Forum - View topicShelf Life - Clanning Up
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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My favorite definition of moe is, just some blogger somewhere: "Moe describes a certain type of stylized illustration of a young, cute, innocent, most often female human." It isn't a genre. And the above definition is broader, because originally it was supposed to be a feeling generated of protectiveness, specifically excluding sexuality, toward a character. Of course, this came from Japanese otaku, so we're talking about a guy feeling this for a girl, a young girl we can assume. In Lucky Star, Miyuki displays "moe" characteristics that Konata points out, like her clumsiness, that make her endearing. To me, Tsukasa is the classic definition of moe. Ironic, since Kagami won the SAIMOE this year and the final was Kagami vs. Tsukasa. That contest is supposed to elect the most "moe" character of the year. The way we're using it here is like the above definition, as in cute, young, big-eyed girls. We're probably being too liberal with it, but it cleanly differentiates a show from Code Geass or xxxHolic in terms of character design, for instance, with its CLAMP designs. You could argue that Eureka is moe, but I don't put her in that category design-wise even though she falls into the overall big-eyes anime design style. Of course, by the time you get to Texhnolyze, you're completely out of the territory. Rei from Evangelion, however, falls into that category from looks and from drawing empathy, IMHO. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Deja vu, or a strange double post incident involving pparker?
Hmm. Much of this conversation has turned to shows that I've never seen, so it has become somewhat difficult for me to follow all of it. However, I just read part of the Fruits Basket description from Bamboo's Shelf Life column that reviewed the whole series, and I have to say, it seems pretty out there. So do parts of Clannad, based on what I read, and so do a lot of shows I've seen and love. Heck, one of my favorite shows of all time is Eureka Seven, and the basic premise of the show involves a bunch of giant robots flying through the sky... on surf boards. Yah, it sounds pretty absurd, yet I managed to take the show seriously enough to enjoy the emotions and drama that it contained. Honestly, so many animes, so many shows in general, have crazy, seemingly unbelievable premises, yet they somehow make them at least somewhat believable. And there are plenty of shows that have crazy, seemingly unbelievable premises, and absolutely fail to make them even somewhat believable. And people can never fully agree on whether a particular show falls into the former or latter category. Clannad is a good example of that. Whether that's the result of double standards, or just differences in tastes and personalities, I can't say. I do think there are a lot of double and triple and quadruple standards in life, so it wouldn't at all surprise me if that's at least partially to blame, but I wouldn't want to say with authority that I know that's why Bamboo feels the way she does. I'm still struggling to understand why Bamboo didn't love Princess Tutu more, afterall, so I obviously don't really understand the way she thinks.
I have to say, this whole thread, and threads like it, has suddenly reminded me of Robin's ANN Nina cartoon about what it would be like if all the world leaders were anime fans. (Only half serious, fortunately this thread isn't at that level.) |
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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I backed away from the keyboard awhile ago. Not me. I chose to avoid arguing Clannad, a half decent "soap opera" (Thanks, Bamboo, there was a word I was looking for in describing this genre besides dramedy) and Fruits Basket, which is the only shoujo series I've ever watched beyond 2 episodes, and then bought it and rank it high on my list. I didn't know it was shoujo, just that the first volume rented sent me straight to the store for the rest of it because it was good. Never thought of it as reverse harem, either. I don't think of Clannad as harem. Girl's Bravo... that's harem! Even Love Hina, which I said I liked. There's no accounting for taste, I tell you. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yikes. I haven't seen Clannad myself but if it's so bad that it makes you hallucinate little fox girls then you know you're in trouble. |
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Ingraman
Posts: 1077 |
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At least Clannad's equitable by having an equally broken male lead; it's not just the girls...
I guess that 'soap opera' could be a description that works for Clannad, but whenever I hear the term, I think of daily shows that run for years and years... ^_^; In case anyone cares, I didn't like what I saw of Air (the character designs were just too strange, and the story was uninteresting) and I haven't seen any version of Kanon. I've really been enjoying Clannad and its sequel, and I'm looking forward to ADV releasing the rest. |
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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Ahh, best LOL of the day. Now I can go to sleep happy.
