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PetrifiedJello wrote:

Because if even one shows a schoolgirl in a sailor-style uniform, it can be deemed as moe.

Not, it can't. If people use moe like that, they're using it wrong. "To be moe, a character can be eager or perky, not overly independent, and call forth a desire in the viewer to protect them and nurture them." animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=77

Example: Saya in Blood: the Last Vampire wears a sailor uniform, but she sure as hell ain't moe.

Key wrote:

A lot don't, especially those made prior to the last few years. Of those that do, very few put anywhere near as strong an emphasis on it, or are as blatant about it, as Clannad and Kanon.

Someone started a new thread in the anime category asking for a more precise definition that what's supplied in lexicon.
Your two cents would be worthwhile if you don't feel the lexicon definition is good enough (maybe a re-write?).

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It doesn't? That certainly isn't clear from the first twelve episodes, so refer back to my comment above.

My memory may be at fault on this one, so I apologize if I'm wrong. Trying to put the pieces together has me remembering the conclusion of this near the end. But I'm thinking we're talking about two different story lines with the wedding and Fuko herself.
*bows*

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Irrelevant question

Very relevant. No offense, but your rating doesn't come into play here given you've already dismissed the series to those who would object to "moe" content, despite its drop in use as the series progresses.

It may have been you, but I recall doing the same thing to Divergence Eve based on the first two episodes, and calling it the "worst ever" in my rating. As someone pointed out, it was an unfair rating as the show did improve past these bad episodes.

Your review did the same thing, as I saw it.

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Um, those were both reviewed quite a while ago; see their respective Encyclopedia pages for links to those reviews.

I meant this as when I got to them, not as though I'm expecting them to be written.

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Oh, I don't know, perhaps it had something to do with this comment (especially since it was specifically directed at me):

Well, I guess you probably would take this personally, but not sure why. My target was your review, not you personally. But if you do feel offended personally, accept my apologies.

But the entire review could have been done without one instance of a "moe" reference. There are members in your target audience who are confused with this word, instantly alienating them.

Example:

vashfanatic wrote:

Not, it can't.

Sure it can, when this part of the definition is applied: the concept covers a range of ideal behaviour for youthful female characters in manga or anime.
Which is implicitly applied when one dons a sailor school girl uniform.
From that, we expect "moe" characteristics from these girls, even in real life.
If anything, the "confident, not needing protection" seems more the exception rather than the rule.

I'll be watching the "moe" thread in the other category closely.

It seems I'm reading way too much into the definition.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Sure it can, when this part of the definition is applied: the concept covers a range of ideal behaviour for youthful female characters in manga or anime.
Which is implicitly applied when one dons a sailor school girl uniform.
From that, we expect "moe" characteristics from these girls, even in real life.
f anything, the "confident, not needing protection" seems more the exception rather than the rule.

From this very quote you imply that moe does not equal donning a sailor uniform, but that characters who wear sailor uniforms are expected to be moe, but are not necessarily moe. Thus, by your own argument you support my conclusion that if someone uses moe label merely because a character wears a a sailor uniform, they are using it incorrectly. Hence a series with a girl wearing a sailor uniform is not necessarily moe. And to add to my list of "exceptions," you've got Kuniko in the currently-running Shangri-La, and hell, even the majority of the Sailor Scouts weren't particularly moe. Moe girls may often wear sailor uniforms, but sailor uniforms do not necessitate moe.

Also, you do realize that Key is Theron Martin, the reviewer you're bashing, right?

vashfanatic wrote:

From this very quote you imply that moe does not equal donning a sailor uniform, but that characters who wear sailor uniforms are expected to be moe, but are not necessarily moe.

Expected is the key word here.
I guess I should really ask: Did anyone expect this show not to have it?

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Thus, by your own argument you support my conclusion that if someone uses moe label merely because a character wears a a sailor uniform, they are using it incorrectly. Hence a series with a girl wearing a sailor uniform is not necessarily moe.

Please remember there are probably quite a few people who are using the term incorrectly, and this could be what I've picked up on while reading many replies in this forum.

I'm completely open to "relearning" my bad habits, to understand, and this is going to take time.

Here's a conundrum for you (or anyone else): Is the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya considered a "moe" because one character is forced to dress as such?

