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An unnamed producer told Asahi that videos are not selling "because fans realized that more and more of the releases are the same kinds of titles with bishōjo and mecha elements added just because they are said to sell."

So they finally admit it. Even Shinichiro Watanabe, director of Cowboy Bebop, said the similar thing two years ago.

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http://www.pelleas.net/aniBBS/viewtopic.php?t=525

HellKorn wrote:

Descent123 wrote:

I don't see stuff like Neo-Tokyo, Robot Carnival, and Angel's Egg being made anymore.

Uh, those are films, and anthologies and experimental are still being made (Genius Party, Mind Game, Paprika, The Sky Crawlers... were those being made back then? No? Well, then).

Mind Game, Paprika, and The Sky Crawlers are not experimental or anthologies films. I don't consider them to be in the league of Robot Carnival and the others.

Genius Party is an anthology film (which I have yet to see) but it won't have the same impact on me as Robot Carnival and Neo-Tokyo. The animation quality on Robot Carnival and Neo-Tokyo will destroy just about any anime nowadays. If you watched both of them you'll understand what I'm talking about. They are reasons why I love art done by hand more than computers, and those are reasons why I held Robot Carnival and Neo-Tokyo in high regards.

Changing topics a little , the current anime shows nowadays are difficult to recommend to people who don't normally watch anime. I got friends watching anime by showing them Kawajiri flicks and old-school OVAs. When I show them the current shows none of them like it. They opt for the dark style animes and old-school OVA shows.

To me the problem with newer animes is that they don't appeal to a certain audience. That audience is males who are 18+ who want semi-violence shows and zero cuteness in the art design. The only show that appeal to that certain audience as of late is Afro Samurai. I know countless of friends who don't normally watch anime but purchase the DVD/Blu-Ray of Afro Samurai.

These are also the same audience who buy MD Geist, Cyber City Oedo, Wicked City, Black Lion, Violence Jack and others and it doesn't matter if the show is good/bad or too much violence, these are the type of people who will watch and buy these shows.

I own tons of anime VHS tapes, Laserdiscs, DVDs, and some Blu-Ray and when I have one of my friends who are one of those audience we then to watch an OVA usually.

MD Geist get watched a lot in my dorm room (laserdisc and DVD).

PetrifiedJello wrote:

DomFortress wrote:

stuff said

The only problem, DomFortress, is like everything else within this topic, what you said is speculation.

It's impossible to determine what a production company does, how much they pay, or what licensing rights are distributed.

Hell, if we had that info, these conversations would go away.

Then just help yourself with the 3 parts state of the domestic animation industry report, released by the Fair Trade Commission of the Japanese government in original Japanese PDF format here. I wasn't making things up.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Quote:

anime production companies get nothing from character related merchandises sales

And therein lies how speculation is derived, as "anime" can be as narrow as a studio or as wide as possible.
If by anime production company, you mean studio, that's pretty hard to believe. Can't dispute it, but for a studio, it's another avenue.

Unless, those investors paid for that license as well.

A distributor of a series may not want to cover the fees of merchandising.

Let's take your avatar, Haruhi Suzumiya from the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya for example. Do you know how the licensing of her character related merchandising works?

The 2006 anime TV adaptation of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya by Kyoto Animation was based on the preexisted 2003 sci-fi light novel of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya published by Kadokawa Shoten, written by Nagaru Tanigawa, and with the main character Haruhi Suzumiya designed by Noizi Ito. Long story short; the original copyright of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya belongs to Nagaru Tanigawa, the original copyright of the character design of Haruhi Suzumiya belongs to Noizi Ito, the original licensee of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is Kadokawa Shoten, while the copyright holder of the anime TV adaptation of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya belongs to Kyoto Animation. And the anime DVD licensed distributor of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is Bandai Entertainment, a subdivision of Bandai, who just also happens to own Kadokawa Shoten.

In summary, as only a subcontractor who was only responsible for animating the Kadokawa Shoten licensed & sponsored Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya franchise, Kyoto Animation can only claim copyright on the anime series of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya which they did made, but not the character Haruhi Suzumiya. For her visual is an intellectual property belongs to her original creators, Noizi Ito.

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He said that Japan should emphasize quality over quantity, such as teaching anime production in national universities and raising better workers, as the way to strengthen Japan's economy.

I believe this to be exactly the problem with anime. There's just way too many shows being produced (and the quality level is pretty low). Anime companies should stop oversaturating the market with derivatives shows and instead concentrate on making significantly fewer but better quality shows. The viewers will come.

Not long ago it was pointed out clearly by the stats that the industry makes most of it's money off "character goods" such as other merchandise, or in other words things that can't be directly copied in the way the actual shows are for fansubs. And most of the fall in the overall profits of the industry happened in this area as well. Yes, the DVD sales also fell, but this area that shouldn't have been hurt at all by fansubs did as well.

I think the industry just hasn't had a lot of really strong products that made people want to buy merchandise.

