Forum - View topicNEWS: N. America's 2007 Anime Market Pegged at US$2.8 Billion
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jdb728
Posts: 77 Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca. |
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Firstly, I agree wholeheartedly on not wanting to buy an anime only to find a horrible ending. I guess what I'm trying to get at is we need to find some way to stop the "fansubs-as-previews" people who never intend to buy the DVDs(I trust you're not one of these people  ), the people that download or burn a series, say they don't like it enough to buy it, yet have watched it more than once. Point is(from what I can see), if we don't invest in US anime companies, they won't have any money to invest in anime. Now many people argue(and I've gotten in personal debates with friends over this) the "so what, we'll just be watching the fansubs that the Japanese make regardless" idea. Problem with that is that a lot anime is partly founded by US companies from the beginning(think about this, less money to the US companies means less money to anime production in Japan), without it, they'd survive I'm sure, but the quantity and quality would likely decrease.
The 'the Japanese can so we should be able to also' concept has a couple of flaws. #1. This would of course assume that OVAs and Theatrically released anime isn't be fansubbed here for the argument to valid(as neither air on Japanese TV, at least not for some time after initial release). #2. On TV there is a set time and day for each episode, if you want to watch a specific episode or series at various times you must either view it online or have the DVD release, or have one bloody huge memory capacity in your Tivo(so the "convenience" is one of the purposes of buying the DVD release, as well as supporting the production company. Sorry for the lengthy(what some may call a borderline rant  ) post, but it's over now.
Thanks for reading.
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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Nope, I'm firmly in the camp of "If you like it, buy it when it's released; if you don't like it, don't keep the fansubs or spread them around." Part of what I love about streaming is it's getting rid of the need for a lot of fansubs. Places like Netflix offering anime, libraries getting anime: all of these are good things, that real fans should embrace. It'll remove the temptation to use fansubs as substitutes for buying the product. Fansubs are, to me, a necessary evil in some instances, but if we can get to the day when we don't need them, that will be great.
True, true... those are also easier to rent, though, as well as sell back if you don't like them, so in that instance fansubs start to feel really unnecessary (save maybe as a way of trying to drum up interest in getting something licensed). I actually have bought a few movies without seeing them because I knew the director, figuring I could easily sell them used if I hated them. A whole series, though, can be tougher both to afford and to sell.
They're called VCR players and blank VHS tapes. At least, that's how I watch American shows when I know I'll miss 'em. Also, streaming doesn't have to be forever; American television shows online only keep the episodes up for a limited period of time, which would be perfectly acceptable in the case of anime as well. I hate the division into "pro-fansub" and "anti-fansub." I think most people hold a middle ground of "pro-fansub until it's released." I believe when ANN held a poll, that received the most votes. Now, do people actually put their money where their mouth is? Not always, and it does hurt the market. Whether fansubs have caused the downturn since 2003 is another matter. There's no way to really tell how much people download since it's all done underground, and certainly no way to tell how many people never buy anything they watch fansubbed. But it is time that people who use fansubs learn to use them responsibly, and support the market rather than just leech. |
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Ghiblix2
 Posts: 42 Location: San Diego |
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Seems to me like the DVD sales remained pretty steady throughout the years from 2001-2007 at around 300m. So I don't see a real argument for people saying that pirated anime is causing the downfall of anime -- although it definitely looks like it has a noticable impact. Still it fluctuates around 20%, the 2001 figures are identical for 2007 dvd sales at 316M.
