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Why do Americans hate/dislike Hayao Miyazaki's movies?


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infinitebeauty



Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 75
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:13 pm Reply with quote
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Foreign movies usually don't do as well at the box office


Yep, pretty much. The reason that Miyazaki doesn't do as well as Disney or Pixar? Most likely because it is foreign. I don't think it has much to do with the themes being 'in-betweeny', but more because Disney has done their research, noticed foreign films don't do as well, and so do small releases.

I don't know for sure though. I tend to enjoy Miyazaki on the same level that I enjoy Pixar and Disney (ie. a great deal), but I know that a lot of people don't. And that's ok!
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David.Seth



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:31 pm Reply with quote
infinitebeauty wrote:
Quote:
Foreign movies usually don't do as well at the box office


Yep, pretty much. The reason that Miyazaki doesn't do as well as Disney or Pixar? Most likely because it is foreign. I don't think it has much to do with the themes being 'in-betweeny', but more because Disney has done their research, noticed foreign films don't do as well, and so do small releases.


I looked up the highest grossing foreign film, which was Kung Fu Hustle, and it only made 17.1 million. However, it was released on over 2000 screens.

You know, if Disney was to release Ponyo on 2000 screens, it may not break that record, but think of all the people who see it that had not been properly exposed to anime. Yeah Disney would take a hit, but maybe in the long run they would make there money back with DVD sales or merchandising?
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:36 pm Reply with quote
David.Seth wrote:
I looked up the highest grossing foreign film, which was Kung Fu Hustle, and it only made 17.1 million. However, it was released on over 2000 screens.


What? Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon made US$128,078,872 "domestically", and US$85,446,864 in "foreign" markets. Which is more than the US$100,914,445 Kung Fu Hustle made worldwide.
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hypersoda



Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 157
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:55 pm Reply with quote
David.Seth wrote:
infinitebeauty wrote:
Quote:
Foreign movies usually don't do as well at the box office


Yep, pretty much. The reason that Miyazaki doesn't do as well as Disney or Pixar? Most likely because it is foreign. I don't think it has much to do with the themes being 'in-betweeny', but more because Disney has done their research, noticed foreign films don't do as well, and so do small releases.


I looked up the highest grossing foreign film, which was Kung Fu Hustle, and it only made 17.1 million. However, it was released on over 2000 screens.

You know, if Disney was to release Ponyo on 2000 screens, it may not break that record, but think of all the people who see it that had not been properly exposed to anime. Yeah Disney would take a hit, but maybe in the long run they would make there money back with DVD sales or merchandising?


However, in the end, it is simply all up to Disney to decide how they want to release it. If they don't think it will make so much, they'll do a limited release, this way they won't spend as much. It's mostly a money issue, and if they think something will be a hit, they'll release it everywhere, but if they don't think it will be a hit, they won't bother to spend that much money just to only earn part of it back. Even if they do earn money back in the long wrong, they can't be entirely sure. It's different when you get big-name Pixar titles, which they know everyone will flock to and earn profit within the first few weeks, whereas if they release one of Miyazaki's works, there is a greater chance it may not do as well because it is pretty much out of their norm for large theatrical releases. In this economy, even the bigger guys such as Disney will take a hit, and even moreso because less people are probably going to the movies because they can't afford it (Seriously, do you notice how expensive movie theaters are?). A Pixar film is more likely to get a huge turnout because they are well known for making amazing children's movies and the parents can be almost 100% sure that their kids will enjoy it. They will be willing to spend the money because of this. This makes the percentage very high that Disney will make their money back, as opposed to releasing Miyazaki's titles in a nation-wide theater release.

However, now that I think about it, I think it can also work in reverse. If they attach the Disney name to it and market it enough, it could probably work, seeing how Disney is obviously popular. If parents see the Disney name associated with it, the chances may be greater that they'll take their kids to see it (because Disney is a key children's company in the USA) if the movie recieves high marketing.

However, I think Disney would rather not change their formula for anime and Pixar films for one sole reason: It works. They make plenty of money from it already, and if they mess with that plan, it could possibly screw with their profits, and they'd rather not take that chance. Maybe in the future when the economy gets a little better, but definitely not now.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:09 pm Reply with quote
Bah, let me start off by saying that I like Hoodwinked! It's not some great example of what animation can do, but I'll be damned if it isn't a fun and funny film that's just plain entertaining. Really though, the questions can be reversed. Why do US Anime fans, or "otaku", hate/dislike domestic animation?

