that they uses some plain English translations than the Japanese intended to execute.
If you're a fansub fans.
1. Get your R1 DVD.
2. Play it in English dubbed & english subs.
3. Play the fansubs too, at the same time.
4. Compare. Fansubs are superior, maintaining the essence of the anime where the R1, some have changes, etc.
Fansubs are irreplaceable, too early to become obsolete.
But if the Legit owner really want to, they should
1. Be or more like fansubs (attractive karaoke with special effects subs, supplemental notes, good translation, etc)
2. English dubbed airs at the same time with Japan to the world.
3. I know its possible, the R1 DVD should be available before it airs in Japan
Fansubs Are considered as CLASS B for TRULY ANIME FANS, maintaining the True Essence of an anime as close as posibble to its RAWEST FORM, in Japanese.

D. Anime R1 DVD-Rippers these are individuals as the name implies ripping R1 DVDs available sometimes with multilingual dubbed. These are the true illegal groups, not the fansubs. Sometimes these groups provide their own subs because the subs & the dubbed provided by R1 dvds are BIG disappointment. These are the groups that is slightly comparable to the ever elusive AXXO.
Considered as CLASS C for TRULY ANIME FANS, because they provide some subs that are as close to its RAWEST form.

E. English DVD (R1)
The English dubbed. I've tried several times the experiment I mention above. Im not a big fan of English dubbed. Why is it that theres always a GAY sounding characters even the characters are not GAY. The cyborg/robot voice is too genericly GAY/annoying. Majority of the English dub sounds cartoony & cheesy, stereotypically leveled anime to cartoon level. The teasing part, japanese "teasing" are erotic compare to the English dubbed sounds cheap & like im about to throw up. Some pun are erased are replace with non anime related line/joke. Ill just leave my hatred to English dubbed here, because if I continue, I'll consume several paragraphs.
Considered As CLASS D for TRULY ANIME FANS. The integrity of the Anime is pretty much murdered & butchered to cater the Western-loving shallow anime individuals.

F. English dubbed Tv Anime.
Description from above paragraph + censorship + commercial
Considered as CLASS E, intended for those indivual who die happy just by watching this.

G. Streamed Anime (CRunchy Roll, Youtube, BOST, alike)
These are CHEAP streaming, video quality is awful, but the disappointing part is the translation & subtitle quality. Its subquality. No karaoke effects, supplemental notes etc. Not very much like fansubs.
Considered as CLASS F for FAILURE for a TRULY ANIME FANS. You can see Failure all over the streamed videos.


Im not promoting fansubs but its a good way to have them, especially in aiding you in watching & loving the anime providing you additional information that the R1 FAILED to bring. I know its somewhat illegal. I also bought R1 DVDs for COLLECTION SAKE.
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