The reason why people probably don't buy DVDs is that they are insanely expensive and the amount of terrible crap that is out there is probably a threshhold that people don't want to cross. I don't know about anyone else but spending money on anime that turns sour -- as it so often does midseries -- makes me feel really stupid. What fansubs do is it allows people to see things in its entirety then decide to purchase the DVDs to support -- this kind of honor system obviously leds to people probably not buying but they probably wouldn't buy it otherwise anyway, risking a gamble. I think the anime industry's biggest problem is quality content and costs of production, it's ridiculously expensive to produce and the stuff that gets produced rarely is worth buying if you ask me. But it seems to me like content is starting to get a lot better, at least in 2008 and especially this year. |
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TokyoGetter
 Posts: 416 Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards. |
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I totally agree with your post for the most part, but as far as prices go... do you really think so? I just bought about 4 complete sets and 4 individual dvds to finish up a few shows that I like and it ran me a cool 150 bucks after all the discounts were tallied up. That's a song for all the animation I grabbed, and most shoppers can get those kinds of deals rather easily if they look around for them. There are tons of reputable dealers online or near you that are constantly having deals. I'll spend 150 bucks to be entertained for 2 months or so. Why not? As far as turning sour, that is a valid concern, but I think if you do your research or really enjoy the show that shouldn't be an issue that should put you off from supporting it in some way, be it chara merch or DVDs. At the end of the day, I like anime, and am kind of stoked to be in a position to have that boxed set on my shelf. I don't like being tied to my PC any more than I already am at work or when I'm on assignment, so it's nice to put that aside for a bit and sit in front of the TV at my house or at a friend's place and watch a well-crafted show. I figure that I owe the industry that much if i want those creators to continue to be able to turn out the kind of stuff I'm interested in watching. Vote with your wallet. 
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DomFortress
 Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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Ktimene's Lover
 Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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Though piracy contribute a lot (I'd say up to 90%), bad licensing/advertising also contribute. Also, because some shows just don't have the stuff to make it big. That is, the quality of certain shows (Xam'd I put as being one of the finest quality anime I have seen ever. It's Miyazaki-style influence and character development is so good that if it was for best anime drama of 2008, I would pick it. I'm waiting for someone to license it.) aren't on the level as other shows.
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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His right, the first thing to go in a bad economy is things you don't pay for. For example I have stopped breating air |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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Ghiblix2
Posts: 42 Location: San Diego |
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Well you know what TokyoGetter, you might be right about the costs. Upfront, I think it is rather expensive and daunting to invest this kind of money as a pennyless student, but there are movies and shows that I have enjoyed watching over and over again -- Mushishi, GITS: SAC 2nd GIG, Ghibli movies of course, and a host of others that I still owe it to the studios to buy.
Relative to a DVD or blu-ray movie nowadays that run 15-25$ for 1.5 maybe 2 hours of entertainment, anime series is much better bang for your buck. Anime's problem is that the market itself may be far too small to support itself when we're speaking of the economies of scale related to the production and licensing costs PER episode and the yields per episode. While the studios of America are leviathans that can easily afford the costs to produce and license things in America because they can easily turn a profit regardless of the utter garbage they produce, Japanese companies don't have the luxury in our market -- at least not yet, although shows like Naruto and Bleach, for all their faults, they are great for anime as an industry for the audience they manage to capture with their wide appeal. If anime can capture and retain the American attention then it will undoubtedly will grow. That's a big IF though, American conceit and introversion is amazing. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Ok, I can see how people claim that internet piracy lowers dvd sales. Do I agree with it in total? No, but I'll agree there are some who won't buy because of that.
