Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2009-03-20]
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I've heard nothing about this show. Apparently it is (or at least parts of it are) the work of Mamoru Oshii though. Does it bear any similarity to his later works as regards mood and style etc, or would one be expecting too much of it by making such comparisions? |
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Ryo Hazuki
Posts: 363 Location: Finland |
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Actually the first half or so on is directed by Mamoru Oshii but it's based on Rumiko Takahashi's manga. I would say its more similar to Maison Ikkoku and Ranma ½ than any other Oshii's work. Oshii's Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer movie is probably the closest UY gets to his later movies. |
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kokuryu
 Posts: 915 |
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Quite frankly, I think the one major reason that old shows sit on store shelves is that there is zero advertising to let people know they have been released. There is tons of fanfare when the companies pick up the titles, but zero when they actually release it - 2, 3 or 4 years later.
Secondly, there are plenty of fans like me who only want the series the original way it was released. So while Robotech was put out, I instead have Macross, Southern Cross, Mospaeda Genesis Climber, Megazone 23 and Orguss. |
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kokuryu
Posts: 915 |
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Hi later works like Ghost in the Shell, Patlabor, Blood and Blood+ more closely resemble each other than they do to the earlier works of Urusei Yatsura. But anyways, he also worked on the second Gatchaman, the first two Urusei Yatsura movies (which the author Rumiko Takahashi did not like - but became instant hits), and several live action films. He has done a ton of live action films, and only recently returned to making anime with Sky Crawlers - he did the writing for Blood and Blood+ and did a few manga to anime script conversions. But his genre of storytelling is definitely in the vein of Ghost in the Shell and Patlabor mixed with Blood/Blood+ - worlds where there is strife against authoritarian governments that try to push worlds of "perfection" on people, but are instead corrupt and full of hypocrisy themselves - and the heroes and anti heroes that are born from such. |
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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you completely misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say, think how I think or your blind, what I was getting at is sometimes people like a particular genre so much that they disregard or choose not to see the apparent faults in it. For example the many teen and tween girls who think twilight is the best book ever written, are clearly blinded by their love of romance novels to see the apparent inconsistencies. That is what I meant. Furthermore, I haven't spoiled anything in my previous post, the title of the anime is Toradora, however no work was put into making the development of this relationship good because all of it unfortunately is crammed into the last quarter of the second half of the series. That is a problem and if I came off arrogant, I'm sorry, I tend to look at things very critically and analytically.
Technically you're right, I should have clarified. The last 5-3 minutes of episode 18 was the the real turning point whereas episode 19 was the turning point in play. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Perhaps I was to quick to judge, but I've found that anime likes and dislikes can be very subjective, and your post came off as a blanket statement that anyone who likes the ending of Toradora is simply too much of a fan of the genre/etc to be able to recognize flaws in the series. A statement like that is a bit presumptuous, in my mind. |
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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hmm, perhaps but when I stop to think of an exception to that rule I can't muster one. In another forum I frequent there is a person there who loves this series and hails it the best series he/she has ever seen. Another forum goer there, much more of a critic than I, challenged his post by saying something along the lines "Despite the fact you love this series that much, do you really not see anything about it that could have been done better?" The major fan responded along the lines that even if there were things that could have been done better he/she was choosing not to look at them and just to enjoy the positive things about them. I'm not saying that's a bad way to think, I myself am guilty of doing just that sometimes, but I guess you could also break it down to no series is perfect, but then it also comes down to the fact that some series are more imperfect than other series and glaring so, and then it all breaks down to a circular argument that goes no where, so I'll stop myself here and maybe agree to disagree with you 
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zhir
 Posts: 353 Location: Nampa, ID, USA |
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I believe the main issue is your use of the word "consensus". It's obviously no such thing, and on this forum at least, you don't even seem to be in the majority.