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Ceral
Posts: 28 |
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I understand the feeling you get when you see an overdone plot device, I have felt many "Oh brother" moments over the few years that I have been watching anime. But why are any shows different? It's serves to keep things interesting. I would be quickly bored watching reruns of any type of show. You have your opinions on this show, and I'm not going to debate what you believe in. But if you seriously think you can tell fans of any show that it's bad or wrong to watch because of a few far fetched plot devices(present in just about ALL shows) or because the girls are young and too pretty; This is anime and all shows will cater to their audiences by making the characters as cute or handsome as they can to sell their product. I'm not much of a fan of shoujo shows, but I'd never tell someone that there's something inherently wrong with watching a shoujo show, I would just figure they share a similar feeling as me when I'm watching any Kyoto Animation show. So, when you make fun of a show, and don't show it respect, especially one which is taken seriously by some people, on a website that I would think caters to them no less, I would think you would know better than to not expect backlash. As an editor I would think you would treat all your readers and they're tastes with respect, otherwise it would be plain foolish to expect to receive so much respect in return.
I think, this is a well written paragraph that shows respect to the viewers of the show but also gets your opinion out there. It gets across that you don't find a whole to like about some of the characters. Frankly, if you could use this tone a lot more, I think you'd get a whole lot less "backlash". I'm not exactly a forum vet here, so I don't know what kind of backlash you normally get, but you'd appease a lot of viewers who disagree with you, I think, and also let your opinion get known by those with similar tastes as you. And you can certainly, "pour it on" for the shows you like. I don't know why you've felt the need to tear down other shows that people like. With the all the things you and Zac have said, I'm not sure you really respect the shows(Almost certainly not) or even the viewers who are watching them. About the reviews, don't stop them, although it does seem a little silly to me that you would review them... (Right now, with some of the articles it seems like you've got reviewers reviewing things that they aren't particularly interested in. Like getting a fanatic who was into only sports and action to review a romance or a slapstick and comedy lover to review a drama.) However, I know that the owners and those that have a vested interest in this site probably have the reviews anyway to produce traffic, and that the viewers enjoy these reviews because it creates a place for them to discuss the show that they've been watching, even if it's not the best review. Keep writing them. I'd just like to request that you write your reviews with more respect and fairness. |
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Richard J.
 Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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Bamboo, I've been trying to grasp exactly what you're getting at by questioning the "believability" of certain plot devices but I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out exactly what you're getting at. All I'm really getting from what you are saying is that you personally don't like those elements and think they are silly.
I mean, certainly, they aren't realistic as we don't have much evidence that people in comas astral project or that foxes can turn into humans. (Plenty of fantasy stories with both concepts out there but no hard facts.) Still, within the established universe of Kanon (can't talk about Clannad since I haven't seen it) such things are treated as magical or miraculous but clearly they are possible in that universe since they happened and therefore believable within that particular series. There weren't any clear rules of reality in that story to be broken to begin with though. You aren't willing to "believe" in the plot devices. I get that clearly. However, you're unwillingness to suspend disbelief isn't based on the series violating it's own established reality rules but rather on the fact that you personally don't like those breaks from real-world reality outside of a strict fantasty/supernatural setting. Considering that you've given high marks to many a series with some truly insane plot devices, I have trouble understanding why these particular series bother you enough to effect ranking. Unless you are simply bothered that people take them seriously rather than as comedies since you find the plot devices silly. In the case of the "broken" girls, the series would be a rather different genre if they weren't like that so I fail to see the point in bringing it up. The whole point of Kanon for example was to see how Yuichi tries to help the girls' solve their problems. I mean, it's not like Kanon tries to claim to be a realistic depiction of anything. I take it Clannad is much the same. There aren't a lot of series where I would consider the characters to be psychologically normal but that doesn't detract from the series, especially when the genre of that series relies upon such character types. (Who'd want to watch Black Lagoon if Revy had a therapist or Ouran if any of the hosts were normal people?) I mean, from what you've said you object to the drama aspect of some shows because you personally can't take the series that seriously with certain plot elements. Others can suspend their disbelief further than you can. Why bring "believability" into it when that's completely subjective? Plus it's clear you aren't willing to put much effort into that suspension to begin with for some shows and genres. You have a distinct bias in favor of series with dark drama and/or violent action. And I know it's WAY late to respond to this but I just noticed this whole long evil thread tonight so. . .
