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Would you step out of your comfort zone?


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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:42 pm Reply with quote
In terms of both subject matter and time slot, I would nominate Uchuu Kyoudai ("Space Brothers") which airs at 7 am on Sunday mornings in Japan as perhaps the most "mainstream" current anime show. The main character is thirty-one, his brother a couple of years younger. Once in a while there is a joke aimed at the adults in the audience as in the opening to episode three, but otherwise it is just an uplifting (no pun intended) story about a misfit guy who wants to join his brother and become a Japanese astronaut.

This show routinely draws an audience rating in the threes, about double the viewership for most late-night offerings. Chihayafuru, as an example, aired at about 1:00 am on Wednesday mornings and was normally viewed in about 1.5-2.0% of television households. Like many shows its final episode had the largest audience, 3.3%.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:00 pm Reply with quote
bravetailor wrote:
and I bet you a lot of people here don't even like Citizen Kane, so "quality", as it were, is in the eye of the beholder


You're contradicting yourself. A minute ago you insisted that...

"There are always a few quality series every year. Some years are not as good as others, but many anime fans, I notice, always reach a point where they just get cynical about everything."

So which is it? You really can't have it both ways. You can't make objective claims that I'm wrong and that there are quality series with one breath and then claim that quality is subjective with the next. Either there are, in fact, high quality shows every year and I just can't appreciate them because I'm cynical/biased/whatever OR quality is in the eye of the beholder and my subjective opinion that there is less of it these days is just as valid as yours to the contrary.

Quote:
If someone has as vague tastes as "I like quality anime", then I question how much of a personality you really have.


Absolute nonsense. Being intelligent and open minded enough to simply appreciate quality without being tied to any particular genre is not a bad thing and really has nothing to do with personality. In fact, anyone who defines their personality as a product of "what type of shows I like" has little of it.
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:01 pm Reply with quote
bravetailor wrote:
I bet you a lot of people here don't even like Citizen Kane, so "quality", as it were, is in the eye of the beholder [...].

For whatever it may be worth, I am a fan of both Citizen Kane and Pulp Fiction..... Razz Laughing Embarassed
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Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 419
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:58 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Agreed. I'm inclined to agree with anyone who says that anime has declined since roughly 2007 and in fact, I find the suggestion that anime has remained perfectly constant in terms of quality (for better or worse) to be extremely...shall we say forced. That said, anyone who claims there have been no good shows for such an extended period is almost impossible for me to take seriously.

I really haven't watched anywhere as much anime as I did four years (although I've been watching more recently), but I've felt for a while that 2007 was the end of a fun ride. The anime bubble that had been building seemed to burst with 2008 or 2009. Shows that wouldn't get produced in poorer economic, or just experimental works that clearly inspired by everything but anime* seem to be come out throughout the last decade. There was a chart posted in an old thread where it showed the overall number of anime series produced each year for the past two decades, and I recall the time from 2003 to 2007 (give or take a few years) seem to be aberrations in the big picture.

In less words: the economy, due to the worldwide economic recession, change in media (DVD not selling as well, introduction of Blu-ray, etc.) and other factors have dictated that it's not financially sensible to spend money on a lot shows that (likely) won't make a profit.**

There are still plenty of quality shows being made. There have been plenty of good anime series that have come out in past four/five/whatever years. But personally, there haven't been any series, with a few exceptions (for me, that would be Madoka Magica and Kids on the Slope), that I would consider truly excellent/great. That's my primary issue. I admit that I still need to catch up on a few -- dtm42 has mentioned some in a previous post -- but I'm not sure how many unwatched series have really tried for something different.

Quote:
TitanXL wrote:
Everything Was Better When You Were Twelve. You'd think people would get suspicious why all the 'best' anime just so happened to be the ones they watched as kids (usually on Toonami and Adult Swim) , but I guess they just assumed those blocks had the most highest tastes and standards.


There is no correlation whatsoever between when I was young, when I started watching anime, and what I think was the strongest period for anime. You know precisely nothing about me or anyone else who has offered up criticisms of modern anime. So please, do us all a favor: Take your brainless assumptions and generalizations and leave this thread. Unless you have something specific to offer, you have nothing to contribute to this conversation.

I can attest to this. I've tended to watch my favorite series at least couple years after they come out -- the exceptions to this are in 2007. A lot of the series I was into as a pre-teen and young teenager -- which would include Toonami and [adult swim], as TitanXL mentions -- really have not held up well. Some others have stayed the same, while a few have improved. It's a matter of changing (and for some, maturing) tastes.

