Forum - View topicThe origins of Fullmetal Alchemist?
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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I loved Arakawa's Fullmetal Alchemist and used to think it was original, creative and mature show (almost too mature for its audience). But then I read Karakuri Circus by Kazuhiro Fujita, and saw the same themes, the same ideas and the same sensibility. Not just "similar", but exactly the same. The worlds are different, and I greatly appreciate Arakawa in that regard, and the artstyles are vastly different, but I can't shake off the feeling that Silver Spoon is the real Arakawa, and in the case of FMA she was told what to do. (And she did an excellent job, yes.)
So, I would like to hear other opinions, but only from people who have read both works. There was a conversation between Fujita and Arakawa, published in one issue of Eureka (Yuriika), Japanese mook for "poetry and criticism", and named "The theory and practice of shonen-manga", and I am very interested in what they were talking about. |
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gsilver
Posts: 615 |
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The Simpsons Already Did it.
Name any work, and you can probably also name 5 things that inspired it, whether intentional or not. It's hard to argue that there are original ideas in this day and age, with anything conceivable already explored elsewhere. Themes of homunculi, and the law of conservation of matter have been around a lot longer than Fujita. Manga authors don't have as much say over their works as many fans would like to admit. Manga is foremost a commercial product, guided by those with financial clout (ie, the publishers). Having proven herself a good author working under the constrains of the more typical shounen formula, it is understandable that she'd get more creative control over her next work. None of this is bad, per se, it simply is. If creators get too much say over their own work, you can run into creators like George Lucas, who needed other people to rein them in, but were influential enough to avoid it. And no, I haven't read Karakuri Circus, so I can't say how close the works are, but this is likely a case of "The Simpsons Already Did It." ...and you can probably find equally strong influences on Karakuri Circus from prior works. Maybe from multiple sources, but I'd be surprised if they weren't there. |
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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I haven't meant to start a discussion about originality and freedom in the modern-day entertainment industry and art - that has been just a question concerning FMA.
Yes, I can easily see some of the influences on the Fujita's works: Daijiro Morohoshi, Rumiko Takahashi (but she was also influenced by Morohoshi), maybe Fujita's former master, Fujihiko Hosono, Ghost in the Shell, and many images are borrowed from commedia dell'arte. Then, there are surely some I am not aware of. You've mentioned "a typical shonen formula", but, let's say that there are several "schools" of shonen comics, and Fujita is the master of one of them, with special brand of humour, tragedy and action mixed together, and I have seen it so well done in no other title, except FMA. The same sensibility. Furthermore, we have: - alchemy - a search for the Philosopher's stone - artificial beings who want to become more human - parents who use their children in "scientific" experiments spoiler[ - hero with artificial hand - father of one of the protagonists has a key role in making the stone] There is much more to both works, of course, and the plots are different enough, which, together with the different artstyles and worlds, makes them pretty different in general, but there is enough here to speculate whether Karakuri Circus was the primary influence on Arakawa at that time. Especially since they were almost contemporaries - Fujita disclosed his main plot just a few years before FMA started. I am not bashing Arakawa or FMA in any way. Some fans do not care about these things, and it's OK, but I like to know them. 
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Based on the points you made... I don't really see the connection. It's often easy to tie two different titles together by some common plotpoints or charactertypes, but that doesn't mean one copied the other. More often than not, titles have common 'ancestors', but that doesn't mean they're directly related. The more fiction you read/watch/play/hear, the more obvious it becomes.
For example, I'm pretty sure Suzanne Collins never played Wild ARMs 5, yet I can easily list that game and The Hunger Games have in common (one of them includes kids being thrown into an lethal arena in the name of television).
That's kind of insulting. Hand a basic storyline to a dozen mangaka and you'll get a dozen different stories. Take humour, that's very personal. You can't really imitate is. Or what about pacing? The way characters are portrayed? Sure, some mangaka share sensibilities, but that doesn't mean they copied them. It's not something you can copy. |
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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I don't have time to reply in detail, but here are a few notions:
And what's the point of comparing this case with Arakawa, who probably knew Fujita's work very well?
