Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2009-05-15]
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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one aspect of the old-fansub/new-fansub debate that people seem to be ignoring is that in the VHS tape-trading days, people BOUGHT and IMPORTED the anime to be fansubbed. A few, of course, had connections in Japan that would send them cruddy VHS tapes recorded from Japanese television, but those were few and far between, and were mainly for longer shows like DBZ.
now, all people need to do is check around Japanese P2P services and wait for a raw file to show up, and bam. |
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Farix
 Posts: 152 |
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Thanks for touching on the whole fansub issue. In particular comparing fansubs in the '90s and now. Back then, there wasn't an anti-industry attitude among fansubbers or distributors. It was quite the opposite as most fansubbers wanted to promote the industry, or at the very least do as little harm as possible. That's why companies largely ignored them. But now that the whole attitude has changed and fansubbers and downloaders don't give a damn about the industry or to a large extent "the community", it can't be ignored any longer.
What can be done? I'm not sure if there really is anything that can yield results unless the entire industry disappears overnight. I'm not sure how affective it is to educate the fansub groups and the downloaders about the impact fansubs have on the community as a whole. In part, because they are only in it for themselves and don't care about the community. It is also exceedingly difficult because the anime community is so fractured. Many fansubbers are in it only for their own glory. That is why we see stylized karaoke in the OPs/EDs, sticking themselves into the credits while leaving the credits untranslated, and etc. And if/when the rubes complain about these self-serving facets, "f* them, they should be thankful that X-anime is being fansub in the first place," is the typical response. |
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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Its like I said though. In terms of concept and pitching to producers and sponsors, I can see why the shows get green lited in terms that its a novel idea and concept. But it wasn't very entertaining. South Park, Futurama and Family Guy does the same thing your praising Morel Orel but it also enterains those who don't want to dig that deep into that stuff or over-analyze. Concept and subject matter is fine merit for green lighting and a few seasons but a boring show is still boring to the point they start stretching for subject matter and resort to random clay porn. But that's a bit biase I guess. I prefer my comedy and humor to actually make me laugh out load or the moment make me laugh, you know the more upfront stuff, rather then the "hmm... yes... Intellectually the humor in this episode was quite exquisite. ha ha ha ha" or the "dude.... that guys a meatball.... and he sounds like he ate one of the chipmunks..." type of deal. ....."Beamda! Zettai Beamda!" "Deru ga Ahou!" "Ursai na Omae! Zettai beamda! Deleka nantipo beamda beamda BEAMDA nichigainai!".... sorry... Been watching One Piece again. |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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Bear in mind that response is usually to people who complain if a show is even a day later than they want it to be, or who constantly ask when something will be ready, or is it dropped, etc. etc. And as I said before, a lot of fansubbing fans actually want the fancy karaoke. I guess it makes them feel they're getting something special...? All I'm saying is, there are jerks on both sides of the equation. |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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X/1999 was the manga series that I forced myself to read through, even though I wasn't liking the beginning that much. Then it really started picking up I believe after volume 6. Then I was stuck on it. The flake is definitely a feminist.
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blind_assassin
 Posts: 755 |
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I'm sad I missed that last Answerman. Full Metal Panic was pretty much the only show I ever forced myself to watch and the only reason I did so was because after about 5 episodes I thought to myself "This is probably the most loathsome piece of garbage I've ever watched" and wanted bulletproof credibility in my semi-regular vitriol I spout against it.
With mad money I'd like to maybe make a Guyver suit or something. There's a few character costumes I wouldn't mind having but probably wouldn't require incredible amounts of money to do (I'd love to get my hands on a few of the shirts Travis Touchdown has in No More Heroes). |
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jr240483
 Posts: 4378 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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I'd might have to agree cause even i'm seeing to start the decline.However i'm diehard so i'm not throwing in the towel for anime on TV just yet. There's still new epsiodes of bleach showing and Moribito is expecting to return in the summer on AS.Not to mention the 2nd season of Gundam 00 of Sci Fi's Ani-monday.If there's decent anime showing on TV with respectable timeslots,then there's no reason to believe that it's dead for TV broadcasts.
True,but to me the voltron let alone any old mecha epsiodes are as good as in the old days.Also not mentioning the gundams nor the robotech mechs for consideration for being made is a cardinal sin for mecha junkies.
I would be really interesting to the the 1 season of them.It'll really gives those dark cornered otakus paradise. 
[EDIT: Please stick to standard text formats; save the colors and bolding for emphasizing particular words and phrases.~Zalis] |
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Stretch2424
 Posts: 166 |
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Blind_Assasin wrote:
Here you go: animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2009-05-08 We are in Forum mode right now, but just go to Views, select Hey Answerman, and then the date of the column you are looking for. Man I loved the early days of Adult Swim--three hours of Yu Yu Hakusho, Cowboy Bebop, Gundam 0083, Outlaw Star, Tenchi Muyo--and what was that one about psychic space cadets? It was pretty sorry but back then I was fascinated by anything I could get. I didn't stumble upon AS until it was three or four weeks old, but I loved these strange shows nevertheless. There was a definite thrill to anime back when I had first discovered it; I was learning something new everyday. I wish it still felt that way today. Whenever I feel nostalgic I dust off an old VHS tape on which I recorded those shows. The station breaks that AS pieced together from clips of the six shows were great fun: "I will not be some beaten down dog!" |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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Everyone knows you only watch Full Metal Panic! so that you can understand the jokes in Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu. 