Casey Brienza shows this with her reviews of the Sasami: MGC season sets. The first had some unnecessary insinuations about male fans that in my opinion ruined the professionalism of the review, which is sad since it was otherwise a well-written and rather positive one. The second lacked any such insinuations and did a better job of addressing the show's content itself. Now, overall, I've disliked the majority of her reviews that I've read but I thought she showed a distinct improvement between those two. I'll just leave my views of Carl Kimlinger's review of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha unsaid as I doubt my opinion would be particularly productive in that case. (I've just learned not to read reviews he's written unless I want to boil my blood.)
I rather wish I could be a reviewer on ANN but I doubt I could meet all the requirements for the job. My only writing experience is writing reports and papers for classes.  (If it means anything, my grades on them were almost always in the A range.)
Please don't ban me Zac. 
As I'm apt to do, I apologize for the lengthy post. Hope it is fully coherent since I'm writing it very late for me. 4:00 AM. 
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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Not everyone is familiar with the genre.
But aren't reviews subjective?
This is just absurd. In the very same column, I just gushed all over Ouran, which has neither dark drama nor violent action. AND Wallflower, which is also a comedy. So... how does my distinct bias play in? |
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_Earthwyrm_
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Frankly, I think that it's fine for a comment in a forum, but in the format of a review it would be inappropriate. I don't want to read a review where every second line is an apology for any lambasting (implied or otherwise), or a qualifier stating that, yes, some people like this kind of thing. It'd be too much like Zac's review of Clannad AS. When I read a Bamboo review, I want (strangely enough) to know Bamboo's opinion - I don't want her to relate to me someone else's opinion. If she thinks that something is silly but entertaining, then that's what I want to hear. Honestly, whenever someone on the forums complains about a review (which is fairly regularly), they always, always bring up the notion that the review ought to address how well it's been received within the community. That a review ought to take into account the fact that lots of people enjoyed this show for a particular set of reasons, and that this ought to stay the reviewer's hand if they're writing something negative - even if those very reasons that made it appealing to someone else are what made it unappealing to the reviewer. That's weird. |
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Ceral
Posts: 28 |
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Funny, I have the opposite opinion, I thought her original review would be something "okay" in a forum. I am of the thought that the forum is a place where you can say just about whatever you want to say and a publication is the thing you want to filter since it's just being asked to be clicked on by just about everyone who pops into this website. I don't like to go to these forums, so I've never clicked on them for a year of my visiting this website(aside from one other time. I just want the news. But the editorials on the side and the advertisements taking up a quarter of my screen are hard to avoid at least taking a glimpse at. I guess ANN is aiming at a bunch of loose cannons for editors? Shoot off whatever they want to say? That's cool I guess, more entertaining than a bunch of Larry Kings mumbling to eachother. Too much drama for me though. If I happen to click on shelf life again maybe when After Story comes out, it would be nice to have an editor who I could go into the forum and see them arguing against all the other editors about how all their stereotypes about a certain genre is wrong. That way I would feel that my point of view was represented at least, and I could go on my merry way without trying to make a big hubbabaloo. |
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Mysticmidnightmaiden
Posts: 123 Location: California (Bay Area) |
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Wait, WHAT? Reviews shouldn't be censored, just because they're on the front page of a news site! They're not "surveys of how a selection of the fandom accepts a series". They're ONE person's opinion. That's all. If you don't agree, that's OK. Write one with some positive support and post it in the forums. (Please, stop dancing around in circles, man, you're killing me here...) |
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Ceral
Posts: 28 |