There's likely a lot of reasons, first of which would be that foreign films already have a large mark against them. It's considered risky for theaters to take them, and this is at a time when just being in business is a huge risk for theaters. Anime is a niche market, so getting it shown on a lot of screens just isn't a huge likelihood.

Then you have the style of storytelling and the art itself. Believe it or not, this just doesn't always fit for some people. It may seem to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for you, but there are others who just aren't interested in the prevalent style seen in anime or in Miyazaki's work. Doesn't mean it's bad, it just means they have different tastes than you. The US has a different culture than Japan, so it shouldn't be shocking that the culture leans towards different styles than what is presented from Japan.

Then you get those effected by the stigma of it being anime. Believe it or not, a lot of this can be attributed to the fans themselves. When you try to preach the greatness of anime to others and talk about its virtues and what makes it better, often times you just come off as arrogant or a jerk to others. Maybe you don't do this specifically, but I think we've all met those anime fans that do. Unfortunately this causes many peoples opinions of anime to be scarred by these overzealous morons who try to shove it down their throats, and so they develop a bias before they even actually see their first anime. It sucks, yeah, but it's not unique to anime. It happens with genres of music, books, ways of life, clothes, and so on. First impressions are crucial, and if someones first impression of anime is some geeky, pushy kid who plays up anime as if everything else is awful in comparison, then that impression is going to last.

The list could really go on and on, but there's really no point. What it really comes down to is differences in culture and variance of opinion. Just because you think something is great doesn't mean it is; if someone else decides they're not interested then that is their choice, same as thinking Hoodwinked is a piece of crap is your choice where as I disagree entirely. Heck, as another testament; I am an anime fan and I love Miyazakis work, but I honestly did not care for Howls Moving Castle. I thought it was a mess, especially the further along it went. It was pretty, but if I wanted pretty I'd buy the artbook. So see? This variance occurs quite a bit even within the fanbase and like minds, that it occurs on a larger scale beyond that shouldn't be a shocker.
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David.Seth



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:37 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
Bah, let me start off by saying that I like Hoodwinked! It's not some great example of what animation can do, but I'll be damned if it isn't a fun and funny film that's just plain entertaining.

While I wouldn't call it the worst film I've seen, in my eyes it will always be a smolderin piece of poo. I will admit that there were a couple jokes that did make me chortle. a lil.
Keonyn wrote:

Really though, the questions can be reversed. Why do US Anime fans, or "otaku", hate/dislike domestic animation?

Well thats a good question. I haven't been a part of the forums long enough to know where most other members stand on that issue, but for me, I love all animation, both foreign and domestic. I was raised on Disney and Don Bluth movies as a kid, And saw almost every animated movies that came out to theaters starting with An American Tail (finally stopped around when Lilo And Stich came out). When I was little I would watch Noozles or Tom & Jerry or TMNT on TV. I remember in the 4th or 5th grade racing home to catch the afternoon airings of Batman the Animated Series and Animaniacs. And I still watch American cartoons to this day (though not as much). Any anime fan that has that kind of attitude to US animation is only limiting themselves. Yes Disney will never make an Evangelion or Ninja Scroll (although, those would be some interesting musicals). But Disney, as well as Warner Brothers, Fox, have made some really good 2D movies, and Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network/Adult Swim, Fox, WB, ABC, and many others have or continue to show good animated shows. Yes most are aimed towards the younger crowd, but that doesn't mean older people can't enjoy Avatar or Zim or Dexters Lab or Fosters. I was really, really down when Iron Giant bombed at the theaters. I tried to get my friends to see it, but they all would rather see Blair Witch. THAT was a rip off Sad
Keonyn wrote:

Then you have the style of storytelling and the art itself. Believe it or not, this just doesn't always fit for some people. It may seem to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for you, but there are others who just aren't interested in the prevalent style seen in anime or in Miyazaki's work. Doesn't mean it's bad, it just means they have different tastes than you. The US has a different culture than Japan, so it shouldn't be shocking that the culture leans towards different styles than what is presented from Japan.