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writerpatrick
 Posts: 671 Location: Canada |
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I'm still trying to force myself to watch Code Geass. The whole thing with the English Empire (or whatever it is) is a bit of a turn off.
Before this year there really wasn't much alternative to fansubs other than to wait for the show to be picked up and either sold as overpriced DVDs or with luck to be run on TV stations that have now dropped alot of anime. So those with limited incomes didn't have a lot of choice other than to turn to fansubs. But now that companies are offering free anime online there's less need for fansubs now. The argument in support of fansubs is disappearing since legal subs of the shows are available within about the same time as the fansubs take. Of course that doesn't stop the problem with non-NA distribution, but it should only be a matter of time before the international restrictions are eliminated. And there'll always be obscure titles that aren't worth the bother to liscense and distribute, so it could be a while before fansubs completely disappear. I could see within five years time the majority of the anime community, which up to now has been somewhat sympathetic with fansubbers, turning against fansubs as legal internet distribution becomes more common and one can satisfy their anime cravings without the need download illegally. |
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Farix
Posts: 152 |
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I'm calling BS on this one. If you aren't willing to purchase the legal copy, then you shouldn't be downloading a fansub. And since you can "afford" to buy anime, then either be very selective in what you watch or find a less expensive hobby. Fansubs are only suppose to be used to placate us until the legal copies are available. I frequently use the "Will I buy it?" criterion to determine which anime series to following on fansub. It's also why I'm only following one series right now even though I'm interested in several others. I just didn't find them entertaining enough to buy a legal copy, so I simply stopped watching them.
I do wonder how marketable that is. How is Funimation or any other company going to make money from free streaming? You only see one — two at most — ads during the course of a stream, but that couldn't be enough to pay for the overhead costs.
I hate to say it, but fansubbing will always exists, even with the legal streaming services. Shangri-la and FMA Brotherhood are two such examples off the top of my head where there are legal streams available, yet there are other groups subbing them anys. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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My own memory might be seriously failing me right now, but apparently I've been fortunate enough to never really force myself to watch any anime title all the way through. I can tolerate a certain amount of problems and annoyances, sometimes even surprisingly so, but if I'm still watching a particular title, there's definitely something else that has caught my attention, objectively or subjectively, or at least certain expectations which may yet be fufilled.
I'm not much of a fan of the idea of "essential anime" so there is absolutely no hurry on my part to watch each and every significant anime series, for example, just so that my otaku credentials (which is actually a rather funny concept) can be complete, and thus it's very unlikely that I'll ever force myself to do so. When I decide to watch something, it will be at my own pace, not because of a "I just have to watch this" mentality. Still, Martha's opinion was an interesting and amusing read, if more than a little harsh as well, but I guess it's also a matter of taste in several respects. Never had any issues with Flow's OP or with CLAMP's designs, for example, and I don't think most mecha is supposed to be especially realistic to begin with. That's actually the exception rather than the rule. I could go on but I'm glad she found other reasons to like the series and not just out of questionable obligation. |
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Seljuk
 Posts: 139 |
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I guess I'm one of the people that *likes* karaoke. Not the big flashy kind, but maybe something subtle, a muted flash of the word, or something like. Even if I don't like it, I can still turn it off (well, usually).
