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Barachem wrote:

The talk shouldn't be about whether or not to tolerate/allow fansubs, the talk should be about how to effectively obsolete/marginalize fansubs by proper marketing from the anime industry.

Here is a reason why fansubs will continue to exist: it's called the FCC.

OZ-13MS wrote:

Barachem wrote:

The talk shouldn't be about whether or not to tolerate/allow fansubs, the talk should be about how to effectively obsolete/marginalize fansubs by proper marketing from the anime industry.

Here is a reason why fansubs will continue to exist: it's called the FCC.

How does the Federal Communication Commission have to do with the continued existence of fansubs?

LordRedhand wrote:

OZ-13MS wrote:

Barachem wrote:

The talk shouldn't be about whether or not to tolerate/allow fansubs, the talk should be about how to effectively obsolete/marginalize fansubs by proper marketing from the anime industry.

Here is a reason why fansubs will continue to exist: it's called the FCC.

How does the Federal Communication Commission have to do with the continued existence of fansubs?

Just a theory but for anime to be televise within 24 to 72 hrs of a Japanese broadcast it has to be FCC compliant. A majority of Fansub groups will cease subbing televise shows because of such availability. And if shows don't meet FCC regulations then there will be no 24-72 hr broadcasts releases and fansub groups will continue with subbing anime.

Well looking for a 24 to 72 hour turn around time from Japanese TV to US TV is a little unrealistic. To my knowledge, the only series that achieved that was Big O season 2 and that was becuase cartoon network was involved. But with the subtitles, there is a 24 to 72 hour time for legitimate streams so I don't see the FCC to be a problem ti this turn around time, also doesn't the FCC just do broadcast television, that satellite and cable don't have to do so?

And if most fansub groups stop when a series is televised, then why can I find or have people discuss even in this article Naruto, Bleach or One Piece fansubs?

LordRedhand wrote:

OZ-13MS wrote:

Barachem wrote:

The talk shouldn't be about whether or not to tolerate/allow fansubs, the talk should be about how to effectively obsolete/marginalize fansubs by proper marketing from the anime industry.

Here is a reason why fansubs will continue to exist: it's called the FCC.

How does the Federal Communication Commission have to do with the continued existence of fansubs?

Admittedly I don't know much about the US ratings system but wouldn't the FCC be responsible for the dialogue edits/censorship in some anime? That's what I came up with....at least.

I rarely watch a series more than twice but always purchase series boxsets if I really enjoyed it. I do use fansubs a lot when trying new series - the amount of new series is phenomenal and almost impossible to try out by buying DVDs or streaming via CR when their streaming is so dodgy for those beyond the US.

* If R4 DVDs were made cheaper (here a 3-4 episode DVD is about AUD$30 and they don't always have good extras, maybe a clean OP/ED if lucky) I would buy more.
* If there was a decent AU streaming site for a monthly $10-20 fee I would use it, but at the moment I'm hoping to get a house soon and am living in a really small space.
* Shelf space is limited so only truly good series will make it there.
* Most series I start in sub I scrap partway through due to boredom or if I like it I'll buy the soundtracks or DVDs when they're released here.

I also agree with above suggestions that marketing must be improved. I buy anime to watch in Japanese. I don't watch the dubs so why must I be charged extra for the privilege? Bonuses with early presses/Limited Editions are nice and would even out this frustration of mine: "I have this useless dub but hey! I got a free figure!"
First Press/Limited bonuses can be provided at minimal cost--just look at Japanese CDs. If we had more Limited Edition sets here like the US versions of Haruhi (we only got the arm band as a bonus for buying the box with vol 1) then I'd buy more anime DVDs closer to their release date.

Broader marketing towards fans is what's needed to hold the interest of the more dedicated anime fans who already have to wait months or years to see their favourite series officially hit their shores.

And I'm rambling.... Embarassed

I an effort to keep the topic on track, I will not make any of the "anti-fansub" comments that I might have made in relation to this discussion. Let's all also make an effort not to take the bait of anyone grandstanding (on either side of the debate) and veering off-course.

