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There are a lot of reasons to dislike Bleach. But stuff like Bleach IS an entry-level series for a lot of people that get into the fandom. And yes, some people never do go beyond entry-level, which is where there is no accounting for taste then Wink

My critical gripes with Mr. Kubo:
Despite how much sales he has, he's very lazy in the presentation of the manga. Stuff like "The Heart" being the go-to jibe at his frequent lack of backgrounds (which isn't even his job, that would be an assistant, which he can totally afford to hire...)

Ichigo also being a poorly written character. I don't know if I would say Mary Sue (Gary Stu?), as that term is tossed around too much. But everything comes to him too easily, and of course Kubo just keeps slapping more and more different sets of abilities on him, which makes no logical sense. He's eventually a Shinigami-Hollow-Visored-Fullbring-Arsepull etc. user, which is totally ridiculous poor writing.

Then of course the nail in the coffin being his jumping the shark completely with the completion of the Aizen arc. -- Something that actually DID resonate with readers in Japan as well, as he got HAMMERED in sales drops after that. Not only is Bleach not Big3 anymore, it's not even "Big5" ... last I saw it was ranked 7th in sales of WSJ titles. (Which is probably the biggest reason Kubo is finally wrapping up the story -- he overstayed his welcome and its dying)

TitanXL wrote:

http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/factsopinions.html

I think you need this.

Says the guy (girl?) who refuses to accept that facts and opinions can and do overlap. There are an infinite amount of objective truths, and Bleach being badly written is one of them.

If you like Bleach, fine, that's your choice. But don't pretend it is something it's not.

I really hope you're just a bored troll and not that ignorant.

Or maybe you're still in middle school, I'm not sure.

It is my sincere opinion that your username is TitanXL and that your Avatar is currently Hana Katsuragi.

Oh hey, look, I was right. Opinions and facts can and do overlap.

I destroyed your entire argument in a mere eighteen words. Maybe you should get additional lessons from Binky.

dtm42 wrote:

It is my sincere opinion that your username is TitanXL and that your Avatar is currently Hana Katsuragi.

Oh hey, look, I was right. Opinions and facts can and do overlap.

I destroyed your entire argument in a mere eighteen words. Maybe you should get additional lessons from Binky.

Your misusing the word opinion. TitanXL being his name is a fact, it begin a good or bad name would be an opinion. You have learned nothing from the Binky, you have no right to criticize others.

Also Opinions & Facts overlapping is kind of... fallicial.

You can use a fact and opinion in the same sentence though, such as..

"I find the 366 episode Shonen anime Bleach to be better/worse then Insert anime here."

See Bleach having 366 episodes is a fact, then the quality of good &/or bad is the opinion.

And remember KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! Laughing

Also arguably the only opinion that can overlap with/as fact is "HUMANS SUCK!" Laughing

Soundmonkey44 wrote:

"I find the 366 episode Shonen anime Bleach to be better/worse then Insert anime here."

See Bleach having 366 episodes is a fact, then the quality of good &/or bad is the opinion.

Or:

The Pokemon dub uses Westernized names for entities = fact.
The Pokemon dub is bad/good = opinion.

so how can I prove that Mona Lisa is an art masterpiece?

when it come to fact, subjective, opinion and etc; i always believe this quote:

Quote:

Literature is not completely subjective. If literature were totally subjective, then nobody would be able to tell the difference between amateur fanfiction and Shakespeare or other notable works. People would not take classes to learn how to write better and publishers would not have objective criteria that they require their authors to meet. We have done our best to present only objective arguments in this article and we believe that dismissing such arguments with “well that’s just your opinion” instead of rational discourse would be both dishonest and fallacious.

Behave, people.

And while I can't personally comment on the quality (or lack thereof) of the Bleach manga, as I've never read any of it, I will point out that it's quite possible to find something entertaining and still acknowledge that it's not very good. I have often found that to be true about the anime version, anyway.

I love Bleach.

I have no idea why I love it. Oh, there are parts of the manga and anime that are really good, but there are parts that are just... not. And even though I think that many people are too harsh on the series and have silly complaints that don't really hold up, I still would never consider Bleach a great series overall, despite my love of it.

I'm not sure I'd consider the series as a whole "objectively bad", but I definitely think parts of it are, and I think the series is so inconsistent that it's hard to really qualify.

It seems like the "subjective vs objective" argument is brought up a lot a lot on ANN. One side of this argument claims that all opinions related to the quality of an anime series are subjective, that there is no such thing as a good or bad anime series, that it is all in the eye of the beholder.

I don't agree with this.

Oh, I think that everyone has their own biases, and that oftentimes these biases are so heavily ingrained and so subtle that it's pretty much impossible to stop them from influencing one's opinion. I think that a lot of the praise and complaints given to various anime series are simply the result of subjective preferences.