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YOU WANT A SPARKLING REVIEW!???? Be careful of what you ask for, because you are about to get the most over-hyped, lavishing review, that will extol the virtues of moe, SO MUCH!!! That the editors of ANN will have banned me after puking on their keyboards in vengeance. The only reason I write this review, is because of my love for KyoAni, the same reason, which against my better judgement has had me up until 4am this entire week, arguing about moe, big eyed girls, and ridiculous plot devices, giving me 3 hours of sleep each night. But it's all worth it my friend, because you, are willing to read my, sparkling review. So without further a-do, I present my review and one word that describes this series best, DANGO: The show starts off with a gorgeous backdrop of a city, right away you can tell, that this is a beautifully animated series. But wait, something is wrong, my tv screen doesn't seem to be working right; the show is in black and white?! Hold on. you're about to be introduced to the king of KyoAni introductions. Listen to Okazaki Tomoya, hear the narrator talk in a morose tone about how much he hates the city he lives in, and his lamentation of going to school everyday and nothing exciting ever happening. Then watch as he begins to nonchalantly walk up a hill lined with cherry blossoms, without any concern that he is late. Until where, he meets a strange girl stopped underneath the shade. Standing there on the hill, with eyes straining shut and hands clenched, she blurts out, "Anpan!, Kono Gakou Suki Desu ka?" (Red bean paste bread! Do you like this school?) A bit of a perplexing phrase. Startled, our lead stares blankly ahead, as this strange girl gives a brief dialogue seemingly to herself, about how she loves this school, but regrets that this life will have to change, and perhaps all the things she loves now will be gone as growing up is inevitable. Hearing this, our main character hesitates but then sternly tells her as if trying to reassure himself, "Just find new things to love", and then the camera swings wildly, but with purpose, from the side of the girls face, to in front of her, to back out, and her head turns, as a strong breeze blows by and a storm of cherry blossoms comes pouring out of the trees, the colors go from white and black to pink, brown, gold, green, red, all vibrant and full of life, a gentle but sweet and poignant song plays in the background to introduce our two main characters to us, and to eachother as their eyes first meet, finally the camera settles on boy and girl, side by side. I always get speechless watching this introduction, for it surely foreshadows the depth and beauty of this show, and it brings a promise, that this show will be nothing but memorable, artistic, and just a tad silly. Now that I've got your attention, let me tell you a bit about these characters. Nagisa, our sweet girl who stood late, outside school, with eyes shut yelling "ANPAN!", is an un-intruding, shy-girl. Who will turn on you, should you make fun of her love of Dango(Big round, cute plushies that come in numbers and serve as symbolism for family.) As moe shows go, she is made from the template of the usual shy girl, calm and sweet, she doesn't feature any particular quirks that are too distracting like clumsiness but she does have the weird habit of blurting out the names of the food she likes to eat whenever she is discouraged. Thankfully they don't over use this saying too much, and it only comes up in two or three comedic situations after the introductory episode. My hope would be that getting to know her character by Tomoya talking to her in the courtyard during both of their lonely lunchbreaks, one will come to love her personality, and relate to her struggles of repeating her senior year due to her fragile health, and her desire to act in the drama club, which has been disbanded, and so she must take on the responsibility of being the leader of and try to find some members to re-establish the club. The first few episodes of the show is usually a mix of the characters walking around school like a bunch of bums with nothing to do. Typically, the viewer will meet one of the five main characters. And sometimes Sunohara, Tomoya's loud, crazy and delinquent friend, who is usually just there for laughs, will also tag along. Much of the time Sunohara is involved, is when they meet up with Tomoyo, a tall girl, with long flowing white hair and blue eyes, who packs a powerful kick, strong enough to take on any amount of crazy delinquents. One may say she breaks the mold of the obedient, lovable type, whether she does, is the focus of the next installment, for these episodes, she is just mysterious and only shows up to kick some delinquent ass(Have you learned your lesson yet that girls can be pretty strong Sunohara?) Two of the other girls we meet are Kotomi and Kyou, purple haired cuties, the first doesn't get much screentime,. Kotomi is a genius and spends ALL her time in the library reading books, due to her smarts she is exempt from classes. Her character is as under-the-radar as can be, even when she is on the screen, the presence of the majority of the cast is needed to keep things fun and to continue the story. Kyou also doesn't get much screentime in this collection, but she can keep a scene exciting all by herself though. Loud and decisive, she protects her sister Ryou with an ardent fervor from people who might tease her timid twin sister who shares a class with Tomoya. Kyou throws dictionarys like major leaguers throw fastballs and drives a moped to school. I wouldn't mind getting to know her a character a little better, emotionally she seems a bit shy and hard to get close to. Lastly, there is Fuko, she reminds me of a small growling dog. Always throwing insults at the main guys, and afraid to get physically