Anyway, I think the issue of "merchandising" as a different revenue direction for anime companies is interesting, but I don't know that it will render fansubs obsolete on its own. Taking from the new US theatre industry business model (which is having the opposite retention problem: the audience is diminishing as new technologies replace it and the current audience is growing older), staying afloat financially is often a matter of broadening the ways in which income is received (in theatre there are educational programs, touring shows, and even building and sub-letting retail space adjascent to the physical buildings). Any number of "other" things, besides producing anime, could help keep the industry in financial green, but the other side of that is risk. Anime companies seem notoriously unskilled as business-people and mistakes and failures are always possible.

Then there is the concern that licensed anime will go back to pre-1998--all kids shows-- because that's the only place where the merchandising is going to help float them. In regional theatre, the model that is often used is to have one big money-drawing show for the year that will invariably fund the rest of the non-profitable, artsy shows the rest of the year, much like what FUNimation and Viz do with their "flagship" licenses. I don't know how practical a business model it is, however, since the regional theatre model is a not-for-profit business model and the R1 industry model is a commercial for-profit model. I have to wonder about the success of such a business model, but time will see if digital distribution helps at least curb interest in illegal downloading of anime.

I am just glad getfresh didn't make up excuses for Maria. He acknowledged what he was doing was wrong.

You go to sleep and it's already 2 pages in. Well, better late than never.

Merchandising is certainly a big factor in Japan, but how much of that swag makes it here? Not enough for the R1 companies to profit from it. In the US industry, at least, figures from ancillary items from the show are insignificant unless it's, say, a Shonen Jump show. So again, the revenue has to be almost exclusively from the DVDs over here. That makes it even harder for US companies to turn a profit. If fansubs cut into the number of DVDs sold, that means even LESS sales for an already niche industry. Cycle of viciousness, and such.

KendoGirl wrote:

I also agree with above suggestions that marketing must be improved. I buy anime to watch in Japanese. I don't watch the dubs so why must I be charged extra for the privilege? Bonuses with early presses/Limited Editions are nice and would even out this frustration of mine: "I have this useless dub but hey! I got a free figure!"

Once again, this topic is not about "EL OH EL I HATE DUBZ", it's about the impact of fansubs on the industry. Sigh...

"Also, it's not really my job as a fan to bring new people into the anime fold, frankly."

Hmm, I have to mostly agree with Sara about it being a"job" (or responsibility), but I do think it's a practice that shouldn't be discouraged. Let's face it, with anime being shown less and less on TV (Monday nights with Sci-Fi and Saturday nights with Adult Swim is about it), there's only so much exposure they can get out there.

And while some kids, as was said, might be on Hulu and think, "maybe I'll check out that Naruto or insert-title that a friend was talking about", a good deal will not because they think "anime = kids' entertainment" (or any other false stereotype you can think of). And there's only so much anime companies can do to kill that myth. Let's face it, they can't start showing graphic/fanservice content with mind-screwy images and so on in a public ad, because if someone TOO young sees that, the parents will be in an uproar. However, a friend would be quite easy to kill that myth for someone, since one would assume he or she would respect the friend's opinion, and would realize that if they say anime is not kid entertainment, they're probably right.

I'm not saying we need to be approaching random strangers or even small acquaintances, and start telling them how wonderful anime is. But with close friends or those you live with, why not? Unless you have something against them being fans as well, there's no harm done in trying to get them interested, without being pushy of course.

dalbkino wrote:

Though I do question how they would go about giving away merchandise with streaming....

They wouldn't be giving it away, but if Borders can send you digital coupons, so can Crunchyroll. The goal is to get people to buy more merchandise. It's not inconceivable that I would buy a t-shirt (probably not a figure, as I'd have to hide it in the closet Smile

), or a calendar, poster, etc, that was SFW in my home office. Besides my enjoyment, it would generate conversation if nothing else.