Also, you're employing the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, which is always VERY annoying. Edit: Also, "It's the consensus of this fan" is a crime against the English language, even if the word is used more correctly immediately afterwards. Edit again: The poster you quoted was creating a false dichotomy by basically claiming that a show either has a great ending, or one that can be improved. Nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved. You then acknowledge that, which negates the entire value of the point the poster you were quoting tried to make (then why did you quote his post?). Finally, you follow up by saying that "some series are more imperfect than others" which means that all of your posts boil down to this: "I feel that the shows ending isn't very good. I'm right. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. The opinions of people who are wrong don't matter. Therefore there is a consensus among people who's opinions matter." |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18188 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Let's set aside how improper the use of "consensus" was in your first comment, as others have already explained that. The next part is faintly insulting, but I'll also let that go since I'm short on time. As for the rest, I entirely disagree with the view of you, enurstol , and the quoted guy about how things fall apart with the episodes you mentioned, and don't think I'm being blinded by anything when I say that you've got it all wrong. There has been nothing rushed or haphazard about the way the last quarter of the series has played out, as everything that has happened has been built towards by events which unfolded earlier in the series. From a critical and analytical as well as personal standpoint, I have found the writing consistently excellent and to be following an entirely logical progression, one which far exceeds the normal quality standards of the genre at this point in the series. I realize that not everyone is happy about the direction that the match-making seems to be going, but that's no reason to refute the quality of what's going on here. The most recent episode was no different on this point, and in fact packed a powerhouse punch which leaves a lot yet to be resolved in the final episode even though the relationship issues seem to have been settled. And it's still funny while doing so. As for consensus, it is currently the #45-ranked series (out of 3100) on this site, a ranking likely to go up as some of us who are holding off on casting Masterpiece votes until the end of the series start registering their official opinions. Of course, you're certainly free to utterly disagree with me, but I'm also free to not let you get away with trashing something that (in the opinion of me and many others) is definitely not deserving of being trashed. |
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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First of all you're being overly picky and overly analytical. When addressing and defending a personal stand point you can't do so objectively. One cannot say Toradora from an objective standpoint is anything but a romantic comedy. The reason I had to counter the original claim that Toradora didn't live up to its potential is because one of the previous posters made that belief out to be non-existent. The the derivation from the use and connotation to which consensus was used stems from before my posts, it's a forum cool your jets save it for english class will ya? It's just a little grating. Now where was I, right toradora, I never claimed toradora wasn't very good as you seem to be claiming I did. Toradora broke the bounds of what many anime in its same genre had done, and showed extremely great writing up until around 18 episodes when the writing suddenly became rather sloppy to create the ending that was "supposed" to happen. It went back on everything original it was doing all so it could cop out for the cliche ending. Whether or not you agree with it copping out at the end even for someone who really thought it was fantastic might agree it was stronger at the beginning than the end. Do I feel I'm right? Of course, this is what I think if I didn't think it was right I'd think something else. However does that make everyone else who disagrees with me wrong? No, and that's the flaw in your spiel in trying to make me look like some arrogant prick with a pole up her ass. Like I mentioned people can like toradora and think it's the best thing ever ignore the imperfections and glorify the things it does right it really just comes down to how much the imperfections bothered you in the end. From the example I used for that fan those imperfections didn't bother him/her much, however, for me those imperfections were too glaring for me to ignore. However, if you've ever been to a forum or a thread based solely on toradora you'd see there's a great divide between those who love this series and those who couldn't get over the post episode 18 scripting and that alone speaks miles to me.
Let the consensus thing rest  yeesh it's like starting a counter argument with "learn how to spell" just as a lead in to a terse sounding reply....
Again, when did I say Toradora is a horrible series? Go ahead quote me. I said Toradora has done a lot of unexpected things oustside of its genre that others of its type have never attempted. Again, how is that trashing it? Oh wait perhaps it's because I haven't praised it as the best series ever. Please, I hate to sound like a douche, but I can't ignore the things that bothered me about this series. This is going into spoilerish territory So lot's of things are going to blacked out from here on out. spoiler[You said everything has built to this point in the series as your first point. Your second that nothing has been rushed, and your third that there is still lots to be explored with the last episode. I couldn't disagree with you more. Taiga and Ryuuji became friends around episode 2. Okay fine. So they both pledge to help each other with their love lives. Sure okay, I initially assume that this will lead to their eventually falling in love with each other. In the 12 or 11 episodes leading up to the Ami beach house episode to my surprise we get some character development of Minorin, Kitamura, and Ami which is fleshed out in the Ami beach house episode. We hit the half way point and only the heroine starts think at the end of one episode maybe it wouldn't be so bad to end up with Ryuuji. From there you'd think they'd start developing the main character, but instead they go into the whole Kitamura and the class president mini-arc which was drawn out way to sink SS KitamuraxTaiga which also brought the TaigaxRyuuji development to a stand still. SS KitamuraxTaiga sinks and now we're up to episode 18 with the SS MinorinxRyuuji ship not only still in play but has seen extensive development since the Ami beach house episode. We now know Minorin has developed feelings for Ryuuji, and leaves me wondering why this late in the game? Should not this ship sunk a long time ago to make room for a smooth transition to RyuujixTaiga? So in the last 4 episodes we get a indirect confession from Taiga, an episode ago a confession from Ryuuji and a minute latter he proposes to her. And you're telling me that's not rushed? That there was no way to space that out a little better in 25 episodes? This is completely omitting the fact the two decide to run off together leaving almost nothing left to explore in the last episode except maybe finding out where Ryuuji's dead beat mother ran off to. Honestly I think they could have clipped a lot of the side arcs shorter to add more time for Ryuuji and Taiga to develope romantically rather than 18 episodes of Ryuuji taking care of Taiga like she was his daughter.] Anyway that aside it doesn't matter to me much if the whole world thought that Toradora was flawless, I didn't. I also didn't thinking the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya was that great either but I'm in a minority there too, doesn't change the fact that I feel that show was over rated and appeals to a smaller audience than it may seem. Anyway this post has gone on long enough. |
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zhir
Posts: 353 Location: Nampa, ID, USA |
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You may not have been the first person to say it, but you certainly defended it.
