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NEWS: Iowa Trial over Allegedly Obscene Manga Delayed


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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:20 pm Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:
Obscenity can and does play a role for problems in people's lives.

How does your self-acknowledged interest in obscene hentai impact my life? Seriously, how?

fighterholic wrote:
You can say things about Bush all you want but in reality he directly has nothing to do with this case.

Actually the President has a lot to do with picking the Attorney General, who then directs the Justice Department on enforcement initiatives.

Quote:
When FBI supervisors in Miami met with new interim U.S. Attorney Alex Acosta last month, they wondered what the top enforcement priority for Acosta and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales would be. Would it be terrorism? Organized crime? Narcotics trafficking? Immigration? Or maybe public corruption? The agents were stunned to learn that a top prosecutorial priority of Acosta and the Department of Justice was none of the above. Instead, Acosta told them, it's obscenity. Not pornography involving children, but pornographic material featuring consenting adults. His own prosecutors have warned Acosta that prioritizing adult porn would reduce resources for prosecuting other crimes, including porn involving children. According to high-level sources who did not want to be identified, Acosta has assigned prosecutors porn cases over their objections.

Acosta, who told the Daily Business Review last month that prosecuting obscenity was a priority for Gonzales, did not return calls for comment. "Compared to terrorism, public corruption and narcotics, [pornography] is no worse than dropping gum on the sidewalk," said Stephen Bronis, a partner at Zuckerman Spaeder in Miami and chair of the white-collar crime division of the American Bar Association. "With so many other problems in this area, this is absolutely ridiculous." But not everyone agrees. With the rapid growth of Internet pornography, stamping out obscene material has become a major concern for the Bush administration's powerful Christian conservative supporters. The Mississippi-based American Family Association and other Christian conservative groups have pressured the Justice Department to take action against pornography. The family association has sent weekly letters to U.S. attorneys around the country to pressure them to pursue the makers and distributors of pornography.


http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125318960389
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bleuster



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 455
Location: Orange County
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:47 pm Reply with quote
So, the guy who was supposed to get the doujin is getting the hammer, but what about the guy that shipped it?
Is the fact that this item was created and distributed originally in Japan is being acknowledged in the courts at all?
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:53 pm Reply with quote
bleuster wrote:
So, the guy who was supposed to get the doujin is getting the hammer, but what about the guy that shipped it?
Is the fact that this item was created and distributed originally in Japan is being acknowledged in the courts at all?

In this case it's the receiver who bears the responsibility for prohibited materials shipped into the US and Japanese law has no direct impact on the outcome of this trial. In past years the Supreme Court referred to the rulings of trials in other countries but that has become more and more rare over the years as the court has shifted to the right.
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jsyxx





PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:31 pm Reply with quote
Being a conservative (especially socially conservative) and an anime fan has to be pretty far up in the hypocrisy scale. Seriously, you guys defending Bush and the idea of limiting free speech should find a new hobby.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:50 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
fighterholic wrote:
Obscenity can and does play a role for problems in people's lives.

How does your self-acknowledged interest in obscene hentai impact my life? Seriously, how?

How does your ignorance and unconcern for other people impact my life? And who said it was my life we were talking about? Time and time again obscene situations have been known to ruin other people's lives and their families as well. They end up not spending time with their families, and instead keep being addicted to obscenity. Maybe you haven't had to deal with it, and you probably don't even give a rat's ass either. The fact of the matter is, it's real.
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Cait



Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 503
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:49 pm Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:

How does your ignorance and unconcern for other people impact my life? And who said it was my life we were talking about? Time and time again obscene situations have been known to ruin other people's lives and their families as well. They end up not spending time with their families, and instead keep being addicted to obscenity. Maybe you haven't had to deal with it, and you probably don't even give a rat's ass either. The fact of the matter is, it's real.


I'm curious to know what "obscene" situations have caused the "ruin" of people's entire lives. The wording of your claims here is very awkward, since "obscenity" by its definition is something that is "beyond reproach," as in, it is so utterly disgusting, improper or immoral that no human being should have to be subjected to it (therefore justifying its banning). The issue at hand in the Handley case is whether or not the manga volumes he received in the mail were, in fact, "obscene," not whether they were pornographic (which I assume we all agree they probably were) or whether or not he allowed any "addiction" to such things "ruin" his or anyone else's life by making him or anyone else addicted to them.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4566
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:33 am Reply with quote
J-Syxx wrote:
Being a conservative (especially socially conservative) and an anime fan has to be pretty far up in the hypocrisy scale. Seriously, you guys defending Bush and the idea of limiting free speech should find a new hobby.

No offense, but exactly what does being a conservative have to do with being an anime fan, or even with defending Bush? I'm genuinely curious to know.
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N15PCA



Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 37
Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:42 am Reply with quote
Speak of cases here one, In 2000, Larry Peterman of Provo, UT was charged with selling obscene material at his chain of video stores. A jury found him not guilty as the defense showed that residents of the town were disproportionately large consumers of the very materials Peterman was selling. If you do the math that case would have fallening under the Clinton administration. I don't think it part of Clinton fault. I just think it has to with some local people over steping they bounds.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:52 am Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:
daxomni wrote:
fighterholic wrote:
Obscenity can and does play a role for problems in people's lives.

