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Hey, Answerman! [2009-03-20]


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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
kakoishii wrote:
Whether or not you agree with it copping out at the end even for someone who really thought it was fantastic might agree it was stronger at the beginning than the end.


And this right here is exactly what I've been having a problem with in your posts. You're making a false assumption: that we're loving the series in spite of it dropping off in the later stages. I am emphatically stating that it doesn't drop off, not that I like it despite shortcomings. I'm not agreeing that the shortcomings even exist in the first place, and I know a lot of others in these forums who don't agree with that, either.

Quote:
However, if you've ever been to a forum or a thread based solely on toradora you'd see there's a great divide between those who love this series and those who couldn't get over the post episode 18 scripting and that alone speaks miles to me.


You haven't read the thread about it in our forums, then.

Quote:
Again, when did I say Toradora is a horrible series? Go ahead quote me. I said Toradora has done a lot of unexpected things oustside of its genre that others of its type have never attempted. Again, how is that trashing it? Oh wait perhaps it's because I haven't praised it as the best series ever. Please, I hate to sound like a douche, but I can't ignore the things that bothered me about this series.


That's fine, except when you seem to be insisting that everyone who doesn't see it that way is being "blinded" by what they like about the series. (And that you did say.) And to be clear, I was specifically referring to your comments about the last quarter of the series, not the series as a whole. If that isn't trashing something, then what is?

Quote:
spoiler[We hit the half way point and only the heroine starts think at the end of one episode maybe it wouldn't be so bad to end up with Ryuuji. From there you'd think they'd start developing the main character, but instead they go into the whole Kitamura and the class president mini-arc which was drawn out way to sink SS KitamuraxTaiga which also brought the TaigaxRyuuji development to a stand still.]


Can you say "unresolved issues?" The story would have felt like it was missing something if it hadn't taken time to deal with that, as spoiler[Kitamura's interest in the Class President] was recognized and commented upon in our Toradora! forum thread well before that point. Besides, up until that point some people had been complaining that Kitamura hadn't seen much attention or development compared to the other major cast members.

Quote:
spoiler[SS KitamuraxTaiga sinks and now we're up to episode 18 with the SS MinorinxRyuuji ship not only still in play but has seen extensive development since the Ami beach house episode. We now know Minorin has developed feelings for Ryuuji, and leaves me wondering why this late in the game? Should not this ship sunk a long time ago to make room for a smooth transition to RyuujixTaiga?]


Why? That would have sapped one of the biggest sources of potential conflict out of the series, which would have reverted it back to the same dull storytelling seen in a myriad of other anime romantic comedies. spoiler[The conflicted feelings Minorin has been secretly harboring (specifically her struggle between what she wants for herself and what she wants for Taiga)] are one of the key underlying plot points in the last 2/3 of the series.

Quote:
spoiler[So in the last 4 episodes we get a indirect confession from Taiga, an episode ago a confession from Ryuuji and a minute latter he proposes to her. And you're telling me that's not rushed?]


Nope. Check out pages 48-50 or so of our Anime Forum thread about the series for a fuller explanation on that one.

Quote:
spoiler[This is completely omitting the fact the two decide to run off together leaving almost nothing left to explore in the last episode except maybe finding out where Ryuuji's dead beat mother ran off to.]


Uh, no, can't agree at all here. A whirlwind of events happened in episode 24, and not everything has yet settled to the ground. The final episode must do that to give the story a proper conclusion.

Quote:
spoiler[Honestly I think they could have clipped a lot of the side arcs shorter to add more time for Ryuuji and Taiga to develop romantically rather than 18 episodes of Ryuuji taking care of Taiga like she was his daughter.]


spoiler[The romantic development was happening the whole series, just not always on the surface. Side characters started noting at least as early as the second episode that something seemed to be going on between the two of them, whether they acknowledged it or not. This series took a far more subtle approach than the norm to allowing the romance to develop, which may be what's throwing people off here.]

Quote:
I also didn't thinking the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya was that great either but I'm in a minority there too, doesn't change the fact that I feel that show was over rated and appeals to a smaller audience than it may seem.