Note: I'm open to PM answers to keep this thread on topic. Please, enlighten me with an answer as it'll help me understand. If you can, also address how much a show must dedicate to "moe" for it to receive this classification.

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Also, you do realize that Key is Theron Martin, the reviewer you're bashing, right?

I figured this out when he remarked to the "Why so angry" question with my quote.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

But the entire review could have been done without one instance of a "moe" reference. There are members in your target audience who are confused with this word, instantly alienating them.

When someone says "moe", there are a handful of shows people instantly think of, shows that are synonymous with the word. Air, Kanon and Clannad are three of them.

You can split hairs and argue about whether or not any of those shows are "actually moe", but there's a good reason those shows are so closely tied to the genre; they are prime examples of it.

I don't at all understand the new trend of moe fans arguing that these shows are actually not moe at all or whatever - I'm used to anime fans tying themselves into ludicrous semantic knots of extreme pedantry over any given topic, especially if they're trying to play the "we fans of [whatever genre] are an oppressed minority" card - but to me, arguing this much over the use of a word that is perfectly suitable to describe Clannad is just arguing until you're blue in the face against perfectly reasonable reality.

We have now hit a point where you cannot use the word 'moe' to describe moe shows, or the fans will get upset about it. If you can't step back and see how absolutely ridiculous that is, then there's no helping you.

Zac wrote:

If you can't step back and see how absolutely ridiculous that is, then there's no helping you.

Mushi-man put a pretty good reply in the "Moe" thread about how generalized the term has become, and this really helps because of all the things I've read, this one is the most spot on.

At least the review helped clarify this up for me, so I can retract my "garbage" description.

It's been upgraded to "educational material".
Smile

I'm sorry if I seem so bent out of shape over this, but I took it "moe" to be negative. I still stand by my assertion if "moe" is the only thing keeping one from viewing a series, they're taking a chance at missing a good one.

Wait. I think it was you who reminded me of this regarding Divergence Eve. I still haven't seen it, but I haven't tossed it either.

Its not a bad review

spoiler[The first series is there to introduce and go through the stories of the main characters and most of it is really past story telling, while After Story focuses on the present and is pretty much the real story. If you've ever played the game you would understand the whole moving back thing, even though the show did an amazing job. Some people like it sad, some dont.. its all up to you.. oh and the review was okay, im expecting the A for the After Story..]

Why does nobody leave comments on ADV's blog? http://advnation.blogspot.com/

PetrifiedJello wrote:

HitokiriShadow wrote:

I love Clannad, I personally thought it was awesome from the get-go, but I can see where he is coming from and don't see anything wrong with the review.

And that's quite alright for you to state this. I've no objection with your agreement of the review.

I just didn't get the idiot reference because people wanted to voice their opinions.

You're post wasn't that bad on its own, really, and it was at least better written than most people who attack reviews like this. The problem is, everytime there is a review of a moe-ish series a bunch of people almost inevitably rush in here and complain about some sort of bias against moe and treatment of the subject, such as what you were doing in the post I quoted.

This thread was better than most I've seen, to be honest, as many in the past have been nearly unreadable due to many of the posters barely being able to string two coherent sentences together. Unfortunately, we did get crap like this and in your case, you were going on at how the review was horribly biased garbage because it dared to mention (several times even!) that it was a moe series, that "moe fans" would like it, and people who don't like moe probably wouldn't.

They exact definition of "moe" is debatable (ANN has one definition that is frequently treated as an official definition but many, many people don't buy into that definition when they use the word) and whether some titles can be classified as a "moe show" is likewise debatable. Is Hayate the Combat Butler a "moe" series? What about Strawberry Marshmallow or Kamichu? Depends on how you define it.

Many moe supporters argue that you can't use moe to describe a series or characters. I think that's silly. I'm not sure you should use "moe" as a genre per se, but you can certainly use it to give some idea of what is in a series, at least in some cases. Like the shows I mentioned above, whether a show fits the classification is highly debatable in many cases. But there are some shows that fit the classification by virtually any currently existing definition of moe. The Key game adaptations are among those. These shows are clearly trying to evoke that moe feeling, whatever it is, and people who like that kind of stuff flock to them.

To suggest that this is irrelevant and shouldn't be mentioned in the review is just silly. Arguing that the review is crap because of it is, well, exceedingly silly.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

I'm sorry if I seem so bent out of shape over this, but I took it "moe" to be negative. I still stand by my assertion if "moe" is the only thing keeping one from viewing a series, they're taking a chance at missing a good one.