How does your self-acknowledged interest in obscene hentai impact my life? Seriously, how?

How does your ignorance and unconcern for other people impact my life? And who said it was my life we were talking about? Time and time again obscene situations have been known to ruin other people's lives and their families as well. They end up not spending time with their families, and instead keep being addicted to obscenity. Maybe you haven't had to deal with it, and you probably don't even give a rat's ass either. The fact of the matter is, it's real.


No, the fact of the matter is it's real only to those who think it's real. Ultimately this all has to do with people's beliefs. Just look around the world to see all of the great differences in what people consider moral and immoral, of what's taboo and what's not. If its impact were a universal truth as you make it to be, then one would only need to find someone who isn't impacted by this to disprove your assertion.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:06 am Reply with quote
N15PCA wrote:
I'll start out has saying I'm a Republican. Last time I check this was court case that is happing at state level not the federal one. Lets stick to the issue at hand and let's hope this man is found not guilty. I just get sick and tired of Bush bashing when Bush has nothing to do with this case. He isn't even in office anymore.

I am in independent conservative, more right-leaning than left, mostly because those on the left are generally arrogant and elitist about their supposed intellectual and cultural superiority (there I said it).

The level of court is irrelevant. Obscenity cases are organized and pursued by a coalition of agencies including federal. When the federal government focuses on obscenity, the locals bring action. Rarely otherwise. The specific crimes, whether state or federal or city, that have potentially been violated, and the specific court, judges, etc, will determine where the case is tried. Since federal law leaves the majority of legislation and enforcement to localities, you will nearly always see such cases tried at a local or state level.

This case against a California company was tried in Florida, for a perfect example (also an example of entrapment by the USPS, which appears to be legal in this instance):
Porn trial more than a simple smut case

This is all purely political, again because is obscenity is a victimless crime and only illegal in this country on moral grounds--the supposed right of me going into your bedroom to tell you what you can and cannot do by yourself.

For rather Orwellian shades of fascistic furvor, here's a good place to start (these are people you don't want to know):
Obscenity Prosecution Task Force

If you want a summary political/agency history starting with Reagan, though from a decidedly conservative point of view:
2008 Presidential Election Impact On Obscenity Law Enforcement
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:36 pm Reply with quote
N15PCA wrote:
I just get sick and tired of Bush bashing when Bush has nothing to do with this case. He isn't even in office anymore.


What universe do you live in that the cogs of society move faster than a snail's pace?
2 weeks.
We are 2 weeks into the new presidency.
It will take a good 2 months for anything to really take & , considering the mess we're in, much, much longer is more realistic. The policies of Bush's administration will continue to grind along until they are specifically changed so it will be business as usual under the Bush Administration until all these chiefs & heads of staffs & secretaries, etc Obama has selected can get into their various offices & actually change the policies.
I'm so amazed at people jumping up & down that Obama's approval rating has dropped 19 points in 2 weeks. What were people thinking? He was going to wave his hand & POOF things wold be better?
So sadly, this case is still falling under the jurisdiction of the existing powers. MAYBE if there has been a change of power at the last election in that area, things would be different--a new prosecutor or judge might drop the case, but considering everyone says this is a federal case, we are dealing with federal prosecutors put in place by prior administrations, are we not? Possibly by Bush?
Remember in the '80's when we had all that attention on child abuse & the maybe overbearing lean toward prosecuting child abusers? Stories from kids of their tormentors killing a giraffe being believed? Don't we need a bit of rationality somewhere? Yes, child abuse should be prosecuted, but kids do have a rich fantasy life. Just to prove it to my husband I asked my then 6 or 7 yr old if she saw the gorilla ride a bike up the telephone pole-yeah! What was it wearing? A pink tutu. And testimonies like these were locking people up.
All you guys worked up over the child porn side--do you watch fictional shows, read fictional stories? Does your reading about a murder make you want to go out & commit a similar murder? Does reading about a crime make you gather up your cronies to commit a siliar crime? For all the gamers, do you plan to go out & imitate the actions of any of the games you played this week?
So why is it always assumed people that look at porn of adults ot children have to follow up their viewing with real actions?
Actual criminals are different. Most people know stuff is wrong & they don't do it. Catharsis-get it out of their system BY playing games or reading/watching stuff. (Face it, we all have deep dark fantasies. Yes, they vary from person to person. One person might dream of running a red light. Another might want to bathe in caviar. Another might dream of rape/pillage/plunder. I knew a mother of 3 who said she always dreamed of finding herself a 15-16 yr old teen & teaching him sex so he'd know how to do it right-meaning please her. These are fantasies most of us don't act on) Criminals know it's wrong & do it anyway. They either want to be caught or they believe they are too good at what they do to get caught.
I work in law enforcement myself & we have had about 4 directors in the time I've worked here & with each director, the "goals" of the office shift. Yes, we're always enforcing laws, but each director has had his own little pet projects he felt needed to be brought to the front of the line. Sometimes the focus is drugs. Other times abuse. Do we monitor based on the types of crimes or the number of crimes? The director/chief decides that.
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:04 pm Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:
And who said it was my life we were talking about?