close to them, she's a weirdo but will make sure to let you know, that you're an even bigger weirdo. She's full of energy, and it's hard to get tired of her personality, as she is always coming up with paradoxical insults to hurl at the guys. This is not without good justification though, as Tomoya loves to pull pranks on her, the random gags keep the show fresh as we edge toward one of our main storylines. Speaking of storylines, it's the heart-felt moments where the characters show what the true meaning of Clannad is. These are the moments that really makes this show special. Up until now, all I've been talking about was character personalities and about the gags you will see in the show. The drama is done very well, in my opinion better than 99% of the seinen or older male branded shows out there. With the cover of cute girls, one must think how can this show ever be about something meaningful and seem serious showing that? Don't judge a book by it's cover. The last half of the collection spends most of it's time with Fuko, and her attempt to show her love for her sister. There is something wrong with Fuko though(And no, I'm not talking about her personality.) Whether the viewer wants or is unable to believe the next sequence of events will likely decide whether this is a favorite or not. I had no issue with it, as I thought it was foreshadowed very early on, before even the introduction of her character, and clues are given throughout each show that something strange is happening. How does this strange thing tie in with the melodrama ? Well I would say that the viewer gets to spend so much time getting to know Fuko, that chances are he/she will be charmed by her cuteness, her quirks and the general feeling of fun she gives off. Despite her energy, her screentime rather put me at ease. She's very non-threatening, in spite of the snarls she gives the main characters. I would think that any supernatural elements that the show gives off, would be offset by the vigor she displays in her eccentrically fun personality. The melodrama was believable for me, because of all the long days spent getting to know this girl, and from day one of meeting her, seeing that she always had one thing on her mind; Carving out wedding invitations for her sister in the shape of starfish. Not to mention the scenes leading up to the climax of her story. Both Nagisa and Tomoya help her out a lot and care for her well being, if you do not believe that friendship can bring people so close, then I would advise you to watch only if you wanted to try out something different. Whenever these three and others spend time together, I feel like I'm at a small private birthday party with people whom I love from when I was kid. It's the emotional bonding the viewer does with the character, so that when the climax comes, the emotion hits home . All the fun, all of the bonding, the fondness you had built for that character. It all finally comes rushing out as tears lightly meandering down your face. The tears that I shed, were not of ones that were out of sadness, anger or depression, which leads me to say that the show is very unique, beautiful. Besides all of the gags and the melodrama, Clannad features a wonderful soundtrack. The opening is catchy enough and has a bit of an irish flair(No bagpipes or anything like that, though). And it has a very infantile ending. That puzzled me at first, but has made more and more sense as I watched. The song in question plays like a lullaby one would sing to put a baby to sleep. It seems like a strange choice at first, but it just might become one of your favorites... Well I'm nearing the end of my sparkling review. Clannad is not going to be every person's cup of tea. It's not perfect, it has a few lulls that even the most devoted would get a sense of monotony from. But it's a show that if understood, will have you laughing, smiling, crying, and sometimes all three at the same time. |
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Mysticmidnightmaiden
Posts: 123 Location: California (Bay Area) |
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While I appreciate the time and effort you put into your review, you missed these few points: 1) The majority of your post was frankly, an advertisement. Not a review. Your opinion was too blended into your summaries. Point out the crisp animation, talk about the voice acting, describe the plot execution (if you know the source material). Don't sell me the series, that's what Promo Clips are for... 2)Plot and character bios should be the last thing on your list to note off. If that's one thing to put a reader to sleep, it's that. Unlike a blog, it's awkward to interrupt a review post with pictures, so you have to get to your point quicker. Thus, you can summarize. Here, let me try: Tomoya: MC, deliquent Nagisa: Shy, sick with some illness, wants to re-establish the drama club Sunohara: Tomoya's friend, loud, comic relief Tomoyo: Strong fighter (rapid kicks), mysterious Kotomi: Avid reader, genius, ditches class to read in library Kyou: Twin of Ryou, feisty Fuko: Energetic, childish (Now I feel like I'm stepping over my boundaries as a reader. I don't know the format for an ANN review, but I based my advice on what I look for in a review. Hope it's helpful.) |
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