I think this is kind of a shame because I like a lot of the newer things. I have no problem with the "moe" trends or any of those other things because I'm one of those who likes these things. Unfortunately it looks like a lot of people don't.

Xanas wrote:

Not long ago it was pointed out clearly by the stats that the industry makes most of it's money off "character goods" such as other merchandise, or in other words things that can't be directly copied in the way the actual shows are for fansubs. And most of the fall in the overall profits of the industry happened in this area as well. Yes, the DVD sales also fell, but this area that shouldn't have been hurt at all by fansubs did as well.

I think the industry just hasn't had a lot of really strong products that made people want to buy merchandise.

I think this is kind of a shame because I like a lot of the newer things. I have no problem with the "moe" trends or any of those other things because I'm one of those who likes these things. Unfortunately it looks like a lot of people don't.

I love buying character goods. In fact, it might be the way that many of my friends and I spend money on anime merchandise. Doesn't Bandai make more from Gunpla than it does from DVDs? I can see why, spending $50 on a Master Grade is nothing, and I think I'd get more out of it than buying DVDs. My friend blew $100 on fig of Hime from Monster Princess, but he'd never buy the DVDs or the manga. Clearly merchandising needs to be pushed harder.

I haven't really watched an anime I liked that was made in the last 2-3 years. either way, before that, I only have about 10 movie animes that I want to buy. Most shows I just watch on tv if I like it (nothing currently) not into watching anime on the internet (I want to spend less time off the pc).

This hasn't stopped me from buying art books and manga, but now I only have 3 mangas I want to buy right now and only 2-3 series I follow as scanlations since they haven't come out yet.

I'll definitly would appreciate quality over quantity but to have quality is to have more respect to workers. Lately i'm hearing to many anime/manga artists complaining about pay and conditions.

I'm sure many of you have noticed the increasingly bad drawings in anime.

DomFortress wrote:

while the copyright holder of the anime TV adaptation of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya belongs to Kyoto Animation.

Er, no. The copyright holder of the TV series is the "SOS Dan" which is the name for the Haruhi production committee. (Kadokawa, Bigshot, etc)

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And the anime DVD licensed distributor of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is Bandai Entertainment, a subdivision of Bandai, who just also happens to own Kadokawa Shoten.

No, not even close. The license to the series in the US is owned by Kadokawa Pictures USA with localization, production, and distribution licensed to Bandai Ent. (USA).

Furthermore, Kadokawa is an independent company. Kadokawa and Bandai have a number of business dealings but neither owns the other.

vashfanatic wrote:

3) People don't just use fansubs, they actually rip DVDs and post them online. This needs to be stopped, and fansubbers aren't doing enough to oppose it.
----
3) A return to the sharing-your-stuff model of anime from back in the days of anime clubs etc. Not only will it encourage anime fans to actual get to know each other in RL, it will also encourage a legal network of sharing anime to preview it.

Firstly high five to sharing. I miss the ADVocates. That really did help out a lot.

As for the first part I run into more of that then fansubs actually. maybe thats because YT takes them down. But I can think of sevearl YT users posting dubs of a show that rumbles....I'm a tad confused however. Why are fansubbers suppose to stop DVD rippers?

bayoab wrote:

DomFortress wrote:

while the copyright holder of the anime TV adaptation of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya belongs to Kyoto Animation.

Er, no. The copyright holder of the TV series is the "SOS Dan" which is the name for the Haruhi production committee. (Kadokawa, Bigshot, etc)

Quote:

And the anime DVD licensed distributor of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is Bandai Entertainment, a subdivision of Bandai, who just also happens to own Kadokawa Shoten.

No, not even close. The license to the series in the US is owned by Kadokawa Pictures USA with localization, production, and distribution licensed to Bandai Ent. (USA).

Furthermore, Kadokawa is an independent company. Kadokawa and Bandai have a number of business dealings but neither owns the other.

So in the end, Kyoto Animation still gets nothing from character related merchandises sales. Thank you for your contribution.

Xanas wrote:

Not long ago it was pointed out clearly by the stats that the industry makes most of it's money off "character goods" such as other merchandise,

It's been pointed out in other threads, but this statement is not as useful as it might be because it comes from data which lumps mass-market children's shows--which do make their money from advertising sponsors and toy sales and virtually no video sales--together with niche-market late-night adult (otaku) targeted shows--which are a very different market and rely a lot more heavily on disc sales as a percentage of income (they're the descendents of last century's OVA market).

Still, that's merely the current state of the non-children's market and not some kind of rule for how things have to be.

Quote:

In summary, as only a subcontractor who was only responsible for animating the Kadokawa Shoten licensed & sponsored Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya franchise, Kyoto Animation can only claim copyright on the anime series of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya which they did made, but not the character Haruhi Suzumiya. For her visual is an intellectual property belongs to her original creators, Noizi Ito.