When you came in here and joined the discussion you brought your own history of blatant hypocrisy with you.

fighterholic wrote:
They end up not spending time with their families, and instead keep being addicted to obscenity.

Why is this the government's problem? Why is our Justice Department involved in such nonsense when there are so many other real crimes with real victims to be resolved?

fighterholic wrote:
The fact of the matter is, it's real.

The fact of the matter is that my tax dollars shouldn't be wasted "saving" you from your own personal collection of obscene fictional characters. That's your problem, not ours.

Before you reply again I challenge you to read up on the positions of John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzales, and Michael Mukasey toward obscenity prosecutions and compare them to, say, Janet Reno. Be sure to also note who appointed each of these people. It might open up your mind just a tiny little bit and give you a sense of understanding you may not have possessed previously.

Don't fear knowledge, embrace it!
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:48 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
When you came in here and joined the discussion you brought your own history of blatant hypocrisy with you.

Well hey, at least I tell the truth then.

daxomni wrote:
Why is this the government's problem? Why is our Justice Department involved in such nonsense when there are so many other real crimes with real victims to be resolved?

When did I say that it was a crime that we were dealing with? The matter of obscenity is a social problem, not a crime.

daxomni wrote:
The fact of the matter is that my tax dollars shouldn't be wasted "saving" you from your own personal collection of obscene fictional characters. That's your problem, not ours.

You know what dax, you're right. We shouldn't be wasting our tax dollars on this kind of thing. We should just be pumping it into the government while they kill people instead.

daxomni wrote:
Before you reply again I challenge you to read up on the positions of John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzales, and Michael Mukasey toward obscenity prosecutions and compare them to, say, Janet Reno. Don't fear knowledge, embrace it!

Oh wow, you're absolutely right! It's so blatant that I'm shaking my head. What would you expect from people of their political affiliations? Of course when there's going to be comparisons of the conservatives to the liberals then you're going to favor the side that appeals to your beliefs. In which case, you favor Janet Reno. That's not a hard one to figure out Rolling Eyes
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:58 pm Reply with quote
So we're in agreement then that partisan politics can play a surprisingly large role in who gets prosecuted and why. Good, I'm glad we got that out of the way. I see a lot of people who think this case should be thrown out, so maybe more anime fans will take this into consideration the next time they go to the polls and vote for someone who's willing and able to take a bite out of their personal freedoms. Thankfully, issues like these are documented and it's just a matter of taking the time to educate yourself on who stands for what.

Now here's something new that caught my eye...
Salon.com wrote:
Feb 4th, 2009 | NEW YORK -- Amazon.com Inc. is being investigated by the U.S. Postal Service, the online retailer disclosed in the annual report it recently filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. In the Jan. 29 filing, Seattle-based Amazon said it learned in January that postal inspectors are investigating the company's "compliance with postal service rules." The company said it is cooperating, but provided no elaboration. Amazon spokeswoman Patty Smith had no comment. Peter Rendina, an inspector in the Postal Service's law enforcement arm, said the investigation is ongoing, but he declined further comment.
Link...
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:07 pm Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:

How does your ignorance and unconcern for other people impact my life? And who said it was my life we were talking about? Time and time again [INSERT VICE OF ONE'S CHOICE] have been known to ruin other people's lives and their families as well. They end up not spending time with their families, and instead keep being addicted to obscenity. Maybe you haven't had to deal with it, and you probably don't even give a rat's ass either. The fact of the matter is, it's real.


Gambling, alcohol, drugs, gaming, internet chats, pick a hobby

ANY OBSESSION is destructive, even Sesame Street. If one person eats, breathes, sleeps Big Bird to the exclusion of family & friends, family & friends suffer. Isn't the age-old reason for any marriage failing is one partner loses interest in the other? "You spend too much time in the garage!" "You spend too much time with your friends!" When I was a child (1960's & 70's) the norm was mom home with the kids & dad working himself into an early grave.
And yes, "You spend too much time at the office" was another divorce excuse.

Fact is, porn isn't the demon you're making it out to be by a long shot. Addictive personalities are addictive personalities be it gambling or Harry Potter or porn. The vast majority of people can (& do) utilize porn in a reasonable fashion while the addicts are addicts.
It's the dif between the person who can have a beer after work & the person who drinks from the moment they get up & most people who can take or leave alcohol or drugs or sex-80% or so of the population-are thus unable to see the harm & thus why the need to ban it. Why should I pay for some guy who can't keep his hands off porn? Most people I know cannot comprehend people who are addicted to an item. They think it's simply a matter of walking away when it's not.

So if you're railing against porn, you better rail against everything. Let's wrap the world in bubble-wrap. Better end tv, movies, music, art & literature because someone might become obsessed with Heath Ledger as The Joker or Harry Potter or Transformers. Next thing you know, they'll spend every waking hour in the garage trying to build their own super robot, or they'll die jumping off a cliff on their broom.
Someone obsessed with Jesus might crucify themselves. It all has to go.
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