Despite that, I think there are still some objective standards that can apply to anime, some objective levels of quality that go beyond personal preference. This is a bit easier to argue if someone is talking about things related to animation/art, things related to visuals. I mean, one can simply bring up the episode of Naruto where the title character was drawn without a head in some scenes (no, I am not making up this example, this actually happened) or the disturbing horror of "melty face" Sasuke from the same series as examples of objective bad visuals. And pretty much everyone would agree, "yah, that's just plain bad, it's not subjective, it's simply bad."

With things like storytelling and characters, it becomes a bit more complicated, but one can still bring up the worst of the worst as examples of things being objectively bad, and even the most stringent of the "it's just your opinion" posters would probably still agree.

So I can understand where dtm42 is coming from. The issue I have with his posts (and similar posts by other forum members) is not his view that there are objective measures of quality when it comes to storytelling. No, it's his apparent arrogance that he, and only he, is able to measure objective quality, and that anyone who disagrees with him is obviously stupid.

Now, that may seem odd. I mean, if something is an objective truth, shouldn't anyone be able to tell that it is so? Well, one would hope so, but sadly it is not the case. As I said earlier, everyone has their biases, and some of them are so subtle and ingrained that it is hard or even impossible to prevent them from affecting their opinion. In addition, humans are imperfect, fallible creatures, and are prone to making mistakes.

For example, look at science. Scientists deal with clear objective truths, things related to the very laws that govern reality... and yet still, if you look at whatever the latest theories are, you'll see intelligent, reasoned people come to completely different conclusions and beliefs regarding the basic laws that govern how the universe works.

Humans are flawed, with limited knowledge. Two humans can view an anime series, and come to completely different conclusions regarding the quality of it. That does not mean that one (or both) of them is an idiot incapable of judging a series, nor does it mean that there is no such thing as objective quality, that everything is just opinion. It merely means that, for whatever reason, one (or both) of the people were unable to properly evaluate the series.

Now, I don't expect everyone posting their view of a series to post things like "Bleach is bad (note, though I think Bleach is poorly written and this is an objective truth, it is always possible that I simply am incapable of properly judging the series for reasons I cannot comprehend, and so maybe Bleach is actually objectively good and I am just mistaken, but I don't think so.)" That would be silly.

But I do think some posters could stand to be a bit less hostile, and express a bit less of an "how could any intelligent person possibly disagree with me" attitude.

Key wrote:

Behave, people.

And while I can't personally comment on the quality (or lack thereof) of the Bleach manga, as I've never read any of it, I will point out that it's quite possible to find something entertaining and still acknowledge that it's not very good. I have often found that to be true about the anime version, anyway.

Too true.
I enjoy Bleach but I would hesitate to call it good. It is probaly my least favorite of the big three shonen titles( the other two being One Piece and Naruto of course).
However, I do take issue with dtm42 claiming it is objectively bad. Any opinion on the quality of an artistic creation is by it's very nature subjective. Neither of us may find Bleach to be particularly good ,but we can't tell someone else that they're wrong to think otherwise.

Edit-I must have just missed Mad Scientists post. He has a very well
thought out argument that I'm probaly not eloquent enough to debate in full. I agree that one can say that technical aspects of a show can be objectively "bad",but I think a work as a whole can be more than the sum of it's parts.

shamisen the great wrote:

Neither of us may find Bleach to be particularly good ,but we can't tell someone else that they're wrong to think otherwise.

Of course I can, because they're wrong to think that way. As in, factually incorrect.

However, I cannot and do not tell them that they cannot enjoy Bleach or other bad shows. As Key said, it is possible to like something even if it is not all that good. The reverse is also true. If something is good - even really good, like PMMM - I don't go around insisting that people like it.

Whether you like something or not is subjective. Whether something is good or not is objective.

Mad_Scientist wrote:

So I can understand where dtm42 is coming from. The issue I have with his posts (and similar posts by other forum members) is not his view that there are objective measures of quality when it comes to storytelling. No, it's his apparent arrogance that he, and only he, is able to measure objective quality, and that anyone who disagrees with him is obviously stupid.

I don't always get it right. In fact, I hardly ever get it right, at least the first time; I'm constantly changing my initial ratings. But just because I may not immediately know the correct score/grade/rating for a particular doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. There is an objective quality for each and every Anime, and I am constantly in pursuit of finding out what that is. That said, the quality of writing by itself is much more readily apparent than how the Anime as a whole fares. Thus, it is easy(-ier) to say "this is a badly-written Anime", because you can list pros and cons, good bits of writing and bad bits of writing, and weigh them up.

You think of me as arrogant. I don't think it is arrogant to state facts. I could list dozens of instances of bad writing in the story and character development, not to mention the direction. Bleach being badly written is a fact, the Manga-ka has admitted this. He even flat-out stated he makes the story up as he goes along, and that whenever he gets writer's block he throws in a new bunch of characters whether the story and narrative can handle them or not.

So anyway, I'm not the only one who can objective truths, I'm just one of the relatively few who are actively looking. I have rated many Anime that I hate much higher than I would have wanted to, simply because they deserved a better grade than what I would have given them. And I have rated many Anime I really like far lower than I wanted to, because they just aren't as good as my feelings towards them suggest.