And that's the point, really, but not in the way you've meant it to be. Arakawa's humour (in FMA) is often forced and not "funny" at all. I've never used the word "rip-off" here. And the question is: was Karakuri Circus the greatest INFLUENCE on Arakawa's FMA? It was or it wasn't (or maybe something in between) and no discussion about ethics and the nature of creative process is going to change that. Even I am not 100% sure, and that's the reason why I've started this thread. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Is there really a good chance she knows his work that well? Most mangaka don't read a lot of manga. They simply don't have the time. Anyway, I was trying to point out it's fairly easy to make a connect two very different works with just some tropes and perhaps even make it look convincing. That doesn't mean there's actually a connection.
I can't remember many forced jokes, aside from some slapstick moments in the first few books (when Arakawa probably didn't have as much skill and creative control as in say volume 10 and up). And the 'short' jokes are a matter of taste, I think. I know some people who love them, but I prefer the darker jokes that often filled up the extra pages.
Reread your first post:
In order for something to be exactly the same, it has to be carefully copied, right? I'm not saying Kazuhiro Fujita can't have been an influence, but I think you're jumping to conclusions and exaggerating the similarities. You love FMA, see something familiar in a slightly older series and start searching for more similarities, and end up with a list that contains some pretty common ideas such as 'artificial limbs', 'philosopher's stone' and 'alchemy' that have been combined before. And instead of giving the differences a fair look, you conclude 'this is what my favourite series must be based on!' |
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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Fair enough! Except one thing. Maybe you know more about my motives than I do, but as far as I am aware, FMA has never been one of my favourite series, and Arakawa has never been one of my favourite mangaka. I'll admit that maybe I have used too strong words in my description of the first impression, but, on the other hand, you are ignoring the other parts in my messages in which I admit the two works are pretty different in some aspects. There is a description of Karakuri Circus in French, calling it "FMA" (France, marionettes, alchemy). And, if you google the words "Hagaren" and "Karakuri Circus" in Japanese, you'll get a "Fullmetal Alchemist = Karakuri Circus" theory, which describes the first as a reconstruction of the other, while being fully aware of the differences between the two. As the writer noticed, Arakawa is the light, and Fujita is the darkness (which is always more interesting to me). And about mangaka not reading other people's manga... that's a sort of myth. I do own many interviews with many of them (several hundreds or more, but not even one with Arakawa) and never noticed that they don't read in general (there are exceptions, of course). And that's not even important in our discussion, because they surely must have read something in their formative period or they wouldn't be able to draw anything. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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You said you loved it, so I assumed it was one of your favourites.
Someone came up with a clever little abbreviation to describe the series, clearly this is all the evidence we will ever need.
Theories like that are fun, but both series ran simultaniously for five years or so. When FMA started, only a third or so of Karakuri Circus was out. Either Arakawa managed to reconstruct a still ongoing story while keeping up with regular manga deadlines and even doing additional work, or she's a timelord. Well, or a Bakuman character. [quote] And about mangaka not reading other people's manga... that's a sort of myth. I do own many interviews with many of them (several hundreds or more, but not even one with Arakawa) and never noticed that they don't read in general (there are exceptions, of course). [quote] Sure, most read atleast some, but in general they simply don't have the time to be avid readers. I've seen plenty of mangaka mention they don't read nearly as much as they used to.
Why wouldn't it be relevant? We're talking about the odds that Arakawa kept up with Karakuri, a series that started merely two years before she went pro herself. Arakawa being from 1973, I imagine the manga from her formative years ran mid to late eighties. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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freak forum accident - please ignore
Last edited by Tamaria on Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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Tamaria--
Your last post is, um, confusing. May I trouble you to edit it for clarification?
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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The last post was a doublepost in which all the contents of the previous post was put in a quote box. The original post makes perfect sense to me.
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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I have absolutely no idea what happened there... O_O
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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That was the revenge of the puppet masters of the Midnight Circus, whose machine-communicating skills are second to none!
This topic is not going anywhere in the present state, so:
This is crucial for any further discussion. I'll try to get a copy of Eureka before the end of the year, and we'll see. |
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