That being said, what is the explanation for the drastic drop in character sales that occurred in the same period? I believe that those sales are not primarily related to things that can be copied, right? These are all physical merchandise of some sort? Can anyone explain all of what is encompassed by that? I assume we are talking about anime associated figures & merchandise, all of which would be physical in nature. If the problem is unlicensed sales of that, well I'd say that would be the industries main problem and the main thing they need to be working to protect. Also, it seems to me that getting the word out about their main product (what makes the most money, this physical merchandise) is probably the largest role of the anime itself. Now of course there is going to be a lot of anime that doesn't get character sales (probably the majority?) and lives on it's own, but it still sounds to me like the problems the industry has been having have much more to do with these character goods issues than almost anything else we have been talking about, and free sharing (as opposed to commercial bootlegging) isn't affecting the bottom line there in a negative way. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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And what's worst it's that anime studios and production companies don't profit from anime character related merchandises sales, when the said merchandises were all based on intellectual ideas own by the anime distributors and not the anime studios and production companies. And about the anime piracy stealing anime programs on Japanese TV network while remove all the ad supports part? Well it turns out that the local Japanese companies don't like sponsoring TV programs for foreign audiences outside of their service areas, and had long since stop sponsoring anime TV programs with their ad venues. That's why anime distributors had to sponsor their own anime TV programs with their own ad venues, when they were already sponsoring the productions on anime series that were suppose to promote their anime character related merchandises. And as soon as the anime series are broadcast on Japanese TV network, the anime piracy will then just steal the anime again and repeat the whole vicious cycle. While why any anime pirate would honestly buy anything anime related when they don't even want to pay for anime is beyond me. They're pirates, and they shouldn't be trusted with their excuses. |
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Dante80
 Posts: 218 Location: Athens Greece |
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Sorry, this is preposterous. By the time a TV show gets licensed, hacked to death via censorship, dubbed and shown on TV...yes, many people would have already seen it through other means (without that making of course said content to lose much value for sponsors...ever heard of anime reruns in American TV?). Internet broadcasting and simulcasting though can (and will) change that in the future.
By watching fansubs. ^^
In contrast to what you may believe, many people that only watch fansubs buy physical media and merchandise...not because they feel guilty, but because they want to, and can...
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TokyoGetter
Posts: 416 Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards. |
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Oh believe me man, I've been in that boat. A lot of the things I've recently bought I watched via fansubs and decided "hey, I've just GOTTA own that," but I drug my heels for years. I bought SAC out of a mixture of giddy excitement and guilt for watching it via fansubs AND adult swim for so long. On the flip side, just wait until the future when you've lost all your time to watch the shows you love and can only buy them and look at them longingly on your shelf before going back to work. I have no idea what kind of shows came out past the summer, but I got some pretty nice looking shelves right now.
There's a lot of good bang for your buck. I get email notices from Borders every week PLEADING for me to come spend money there. I've also been lucky... a local store was closing and selling everything off for 5 bucks a disc and I walked away with over 40 dvds that day.
I'm continually skeptical of the accounting reports that I've seen that were associated with entertainment. Hollywood accounting is an effusive and dishonest backwater, and the sheer amount of under/over/un-reported expenses is just an invite to fudge everything. Nevertheless, I think every single animation studio in the world would KILL to have that kind of juice behind it. Anime is a niche market... a big one, yeah, but a niche market nonetheless. If the growth of the market is dependent upon numbers, which it totally is, then the only way to support anime is to put your money where your moe is and pick up something. Granted, this is an AWFUL economy... one that had me wishing I was still working part-time as a teacher at a high school in the Tokyo suburbs half the time... but deals are around and that's the only way to keep the ship afloat. This is especially helpful in that people can, you know, keep making DVDs for us to watch and such.
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Ok, if I've got what your saying your argument is that fansubs hurt advertising and advertising hurts those who make the programs and those who make the programs (production companies) don't get the money from the distribution companies.
So while distributors may do fine with more sales of character goods, production companies get squat. This is actually a decent argument, however I have to say... why? Why do the production companies work under that without making better deals that actually make them get paid. And the distribution companies, whatever they make is only because of production. If production doesn't exist distribution is screwed as well. So it befits distribution to be at least somewhat fair to production. It may increase temporary profit margins to screw them over, but if they do so for too long they'll screw themselves as well. And there is still something your argument doesn't explain. Why did character goods sales decrease so substantially when it's something not related to fansubs. Are you saying people didn't know "Naruto plushies" existed because they didn't see the ads because they weren't watching on TV? That's kind of hard to believe. Particularly because even the stuff on TV I don't recall having had commercials for these character goods, and the fact if someone wants something they tend to search the internet if they already are looking for the show that way. I'll grant that the production companies are certainly losing out on advertisement revenues from fansub use. Then again, I don't think fansub use is high among those who would have sat there and watched the show at the specified time. It's those who desire to watch it at another time, etc. who are downloading it that way, or those who had no access to the TV program. Considering the amount of anime that appears on local TV, most anime wouldn't get the TV ads anyway. |
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