Quote:

Literature is not completely subjective. If literature were totally subjective, then nobody would be able to tell the difference between amateur fanfiction and Shakespeare or other notable works. People would not take classes to learn how to write better and publishers would not have objective criteria that they require their authors to meet. We have done our best to present only objective arguments in this article and we believe that dismissing such arguments with “well that’s just your opinion” instead of rational discourse would be both dishonest and fallacious.

Thank you iloveoov for sharing this, it makes a great point.

I'm just going to ignore all the ridiculous "my subjective opinion is absolute because I say so" and simply say I'm glad Bleach is up on sales. Recently, Volume 55 opened with half a million sales on its first week, which it hadn't done since 48-ish, so I'm happy. Kubo said recently that he has a lot of plans for this arc, including plenty of character stories that I've been hoping for a while, so I'm really looking forward to it.

Also, many mangakas write their story on-the-run, I don't think that's indicative of lousy writing. Fairy Tail's Mashima does the same, and even Death Note's Ohba admitted to taking big last-minute decisions spoiler[L's death, for instance, or an accidental swapping in Near's and Mello's looks] Writing a weekly series that could be as short as 10 chapters or as long as KochiKame is completely different to writing a single story in one go like a novel or a movie script

I started writing a long post on what I feel is the nature of art and it's subjectivity, but I realized we're getting way off topic. I did find the discussion interesting,though; and I wish I was better at defending my points.

I think Mad-Scientist Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Also, DTM, you really need to learn that your views are NOT facts.

Humans, such arrogant and ignorant creatures. Sad, very sad.

And another thing it really doesn't matter how popular an opinion for or against something is, that doesn't make it factually good or bad, 99% of the human race could love or hate something and that doesn't mean diddly squat.

I mean yeah Bleach is far from perfect, and theres obviously manga/anime you could argue are better then it, but there also a lot anime/manga that you could argue are worse. Does Bleach have a bakers dozen worth of flaws, well yeah, is it a BAD series, well, NO, average grade maybe, mediocre at times maybe, bad, nah. Heck ever single long running comic & manga serial on the planet arguably declines in quality as they go on. series overstay/outlive their prime and eventually just fade in with the rest of the pot of generic long running shonen, that doesn't make any of them bad or horrid though. They just are, they are there for people who want to read them until they finally come to an end.

Also.... why do people, especially on these forums feel the need to, what in the end sums up to, arguing over cartoons & comics, now I hate to say that in a negative light, I do, I love animation & comics both domestic & foreign, but really in the end, its all entertainment media, and different media entertains different type of people. The sad thing is theres so many pretentious jackanapes on the internet that constantly have to justify that there tastes are better then others or that there smarter then others they feel the need to bash people for liking (insert media here) or just the set media in general, which is well...kind of sad. I mean we all do it, I do it, you do it, and why? I mean it doesn't feel good to act that way, I know I feel bad when I do. So yeah really whats the [explitive] point. I mean really in the end all any discussion on the net these days is it seems is a bunch of noobs or pretentious fan brats trying to justify their interests or show their superiority. Kind of sad we can't learn to accept the whole different strokes for different folks philosophy. I know I try my best to do so, I fail most of the time, but I try dag nab it.

With series like this isn't not just about it being good or bad. Most of the current readers have been keeping up with the series for years. Once you've gotten that far, reading the newest volume/chapter is part of your routine. I guess you could say it's like a bad but enjoyable habit. We've all got those and as far as bad but enjoyable habits go, reading Bleach is about as innocent as it gets.

Bleach is good at what is does: showing the readers some really awesome fights. And the fights in the recent volumes (40-43) are particularly good despite the disappointing story that led up to them. The people who are still reading Bleach -and that's quite a lot because it's addictive- have no reason to drop it now.

Besides, we should be glad people are still buying the manga instead of just reading illegal scans. Success series like Bleach help make non-mainstream titles possible, they create room for publishers to take risks. And I'm willing to bet a decent chunk of Bleach fans is interested in more than just Bleach.

Quote:

Also, many mangakas write their story on-the-run, I don't think that's indicative of lousy writing. Fairy Tail's Mashima does the same, and even Death Note's Ohba admitted to taking big last-minute decisions spoiler[L's death, for instance, or an accidental swapping in Near's and Mello's looks] Writing a weekly series that could be as short as 10 chapters or as long as KochiKame is completely different to writing a single story in one go like a novel or a movie script

Exactly. That's just the way it is. Some authors work well with this way of writing (Akira Toriyama, for instance, until he got tired with Dragonball), others have a tendency to fall into certain traps. One easy way to get the readers attention is to introduce new characters. Use that trick too often and it'll become difficult to juggle all the characters, and the story will suffer. That's what happened to Bleach and Tite Kubo is to blame for that, but that's his problem, not that of the format.

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