Oh, there are definitely people around here who agree with you on that. I'm not one of them, mind you, but you'll definitely get more sympathy on that viewpoint.

Anyway, I suggest taking further commentary on this over to the appropriate thread in the Anime Forum, as we're past sidetracking this thread. Rolling Eyes

I don't wish to side track this forum any longer either. I guess the major differences in the conception of how this series is viewed as a whole is based primarily on the fact that we visit two separate forums to discuss toradora. The ANN is obviously devoid of any critics (or from how you make it seem very few that they've scuttle to the minority). Whilst the one I visit is split in half or at the very least is working in a strong 1/3 to 2/3 minority, however ever since the 24th episode in the forum I visit it has stepped over to at least half with the many dissatisfied with the pacing and events of episode 24. I could go on and on but neither of us are going to agree with each other, it's one of the reason why I had hoped no one would open that can worms and reply back to my post with something along the lines of "you're wrong!" using arguments I've seen before. I've seen them I've counter them and people either choose to agree or disagree with my counter. For me the major drawback of Taiga and Ryuuji's relationship is spoiler[their development doesn't appear to be of the romantic sort. Ryuuji had taken care of her like a father or a brother making their relationship seem very platonic, filial, or paternal. To me the shift to romantic around the end of episode 18, isn't done very smoothly. You can disagree and say that it was romantic all along, but I just don't see it.] Also the one thing I can't stand in any romance anime is spoiler[other characters getting their hearts thrown in the shredder in the name of the main couple. I understand what you were saying with it being different to keep those couples in play longer, however to me it wasn't justified. I had gotten to know and love this characters to the point where I wished them well, the last thing I wanted to see was their relationships used as plot devices to further the end of the main couple. It just seems cruel to me. Anyway again you can disagree with me if you like, it's just honestly something I think could've been done without while still amounting to the same end.] Anyway that's all I'll say more and hope this thread will either die or go more back on topic.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18138
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:09 pm Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:
The ANN is obviously devoid of any critics (or from how you make it seem very few that they've scuttle to the minority).


!?!?!?!?

Okay, sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about here, and coming in here tossing around comments like this which denigrate this site's forumites (because of course the forums you regularly populate are oh so superior and have the exactly correct outlook on things) isn't going to win you any friends.

In the interest of keeping things civil, that's all the more I'd better let myself say about this. Just check out our Anime Forum's thread about the series and see what you think.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
kakoishii wrote:
The ANN is obviously devoid of any critics (or from how you make it seem very few that they've scuttle to the minority).


!?!?!?!?

Okay, sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about here, and coming in here tossing around comments like this which denigrate this site's forumites (because of course the forums you regularly populate are oh so superior and have the exactly correct outlook on things) isn't going to win you any friends.

In the interest of keeping things civil, that's all the more I'd better let myself say about this. Just check out our Anime Forum's thread about the series and see what you think.

you're completely misunderstanding me....
when I said devoid of critics I meant obviously they're aren't very many people that're are at odds with the series. I gathered that from the way to reacted to my objection with the later half of the series. Also when I mentioned that at the forum I frequent many people were dissatisfied with how episode 24 went you directed me to the forums on this board to show that I might be mistaken. I'm not sure how you got that I was saying the forum I frequent is superior, you're jumping to conclusions and putting words into my mouth now. This is getting exasperating, I'm not even sure how you misconstrued what I said Confused If I was so inclined to horde the forum I frequent to discuss toradora over your head I would have left links to it like you have more than once in your post. As you can see I have not, and that's because on the whole, the forum I visit is irrelevant to our disagreement in so far as I've only been using it to discuss how many people I've come across who've had similar qualms as me. I'm starting to question whether I should take this conversation seriously anymore. Are you just looking to start a fight and find a reason to disagree with me or are you trying to understand where I'm coming from? Because I assure you I've only been relaying my thoughts and show you where I'm coming from and I assumed you were doing the same, but now it just seems as though you're tying to find reasons to disagree with me. It seems you digging at subtext in my posts that doesn't actually exist.