You say that, and then say you never accused anyone of being "blinded" or having an inferior POV. You are basically calling people who like the show's ending blind fanboys, and then saying that you never said that, while accusing us of being unfair. |
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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I didn't defend the connotation of the word consensus I was defending the fact that they're are people who feel that toradora starts out great but dips off at the end keeping it from being ultimately great and being only good. The connotation of the word "consensus" wasn't even a talking point until you made it one. My bad, it was incorrect, now can we move on from this it's getting rather silly.
no, I've addressed this before, I said that some people are able to look pass the imperfections present in toradora because they don't bother them as much. It doesn't make their opinions inferior and I've never said that they were you can quote me again if you like I've never said anything of the like in this thread or otherwise. Prior when mad scientist misunderstood what I was saying I used the twilight example to clarify he read my reply and then we made amends. Why you keep continuing to dig this back up and drag this out I don't know, but the argument and misunderstanding was dead before you decided to revive it. |
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Vicserr
 Posts: 480 Location: Carolina, Puerto Rico USA |
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[quote="Iniksbane"]
Why people still doubt that Mecha as a genre (and it's subgenres like Super Robots, Real Robots, Brave shows, Eldoran shows) when we had had shows that represent the genre for 40 years and 2 decades (the 70's and 80's) where it was the flagship anime genre. |
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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[quote="Vicserr"]
In a way, I can understand that line of thinking; however, I think that, like with magical girls, Japanese animation has taken something that squarely fits into another genre (science/speculative fiction for mecha, I guess fantasy for magical girls) and developed an extensive body of work against which it can be measured. Take for example, this episode of our podcast. All mecha are science fiction works but not all science fiction works are mecha. However the reaction from myself and my co-hosts show that even though mecha may be considered a sub-genre of science fiction, reaction from the panel reviews was much, much more favorable to Gundam F-91 than it was to Crusher Joe showing that mecha can have an appeal outside of a more strict science-fiction setting.
The coloration in the anime was one of the most defining factors, I think, in Yawara!'s appeal, too. Urasawa's designs noticeably fit into his character design style (very down to earth, I like it) and it's got a very typical late-80s, early-90s Japanese fashion sense but the coloration really takes Yawara! out of the seinen manga scene and gives it a broader demographic by actually making it look more shoujo. Coupled with the series' strong weaving of subplots and endearing characters, there's no wonder it was very popular when it aired and fairly nostalgic for a lot of people now. Really, more people should check this series out and ignore when it was published.
I think I'm understanding your point now based on this summation and I believe that we are in agreement.
Good, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who likes the idea. I'll have to pitch it to the co-hosts and find some guests... |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18188 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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And this right here is exactly what I've been having a problem with in your posts. You're making a false assumption: that we're loving the series in spite of it dropping off in the later stages. I am emphatically stating that it doesn't drop off, not that I like it despite shortcomings. I'm not agreeing that the shortcomings even exist in the first place, and I know a lot of others in these forums who don't agree with that, either.
You haven't read the thread about it in our forums, then.
That's fine, except when you seem to be insisting that everyone who doesn't see it that way is being "blinded" by what they like about the series. (And that you did say.) And to be clear, I was specifically referring to your comments about the last quarter of the series, not the series as a whole. If that isn't trashing something, then what is?
Can you say "unresolved issues?" The story would have felt like it was missing something if it hadn't taken time to deal with that, as spoiler[Kitamura's interest in the Class President] was recognized and commented upon in our Toradora! forum thread well before that point. Besides, up until that point some people had been complaining that Kitamura hadn't seen much attention or development compared to the other major cast members.
Why? That would have sapped one of the biggest sources of potential conflict out of the series, which would have reverted it back to the same dull storytelling seen in a myriad of other anime romantic comedies. spoiler[The conflicted feelings Minorin has been secretly harboring (specifically her struggle between what she wants for herself and what she wants for Taiga)] are one of the key underlying plot points in the last 2/3 of the series.
Nope. Check out pages 48-50 or so of our Anime Forum thread about the series for a fuller explanation on that one.
Uh, no, can't agree at all here. A whirlwind of events happened in episode 24, and not everything has yet settled to the ground. The final episode must do that to give the story a proper conclusion.
spoiler[The romantic development was happening the whole series, just not always on the surface. Side characters started noting at least as early as the second episode that something seemed to be going on between the two of them, whether they acknowledged it or not. This series took a far more subtle approach than the norm to allowing the romance to develop, which may be what's throwing people off here.]
Oh, there are definitely people around here who agree with you on that. I'm not one of them, mind you, but you'll definitely get more sympathy on that viewpoint. Anyway, I suggest taking further commentary on this over to the appropriate thread in the Anime Forum, as we're past sidetracking this thread.
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