What I don't understand is the font argument. Unless you have been living under a rock or just like to bash fansubs, softsubs will let you choose your own font to display with. Easy as pie. I just really find myself wanting my DVD releases to have that nice, bold, black outlined Arial font, instead of that weird yellow font. Also, my eyesight is a bit bad, and DVD subs make me squint. Adjustable text size in my fansubs? Awesome. Too low in the screen to follow the action? Just bump it up a little. Solved. Granted, I still buy, but I feel there are many many benefits of having a digital package rather than a DVD. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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Besides, the "it's softsubbed, you can change it" argument is a colossal cop-out. The fact that end users can change subtitle styles with some degree of difficulty doesn't absolve groups of the responsibility to make their text legible. And I disagree that it's "easy as pie." Yeah, it's easy when groups decide to provide .srt (unstyled) subs, but for releases with only .ass (styled) subs, it's a crapshoot. Sometimes media player override commands work, sometimes they don't. Let's take this example: ![[Chihiro] Akikan 05 - 01](http://s533.photobucket.com/albums/ee336/Zalis_116/?action=view¤t=Chihiro_Akikan_05_h264649037E2mkv-0.png)
Since checking the "Override Placement" options in Zoomplayer and MPC (which randomly succeeds at changing the appearance of .ass subs) has no discernible effect, here's what I have to do to make the subs more legible: Step 0: Obtain and install MKVExtract and Aegisub, if not already present on one's PC. (I label this Step 0 because I already had these programs.) Step 1: Open MKVExtract. Step 2: Select the file in question. Step 3: Click "Next," and select the subtitle track from the list of streams and fonts present in the file. Step 4: Click "Next" and let the extraction process commence. Step 5: Rename the resulting .ass file to match the file name of the original video file. Step 6: Open your new subtitle file with Aegisub. Step 7: Use Aegisub's Styles Manager to create a new style of your liking, or import one from storage if you have it. (I've got one ready to use for whenever I decide to undergo this process.) Step 8: Select all lines whose styles you need to change, being sure to omit karaoke and sign translations if those are softsubbed. (Note: You may wind up reading some of the lines during this process, so tough luck if you spoil yourself.) Change them to the new style you've created or imported. Step 9: Save the subtitle file, exit Aegisub, open the video, and hope everything works right in playing the subtitles you've created as an external file. Otherwise... Steps 10+: Obtain and learn how to use mkvtoolnix to recombine your new subtitles with the video file, thus completing the process of breaking the release in order to fix it. *repeat steps 1-9+ for every episode* Here's the result: 
Sorry, but that's not what I'd call quick, easy, or simple. More like "lengthy, tedious, time-consuming, and not at all intuitive for the average viewer." Believe me, I'd love to know if there's some simple solution I've been missing. Maybe it's just wistful nostalgia at work, but I actually think fansubs were more readable on average when everything was hardsubbed. Quality groups knew that people would be stuck with whatever styles they chose, and would complain if they were hard to read. They didn't have the "it's softsubbed" excuse to hide behind. For all its faults, at least that YamiBou fansub I referenced earlier (released Fall 2003) had a no-nonsense font, and was readable most of the time. |
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cnet128
 Posts: 65 |
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I think you must have just been unlucky with the fansubs you've seen. Yes, there are a lot of terrible fansubs out there, but there are plenty of fansubs out there that are good quality as well, and many more that are at least acceptable. Unsubbed lines, in particular, is an issue that I have quite simply never come across. With the possible exception of barely-audible lines in the background that are essentially "background noise" and as likely as not wouldn't end up in official subtitles/captions either, I've never encountered a fansub that just skipped over lines. Gratuitous swearing can be an issue, and it bothers me quite a bit when this happens (and indeed this extends to other examples of the speech clearly not being in a style that the character would actually use). But again, this is by no means a universal issue, and I'd say the majority of decent fansubs find a good balance which works well. The incorrect translations is probably the biggest issue of the three you mentioned, because I can't even count the fansubs that have irritated me to the point that I wouldn't even consider showing them to people who don't know any Japanese, because although their English may be fine, their Japanese comprehension is clearly not up to scratch. There are lines where they've clearly completely misunderstood the meaning, and whilst it may not make a huge difference to an English speaker watching it in the long run, it's still annoying, and if I was showing the sub to someone, I'd feel obliged to pause the video after each one and say "you see, actually what they said was...". But again, this is not a universal issue. It's more common than the bad English, but there are still plenty of fansubs out there that I can watch and be perfectly happy with their translations. I think the only reason why this is more of an issue than the others is that it's more difficult for the audience to actually spot it when it happens and stay away from it, unlike things like gratuitous swearing which any discerning individual with a grasp of English can spot a mile off and avoid like the plague. Oh, and although I do see mistranslations a lot, it's usually just the occasional line - most of the translation is generally fine. It's usually the case that fansubs which have a serious Japanese-comprehension issue are clearly substandard in other ways as well. Either way, I don't think there's any reason to "wonder why [fansubs] are so popular". It's because a) plenty of people couldn't care less about the quality of what they're watching, but more importantly b) for those who do care, there are plenty of fansubs out there which are perfectly good quality, and c) the most common issue, mistranslations, is subtle and largely invisible to a majority of the audience.
Eh, "kuso" isn't the only word that could be seen as a "Japanese swear word", you know. "Chikushou" comes to mind as another obvious example. And "~yagaru" is basically a "swear word", though not so obvious because it doesn't stand alone and doesn't really have any direct English equivalent. But yes, words in Japanese that would generally be translated into English "swear words", and other rude forms of speech that would perhaps be best interpreted into English by inserting swear words, don't have the same taboo on them as English swear words do, and are thus more versatile, so that it's left up to the translator to decide what "level" of bad language would be appropriate in an English version of any given sentence, whether it contains a "swear word" in Japanese or not. The issue comes in when translators, through immaturity or whatever other reason, misjudge this level and insert bad language that's just plain inappropriate for the material - or worse, when they're just so bad at what they do that they decide to translate every Japanese "swear word" by what they see as an English "equivalent", without thinking about whether it's appropriate or not. (So every "kuso" becomes "shit", every "yarou" becomes "assh0le", every "temee" becomes "you bastard"...) And it doesn't help when the less intelligent non-Japanese-speaking fans see such bad translation practices and take it as a sign that other translations are "censoring" the bad language, rather than just being more sensible about how they insert it. |
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