EDIT: I now reread your quote of my post and am now noticing what you thought I was saying. Did you think I was saying ANN the site is devoid of critics? If that's so that's a typo on my part it should have read ANN forums for above reasons stated. On a site called Anime News Network where many of the staff write columns on anime series of course there are plenty of critics. Brian himself is a critic of sorts. Sorry if my typo made you misunderstand, that isn't what I was saying. Anyway I guess the take home message I was trying to convey is each forum is different and each forum has a different diversity of opinions regarding any anime series or otherwise. The ANN forum apparently is mostly positive regarding toradora, the forum I frequent is also positive but apparently on the lower end of positive in relation to the ANN forum. There's probably plenty of other forums that neither of us visit where the opinion is most negative or otherwise. Anyway this has been blown out of proportion. My olive branch has been extended since last post all you need to do is reach out and accept it and we can let this whole thing go.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18138
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:
EDIT: I now reread your quote of my post and am now noticing what you thought I was saying. Did you think I was saying ANN the site is devoid of critics? If that's so that's a typo on my part it should have read ANN forums for above reasons stated. On a site called Anime News Network where many of the staff write columns on anime series of course there are plenty of critics. Brian himself is a critic of sorts. Sorry if my typo made you misunderstand, that isn't what I was saying. Anyway I guess the take home message I was trying to convey is each forum is different and each forum has a different diversity of opinions regarding any anime series or otherwise. The ANN forum apparently is mostly positive regarding toradora, the forum I frequent is also positive but apparently on the lower end of positive in relation to the ANN forum. There's probably plenty of other forums that neither of us visit where the opinion is most negative or otherwise.


If that's what you were trying to get at then I have no issue here and am willing to drop the matter, too. You should be a bit more careful with your choice of words in the future, though, as that seems to be the root of the problem both here and with the "consensus" matter earlier. (The anime gods know that I've taken heat in past reviews for writing a comment in a way that was easily misconstrued. Rolling Eyes )
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UtenaAnthy



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 694
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:12 pm Reply with quote
SalarymanJoe wrote:
UtenaAnthy wrote:

Good looking older shows: Yawara - I really like Naoki Urasawa's character designs and the animation goes very well with the show, bringing out Yawara's personality and just generally being well put together. I've only seen one episode and that was a while back, so this isn't a definite endorsement, but I remember the series being visually bright and very genki (and I do intend to get that boxset).


The coloration in the anime was one of the most defining factors, I think, in Yawara!'s appeal, too. Urasawa's designs noticeably fit into his character design style (very down to earth, I like it) and it's got a very typical late-80s, early-90s Japanese fashion sense but the coloration really takes Yawara! out of the seinen manga scene and gives it a broader demographic by actually making it look more shoujo. Coupled with the series' strong weaving of subplots and endearing characters, there's no wonder it was very popular when it aired and fairly nostalgic for a lot of people now.

Really, more people should check this series out and ignore when it was published.


I agree, not in the sense of "girls and bright colours go together", but that it makes it look more youth friendly, and that just generally makes the show seem more appealing and exciting as opposed to just solidly well made for those unsure as to whether they'd like it. I don't think that's an absolute component of our species' thought processes, but I do think that we tend to associate bright colours with cheerfulness, and also perhaps modernity as, particularly for children, school uniforms have tended to use subdued hues, so bright colours do appeal to kids perhaps partly because they mean "this isn't to do with school and the traditions and following adults that often go with that." Sorry if this seems overanalytical, I just thought about it.

Was Yawara originally seinen then? I honestly thought it was shoujo, or at least shonen, based on the subject matter and content (female main character with a bit of tournament structure).
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:07 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

As for consensus, it is currently the #45-ranked series (out of 3100) on this site, a ranking likely to go up as some of us who are holding off on casting Masterpiece votes until the end of the series start registering their official opinions.


Well, rankings tend to spike in the beginning because the people who tend to vote early are those who are obviously already interested and still watching the series, while those who already dropped out and thus no longer watching tend not to vote because they may feel unjustified to vote having not seen much of the series. (Heck, if there was voting when NG Eva was airing, I don't doubt it would've been #1 early easily.)

It's not till weeks or months later, after the initial euphoria, letting the series percolate and settle in one's system, and when the rest of the population who aren't as interested as early adopters finally get the time to watch it (obviously it takes some time since it's lower in their priorities) - that's when it settles down to reflect the series' truer place in fandom.