And,....as we have already said before, KyoAni SHOULD NOT have haruhi character as their intellectual property. When anime studios act as subcontractors to advertise an intellectual property that belongs to someone else (who pays partly for the project, or gives the studio access to monetize the content it produces for them), it is absurd to even assume that the studio should gain rights over the intellectual property it advertises.

Its like hiring an advertising company to do a TV ad campaign about...lets say Coca Cola, and then saying that the advertising company should get a cut out of Coca Cola sales (or even worse, take over the brand name/copyright). The industry does not work in this way, nor should it ever.

Having said that, there are in-house projects that anime studios start so as to have exclusive rights over all monetising aspects of the content produced. Many original story anime are made this way, and there are certain studios that prefer that kind of projects, due to the high profits they gain if they succeed. The reason these projects are not as many as anticipated, is high risk in case of the show fails to attract consumers, and the fact that the anime studio tries to circumnavigate the huge and monolithic distribution and production system that is the mainstay (and curse) of japanimation.

Well, it's unfortunate but We've all seen the Dvd Anime isle reduction in stores and their disappearances as a whole. It's too bad really, I really like seeing Anime on tv and domesticated because I like to see the fans and little kids get excited over something that feels new to them.

However, I guess pirated/gray area online distribution is just way too common to be helpful unlike they use to, and I really don't think of official online distribution as a good thing yet because there isn't much marketing and product pushing for shows online, and it's only that that holds my interests in Anime as a whole anymore (Not that I don't have favorite series, just the over all spectrum, it's the only aspect that I find interesting).

A solution... I don't know... probably time is best, but I wonder if Fansubbers and Raw providers would be more open to leaving and translating advertisements in their videos. It may give people more incentive to buy movies, keep sponsors slightly happy (at the idea of their product being marketed world wide for free)... or at least convince fans to buy video editing software to cut them out...

I think this highlights the underlying problem that the West could see years ago. It is the old Japanese problem of only viewing the world inside their own borders. It's no surprise to me that they are only now realising that the "bubble has burst" when they they operated so closely, blindly, and deafly in denial within it. They are finally asking the question, why is the popularity of our anime, and manga growing year on year, but our sales of DVDs, books, and merchandise are falling in those same years? Isolationism is so imbreed in their nature, it takes a shock like the bubble bursting to wake them up to the real world. However one thing the Japanese are good at is quick restructure when problems are finally noticed, hence the Government move to set up a consortium for the expansion of overseas anime and manga markets. Anime will still exist, but not as we know it today. It all depends on your likes, and dislikes, whether you view that as a good, or bad thing.

DomFortress wrote:

I wasn't making things up.

CRAP! PDF files come up blank (I'm assuming they're in Japanese).
Would have been an interesting read.

Since I only have the article to go off, this news doesn't surprise me, and I've covered this in that other thread (regarding copyright).

What I find ironic is how distributors take the supply & demand model approach to picking up licenses. It's proof that shows competition, increased supply, and value all affect the cost one is willing to pay.

Expect more of those ~250 anime studios to shut their doors if the above continues to happen.

Quote:

Do you know how the licensing of her character related merchandising works?

Given our history regarding copyright, let's hope we don't go down that road again.

I concede the fact I do not know 100% how merchandising works. But, neither do you or anyone else.

Welcome to the secretive nature of the anime industry.

However, (and this is my speculation) I derive the system much the same way the U.S. does, given much of the licensing models used around the world stem from the way this country does it.

I do agree with you regarding who owns the original copyright in regard to Haruhi, but I also know enough about derivative works to understand the limits of that copyright.

Because the original owner can not claim revenues from derivative works if he assigned those copyrights to another party unless specified in the contracts.

And I'm pretty confident the original owner knows the processes to take a manga to animation, and thus, probably waives a great deal of merchandising rights.

Authors do the same thing when releasing their books for movie adaptations.

I'm sure they receive some compensation (usually royalties), but certainly not to the levels in which the distributor gets.

George Lucas was an extremely smart man. He released all rights to this thing called "Star Wars" for 100% control over merchandising. 20th Century Fox probably laughed their asses off at this ridiculous contract.

But they didn't laugh for long, did they. To this day, Lucas' company is worth is more than all the revenues the Star Wars movies made combined.

So much so was this not a laughing matter, I guarantee a contract like this will never be offered again when it comes to "movie rights".

If a studio/distributor couldn't retain much of the merchandising rights, anime would die instantly. There is no way DVD sales alone can save this industry.

What really sucks, DomFortress, is that the anime industry (of all entertainment) is the only sector which can not offset costs of a bad anime with a good one.

This factor alone stresses the industry to breaking points, and the PDF article you linked only adds insult to injury.

I feel for anime artists, who struggle with small salaries, deadlines, and the fear of not knowing if their job will be around tomorrow.

But at the same time, I know my DVD purchase isn't going to save them. All that does is to help ensure the distributor can license another series, but there's no guarantee the series picked up will be from the same studio.

The fact above is what 99% of those "anti fan subbers" just don't get.

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