I know all about having different likes and tastes in movies. I like some of the strangest stuff, and yet can't stand typical American Pie or Armageddon-esque movies. And I agree that there probably are a lot of people who would not want to see his movies based solely on the style. It took me a while to get used to his style, and honestly I never liked the character designs in his/Ghibli films. Despite this, I still think that there is a huge amount of the general public who aren't even aware of these movies. I was talking to a coworker today about Ponyo, and she asked me who it was by. I told her it was from the same guy that made Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle. She looked at me as if I had just spoken a different language. I tried to give brief plot synopsis of the films to see if she would get what movies I was talking about. After a couple minutes it was clear that despite being a movie geek, she straight up didn't know who Miyazaki was, nor had she even heard of his films. And I've run into many others just like her.

Now I want to get one thing straight, while I am on a bit of a rant in this thread, I never, ever try to be pushy about anime to people around me. I understand that anime, no, animation isn't for everyone. I always try to respect that. But since I'm posting ANN forums, I may come off a bit pushy since I'm not really trying to be sensitive.
Keonyn wrote:

The list could really go on and on, but there's really no point. What it really comes down to is differences in culture and variance of opinion. Just because you think something is great doesn't mean it is; if someone else decides they're not interested then that is their choice, same as thinking Hoodwinked is a piece of crap is your choice where as I disagree entirely. Heck, as another testament; I am an anime fan and I love Miyazakis work, but I honestly did not care for Howls Moving Castle. I thought it was a mess, especially the further along it went. It was pretty, but if I wanted pretty I'd buy the artbook. So see? This variance occurs quite a bit even within the fanbase and like minds, that it occurs on a larger scale beyond that shouldn't be a shocker.

Thats not the first time that kind of opinion of Howls. Miyazaki is not perfect, and neither are his films. I really did enjoy Spirited Away, but I liked Princess Mononoke better. I've always been forgiving towards animated movies if the plot was a little weak or pacing was bad or what not. Heck, you HAVE to do that for almost all of Don Bluth's films and yet his are some of my absolute favorite animated movies. Same thing with Akira or Ninja Scroll or 5cm Per Second or Whisper of the Heart... they all aren't perfect, but I tend to look the other way so I can enjoy the visual medium. Unless of course its REALLY bad.
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eyeresist



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Comments here about the distribution factor seem right on the money to me.

Also, compare how they are advertised (to the extent Miyazaki is advertised at all). Miyazaki film trailers tend to skew arthouse. They always start with "From award-winning Japanese film maker Hayao Miyazaki...", and that's three strikes right there: awards=boring, Japanese=foreign, Hayao Miyazaki=weird name. Compare that with the average US production trailer, full of slapstick, gurning, and raucous pop culture riffing, Pop Culture Riffing, POP CULTURE RIFFING!!!! (which isn't actually funny, and which none of the kids in the audience will even understand).


BTW, I'm not a huge Miyazaki fan, though I respect his achievements. Of his films, I only rate Kiki's Delivery Service, Princess Mononoke, and Spirited Away as completely successful.
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cyberbeing



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:18 am Reply with quote
As others have mentioned a bit in this thread, the success of Miyazaki movies in America really shouldn't be compared to mainstream, big name animation/cg flicks.

A much better judge would be comparing them to well rated independent, foreign, artistic, and film festival type films. It is not just about the limited releases and lack of advertising. These type of films just have a limited viewer base, considering they are not what your typical American movie-goer expects or even wants to see. You can blame Hollywood for that...

In the non-anime fan crowd, I would assume Miyazaki films get a large fraction of the independent film viewing crowd and next to nothing of the mainstream crowd. These are films which a mainly adult and the older crowd would go out to see, not what a young mom and her 5-10 year old kid(s) would go to. It's not to say these some films aren't excellent, it just that it's very rare for any independent/foreign/artistic film to go mainstream.

That is not to say it isn't possible for someone like Disney to push Miyazaki films more mainstream, but the amount of money involved to do so would carry a big risk with the chance of a minimal return on investment. Of course, if the majority of critics from the major newspapers and websites are giving it rave reviews and recommend it as a great view for all audiences, that would give such a plan a much better chance of success.
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David.Seth



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:24 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
David.Seth wrote:
I looked up the highest grossing foreign film, which was Kung Fu Hustle, and it only made 17.1 million. However, it was released on over 2000 screens.


What? Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon made US$128,078,872 "domestically", and US$85,446,864 in "foreign" markets. Which is more than the US$100,914,445 Kung Fu Hustle made worldwide.


whoa my bad. Upon closer inspection, Kung Fu Hustle is the highest grossing foreign language movie in America. So that would mean Crouching Tiger was dubbed, right? Anyway, if Crouching Tiger can make over a 100 million, then why cant Ponyo make at least 50 million? Disney should market the dang thing as if they made it themselves.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:33 am Reply with quote
David.Seth wrote:
whoa my bad. Upon closer inspection, Kung Fu Hustle is the highest grossing foreign language movie in America. So that would mean Crouching Tiger was dubbed, right? Anyway, if Crouching Tiger can make over a 100 million, then why can't Ponyo make at least 50 million? Disney should market the dang thing as if they made it themselves.


Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was subbed (not dubbed; not in English at any rate). It also had massive Oscar hype (for a foreign language film), which must have helped its box office performance.

You are right that Anime movies get far too little recognition in the American market. And that isn't going to change in long while. I mean, if high-quality films such as Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away didn't permanently raise Anime's profile, what hopes does the industry have? Especially in this current economic climate.

Basically, I'm too happy that Anime is still reaching foreign shores to worry about what Hollywood is doing. Yeah sure there is a huge profit to potentially be made, but currently it just seems like too much hassle and risk for too little reward. How that situation changes over time will be looked at closely; there is always someone who is looking to make a windfall. Once the economy turns we might, that is might, see more interest in Anime movies. Perhaps the Neon Genesis Evangelion live-action movie could be greenlighted while they are at it; that would be so cool.
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rti9



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:51 am Reply with quote
David.Seth wrote:
whoa my bad. Upon closer inspection, Kung Fu Hustle is the highest grossing foreign language movie in America. So that would mean Crouching Tiger was dubbed, right?

According to wikipedia, it was the highest grossing foreign language film in the United States in 2005.
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Toucanbird



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:15 am Reply with quote
I'm going to go with a more straightforward psychological approach to answer this question.

Honestly, I think it might have more to do with Miyazaki's animation style.

As a fan of both American and Japanese animation, I've seen some significant differences in animation made for children. As stated earlier, American children are extremely simpleminded and are easily scared. I'm not going to lie, I saw Spirited Away when I was about 17 and I thought it was quite strange and different from what I'm used to. I can't imagine how 10 year-olds would respond to it.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Miyazaki films now. However, I think partially why Miyazaki films struggle in the U.S. is due to children (and parents) not showing any interest in Miyazaki's artistic style. They'd rather have their brains turned to mush by crap like Doogal rather than go see something as beautiful as Spirited Away.

That's all I'll leave it at. American kids are stupid. Trust me, when I have kids, they'll get to see anime at an earlier age because to me, I think anime is much better than American cartoons.
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David.Seth



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:17 pm Reply with quote
rti9 wrote:
David.Seth wrote:
whoa my bad. Upon closer inspection, Kung Fu Hustle is the highest grossing foreign language movie in America. So that would mean Crouching Tiger was dubbed, right?

According to wikipedia, it was the highest grossing foreign language film in the United States in 2005.



ok thats it. im getting glasses Anime dazed

Toucanbird wrote:

....That's all I'll leave it at. American kids are stupid. Trust me, when I have kids, they'll get to see anime at an earlier age because to me, I think anime is much better than American cartoons.


lol That is part of the problem. But if parents encouraged their kids to try new things (like what you plan to do) then it wouldn't be so bad.
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Fletcher1991



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:11 pm Reply with quote
Spirited away was really good. Howl's Moving castle was also good but not really amazing or as good as Spirited Away. Princess Mononoke I have yet to see but I am sure it is good. I will watch it eventually.
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animeboy12



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:17 pm Reply with quote
I'm definitely siding with Keonyn on this one. It's easy for anime fans to attack and criticize other works of animation from different areas while forgetting the baggage with anime.

As most of the other poster have said it's mainly a culture thing. Also lets not forget critically Miyazaki not alone at the top. I'd say pixer has released some works on or above Miyazaki's quality.

Also, I don't think American Kids are stupid, that's just a silly generalization. In almost any medium the mass is typical going to gravitate towards the familiar.
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