(I wonder where NG Eva finally settled anyways....)
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zhir



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 353
Location: Nampa, ID, USA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:35 pm Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
Key wrote:

As for consensus, it is currently the #45-ranked series (out of 3100) on this site, a ranking likely to go up as some of us who are holding off on casting Masterpiece votes until the end of the series start registering their official opinions.


Well, rankings tend to spike in the beginning because the people who tend to vote early are those who are obviously already interested and still watching the series, while those who already dropped out and thus no longer watching tend not to vote because they may feel unjustified to vote having not seen much of the series. (Heck, if there was voting when NG Eva was airing, I don't doubt it would've been #1 early easily.)

It's not till weeks or months later, after the initial euphoria, letting the series percolate and settle in one's system, and when the rest of the population who aren't as interested as early adopters finally get the time to watch it (obviously it takes some time since it's lower in their priorities) - that's when it settles down to reflect the series' truer place in fandom.

(I wonder where NG Eva finally settled anyways....)


I don't know why you have to say you wonder. After all, you're on the site right now. Here they are though:
Seen in part or in whole by 10941 users, rank: #4
Median rating: Excellent
Arithmetic mean: 8.3631 (Very good+.36), std. dev.: 1.99, rank: #204
Weighted mean: 8.2259 (Very good+.22), rank: #202
Bayesian estimate: 8.22491 (Very good+.22), rank: #123

I do agree that new shows have inflated ratings though. Geass R2 is currently ranked ludicrously highly, and will probably settle a good ways down.
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Iniksbane



Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 62
Location: The great state of Mary
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:09 am Reply with quote
[quote="Vicserr"]
Iniksbane wrote:


Quote:
On a side note, I'm not entirely convinced giant robot shows are a genre per se. Although I'm sure people would disagree with me.


Why people still doubt that Mecha as a genre (and it's subgenres like Super Robots, Real Robots, Brave shows, Eldoran shows) when we had had shows that represent the genre for 40 years and 2 decades (the 70's and 80's) where it was the flagship anime genre.


Well to be fair, it's simple. When you look at a genre there are always common elements. For example, a murder mystery always has an unsolved murder, a fantasy always has a fantastical world, a science fiction novel generally has some sort of scientific development.

Mecha shows have big robots.

So yes, there's a common element there, but on the other hand if I were to look at a show like FMP and then at a show like VOTOMS, what do they have in common?

Big robots.

The question isn't so much is Mecha a genre, but how cohesive of a genre is it? I realize it has a long history and there are a lot of show which are a lot closer to each other than FMP and VOTOMS, but those divisions exist.

The thing is, this is good for Mecha because really you can throw big robots into anything. Got a war epic? Throw some big robots into it. (Gundam, Macross, etc.) Got a coming of age story? Throw some big robots into it. (Gundam, Macross, etc.) Got a hard-boiled noir action story? Throw some big robots into it. (VOTOMS) Got a fantasy/man against his environment? Throw some big robots into it. (Escaflowne) Got a teenage romance? Throw some big robots into it. (Gunparade March) Got a psychological exploration? Throw some big robots into it. (Evangelion, RahXephon, Gasaraki)

And you get Mecha.

Now you're right most Mecha shows tend to fall into the war epic/coming of age categories. But since VOTOMS and especially since Evangelion, Mecha has become a more and more amorphous genre.

Which, I suppose, to answer the main question, is why Mecha is right now the most vibrant genre (outside of shounen romance) and why most of the anime we see tends to fall towards those categories.

That's why I was thinking maybe Mecha isn't a genre per se, but just an element added to other genres.
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zhir



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 353
Location: Nampa, ID, USA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:39 am Reply with quote
You can say the same thing about SF. You have space opera (IE:Starship Operators and LoGH) which is probably what most people think of, but you also have GitS: SAC which is a police procedural; the Patlabor TV series, a sitcom; Cowboy Bebop, a western/jazz/noir show; Crest/Banner of the stars, a romance/space opera; and of course most (but not quite all) mecha shows.
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