But frankly, I never see the marketing of such items for the mostly niche anime I like unless I go look for it. If it was displayed prior to or after a streamed episode, with a big "Limited Edition, 20% OFF" splash, it would at least get my attention.

There are SO many possibilities for monetizing digital distribution, and for improving DVD sales for that matter. It just takes imaginative, heavy duty marketing geeks with the balls and the freedom to try new things over and over until they discover what works. Something will work, but it takes ideas, time, and detailed record-keeping to accurately test all the sometimes wacky ideas--one of which will turn out to be golden. People have successfully marketed rocks, for chrissake. I've seen how it's done right in large corporations. What you get as successful marketing may be 5% of what was tried in limited pilots.

Cait wrote:

Anyway, I think the issue of "merchandising" as a different revenue direction for anime companies is interesting, but I don't know that it will render fansubs obsolete on its own. Taking from the new US theatre industry business model (which is having the opposite retention problem: the audience is diminishing as new technologies replace it and the current audience is growing older), staying afloat financially is often a matter of broadening the ways in which income is received (in theatre there are educational programs, touring shows, and even building and sub-letting retail space adjascent to the physical buildings). Any number of "other" things, besides producing anime, could help keep the industry in financial green, but the other side of that is risk. Anime companies seem notoriously unskilled as business-people and mistakes and failures are always possible.

It's long been an argument that purchasing merchandise can off-set the costs or lost revenue due to piracy. The problem with that is only that huge franchises, like Gundam or the shounen-de-jour, could support that off-shoot. Not every show on the air (and thus on the wire) can support that model nor do I think the market as a whole can support that glut.

Coming up with some new model is one of the hardest strategies I'd thought about in my free time. Over in the tech sector, many people are predicting that there's going to be shifts to (or at least gains in) Free/Open Sourced Software, which licensing structure permits an open, disclosed base with proprietary additions and staking against an over-all service and support model. Red Hat's been doing a business like this for years, charging a nominal fee for business use of their server operating system and raking in dollars with engineers, tech support, consulting and more, while there is a legitimate and free version of Red Hat Linux, Fedora*, available on the net.

But, adopting such a model to the anime industry would mean that the core product would essentially have to be available for free and that costs would need to be re-couped through other means - merchandising, limited run DVDs for collectors and larger runs of more consumable and cheaper DVD box set releases, slews of other merchandise.

Cait wrote:

Then there is the concern that licensed anime will go back to pre-1998--all kids shows-- because that's the only place where the merchandising is going to help float them.

Pre-1998 --all kids shows & expensive fan market--.

letneinside wrote:

Fansubs are advantage for the worlds remotest region where dvds & shipments costs 2-3 months family's daily needs.
For practicality sakes.

if that's the case in your area, then I think you have bigger things to worry about than what cartoons are on TV in Japan.

Casey wrote:

And it is increasingly difficult for to do that in a number of mediums. Music being one of those. If talent is not rewarded financially, a lot of talented people will not emerge in a medium. Getting back to American comics, that's been a big problem for Marvel and DC.

Not that I don't you necessarily intended it this way, but for anyone to warrant financial compensation, you have to produce products that people want, need and desire. Yes, I believe people deserve compensation for their labor and that financial rewards are the greatest driver of innovation. I'm probably not one to talk about the woes of Marvel and DC as I've not been a part of that scene for more than a decade but from listening to friends who are active comic readers, I can soundly say that the stuff that is printed and the price point they sell at, it's no wonder they don't make any money publishing books. Simply pursuing an artistic endeavor, in itself, does not warrant riches in compensation. If you plan to make a professional career out of artistry, then you're still subject to market forces that dominate every other sector of the economy.