The problem is that some people do regard "moe" as a negative descriptor, which is, I think, why some fans of moe content have been getting touchy about the use of that label on stuff they like. Really, there shouldn't be anything shameful enough about liking moe content to warrant that, as those protective feelings that true moe content can inspire can have a powerful, legitimate, and honest (and clean!) appeal. When used right, moe content can be a nice enhancement to any normal anime series.

The problem that has arisen, though, is that moe content has evolved beyond its original role - i.e. as a background element to help make certain characters more appealing. It's not only been tweaked and enhanced to an extreme in certain recent series, but become the central focus of some series. That's overkill, unless you're a big fan of that stuff. When used properly - such as, say, in the case of my namesake in Key the Metal Idol, Christmas in Kurau Phantom Memory, Miyu in Elfen Lied, or (arguably) Orihime in Bleach - it can give the characters great and wide-ranging appeal, allowing anyone to appreciate the character without threatening to drive anyone away with excessive heart-grabbing effort or making the character seem totally pathetic.

And that's what ultimately annoys me about the moe content in Clannad, especially Kotomi and Fuka. The series tries way, way too hard to make them twinge your heart strings, thus turning the series into something that's more decidedly manipulative. Sometimes the series pulls it off well enough that it still worked for me anyway (see the second half of episode 9), but other times it disgusted me with its pandering and how pathetic it made the characters seem. ("Moe" should not be synonymous with "pathetic and helpless," but too often it is.) I like the series well enough for its humor (the spoiler["Tomoya switching with Nagisa and having Nagisa pretend to be him"] joke was priceless!) and stories to keep watching it, but I can do without the rest.

The other problem, of course, is that some people do broaden the definition of what "moe" is too much.

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Wait. I think it was you who reminded me of this regarding Divergence Eve. I still haven't seen it, but I haven't tossed it either.

It was, as I remember having that conversation recently with someone in forums. Divergence Eve is a rare case, however, and certainly not the same kind of situation we're talking about here.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

They exact definition of "moe" is debatable (ANN has one definition that is frequently treated as an official definition but many, many people don't buy into that definition when they use the word) and whether some titles can be classified as a "moe show" is likewise debatable. Is Hayate the Combat Butler a "moe" series? What about Strawberry Marshmallow or Kamichu? Depends on how you define it.

I only use the ANN one because 1) I assume the editors are more likely to be going by the description, and 2) we need some standard to agree on if we're going to be talking about moe. My conception of moe pretty much matches the one listed here, so I try to set it as a baseline for what I'm talking about when I use moe.

You'd be amazed how many disputes come down to disagreements/misunderstandings about terms.

vashfanatic wrote:

I only use the ANN one because 1) I assume the editors are more likely to be going by the description, and 2) we need some standard to agree on if we're going to be talking about moe. My conception of moe pretty much matches the one listed here, so I try to set it as a baseline for what I'm talking about when I use moe.

You'd be amazed how many disputes come down to disagreements/misunderstandings about terms.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing you for using it. I was just pointing out that ANN's definition isn't necessarily the one that a great many people go by. And yes, its true that we need some standard to agree upon... and that's a big part of the problem with the term moe: there isn't one.

vashfanatic wrote:

But wait! I thought all the reviews at ANN had a secret conspiratorial vendetta against moe! Hmm... but when a good series like this gets a good review, maybe they're only "biased" against crappy series.

Clannad is definitely not my thing, but my understanding is that KEY makes the best uber-moe out there, so it's sad that the release doesn't get more bells and whistles for the fans.

Don't take it the review wrong. Clannad is one of those exceptions where the moe series might survive in their eyes.The problem is that some moe series got some harem type fanservice and most of them are in the harem catagory which they do have a vendetta against.

Also this one do get bells and whistles,but not a lot cause of the lack of an english which a lot of fans want. ADV is starting to go the same and wrong route like media blaster on releasing good series with sub only version. Unless they make a dub version,they'll be losing diehard loyisits.

jr0904 wrote:

The problem is that some moe series got some harem type fanservice and most of them are in the harem catagory which they do have a vendetta against.

We do not have a 'vendetta' against harem shows.

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