As far as whether fansubbing still has a purpose or not, the article considering both halves, seems torn by it and the discussion that interrupted it. This week's portion almost seems cut down and all over the place without actually touching the subject. Last week's portion did a much better job than this one, I feel, of addressing the topic. Does it still serve a purpose? There's an idealistic part of me that believes it does - a pursuit for works that have been neglected after time or will be neglected for licensing. Is it having an effect on the industry as a whole - yeah, but that effect is coupled with bad deals, bad decisions, and a borderline denial of reality coming from industry professionals in the US and Japan.

*Fedora is technically Red Hat Linux, although the release schedule is faster between versions and may contain software that is not featured in RHL.

I don't see why they can't emulate the business model of the digital music industry. Relying on DVD sales to make a profit is already a failure. The Itunes store is hugely successful. It didn't start out that way, no one expected it to be instantly profitable but someone demonstrated some excellent vision developing that industry.

Anime companies should be relying on digital distribution, downloads as well as streaming, to generate revenue and DVD sales should be limited run ventures. The market will give instant feedback on what shows are popular and where to spend the effort to produce other merchandise (figures, t-shirts and such.)

Paying for streaming alone, even to get a high def stream, is very difficult to justify because the consumer doesn't feel like he really gets to own anything.

Fansubs won't die, just like music piracy hasn't, but it will certainly become less prevalent and be reduced to having only marginal impact on the industry.

But again, that plays up the importance of physical media for the consumer. We LIKE having tangible objects, it's simply human nature. We feel a truer sense of ownership from a shiny flat disc than a file from cyberspace. Not only that, a physical DVD won't be wiped out if your hard drive crashes.

I did find it a bit odd how the second part of the topic seemed to drift off to merchandising. It's not that it's a bad thing -- topic drift happens all the time, even around our forums -- but the real heart of the matter is the impact of fansubs on the industry. Still, I'll take what was discussed at face value.

I'm also interested in how the CoA legal discussion on fansubs will go in a few weeks. I imagine a lawyer will have a very different perspective on the subject than a subber.

I just want to say great job to all the discussion panelists! ^^

Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

I'm also interested in how the CoA legal discussion on fansubs will go in a few weeks. I imagine a lawyer will have a very different perspective on the subject than a subber.

I don't think the legal ramifications will matter at all unless the companies start seriously going out and protecting their wares. You can talk all day about the Bourne Convention, etc., but the fact is there have been no actual negative consequences for pirates (outside of Japan).

It sort of reminds me of this whole A-Rod thing...

So the guy takes steroids for three years and has the best three batting years of his career (in terms of homerun and RBI production). He then signs a $275 million contract the following season. Arguably he would have never gotten that much money without those three previous years' numbers.

What do we learn from this situation? Taking steroids pays off (quite literally).

Until there is a real fear of actual legal action, all the legal theory in the world is completely irrelevant.

I am speaking from the mindset of someone who understands fully that they are breaking the law, e.g., your average fansubber.

-Tofu

Tofusensei wrote:

I don't think the legal ramifications will matter at all unless the companies start seriously going out and protecting their wares. You can talk all day about the Bourne Convention, etc., but the fact is there have been no actual negative consequences for pirates (outside of Japan).

The Bourne Convention? If we send him, James Bond, Sam Fisher, and Maxwell Smart after fansubbers...OK, the last one maybe not, but... Anime smile

In all seriousness, though, I was talking about this with Cait last night, and the truth is there is no financially sound way for the R1 industry to pursue legal matters. With all the money they pour into licenses, dubbing, and promotion, do they have anything left for legal issues? They're lucky they're even afloat. I read once that ADV (well, while it was still the giant, this held true, but might not anymore) had lawyers whose primary concerns were the licensing and copyrights of shows, and they had only 3-4 lawyers and said legal eagles did not have the time or resources to go after fansubbers.

They need a watchdog group like the RIAA. And more people from the industry speaking out on the matter. If Napster's downfall was partially because Metallica threw the whiniest, most self-serving bitch fit at the time, surely to God someone can have a similar effect on the anime industry.

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Chicks On Anime - Fansubs (Pt 2)