It also doesn't help that, since studying film in college, the world of entertainment has really opened in a big way. My tastes and standards have changed along with it. I'll admit it's arguably an unfair comparison. Live-action film isn't restricted to a very slow development of 40 year in one country, typically catering to a very niche audience with little interest in different or challenging works. It's a difference of a century and an amazing amount of countries contributing to world cinema.*** Yet at the same time, I don't think it's ridiculous to want high quality anime series and films in the face of such economic demands. A lot of my favorite anime series and films can be compared in quality to the best of live-action film and television, so it's certainly not as though those expectations cannot be met -- it's just that they often aren't.

*This is a bit of an exaggeration, but I feel that a lot of anime is too insular. This isn't a wish for anime to be "more Western" or whatever nonsense, but rather to take influences (animation, film, novels, music, painting) outside of anime. Miyazaki, Takahata, Anno, Ikuhara, Hamasaki, Nakamura (both Ryutaro and Kenji), Hosoda, Yuasa, Kamiyama, etc. are directors that don't confine themselves to that bubble. But they are exceptions to all of this. A lot of anime seems to be predominantly influenced by other anime, which just seems to create incestuous creativity. I liken the effect to Tarantino's films where his works (and the man himself) seems to be about nothing but films and references/homages to them. (Mind you, I really do like Pulp Fiction and Jackie Brown a lot, and feel that Death Proof is his only "bad" film, so I'm actually a fan.)

**Of course, the irony here is with some outliers. Mononoke, Kenji Nakamura's consensus masterpiece, is also his best-selling title (and one of the best-selling noitamina shows ever). Everything he's done since then (Trapeze, [C], Tsuritama) has been a step down, and is far less unique and experimental than what he was doing in Mononoke. I feel the same applies to Yuasa's work, as well...

***Not that anyone cares, but I do like Citizen Kane a lot, as well as Vertigo.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:36 pm Reply with quote
Bonham wrote:
That's my primary issue. I admit that I still need to catch up on a few -- dtm42 has mentioned some in a previous post -- but I'm not sure how many unwatched series have really tried for something different.


Shows don't have to try something different to be good. A simple story told well can still be be effective. Usagi Drop and Chihayafuru don't do anything all that new, they just tell their respective stories fantastically well using great casts. There's virtue in focusing on the basics and getting them right.


Last edited by dtm42 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 419
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:00 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Shows don't have to try something different to be good. A simple story told well can still be be effective. Usagi Drop and Chihayafuru don't do anything all that new, they just tell their respective stories fantastically well using great casts of story. There's virtue in focusing on the basics and getting them right.

Oh don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things that are "conventional" and "simple." (Edit: Kids on the Slope is a recent example of that, and at its core Madoka Magica is reaffirmation of the magical girl genre.) But an industry also needs variety to really thrive. I wouldn't want it all the time, but every year or so I wouldn't mind if anime broke out and produced something new/different like what American television does with The Wire, Deadwood, Mad Men, etc.
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The Third Doctor



Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:17 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I don't think you can just wait around and hope for a slew of good stuff to suddenly come out. You'd have a better time digging around older titles, especially OVAs, for stuff you haven't seen before. Perhaps that's a concession that new anime do suck, but that's not my personal view: I like older anime for different reasons than modern showings. If you want to remain a fan watching "new to you" anime, but you can't stand analog/cel anime, then you're gonna have a rough time of it going forward. If you're cool with older stuff, there's a world out there to explore – like how Zac didn't know much even about the 80s, even 70s series are getting subbed now.

Funny how everyone universally praises 1997-99, and yet in 2000 and 2001, it was a completely wasteland of forgettable junk aside from a handful of titles. It's almost as if all of the pent up talent and scripts that couldn't be made in the early 90s due to the bad economy exploded out for a few years and then completely dropped off.



This is basically my take. There are tons of old titles I have not seen.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:25 pm Reply with quote
Bonham wrote:
The anime bubble that had been building seemed to burst with 2008 or 2009. Shows that wouldn't get produced in poorer economic, or just experimental works that clearly inspired by everything but anime* seem to be come out throughout the last decade. There was a chart posted in an old thread where it showed the overall number of anime series produced each year for the past two decades, and I recall the time from 2003 to 2007 (give or take a few years) seem to be aberrations in the big picture.


Ah yes. I was actually the one that posted that and you're correct. We basically saw the quantity of anime steadily increase from the early 2000s up until 2007 and which point it went into decline. (Although I think we've seen positive growth since 2010). This is pretty much exactly in line with conventional wisdom that the anime boom began in the early 2000s as anime exploded in popularity (due in no small part to that insanely popular first wave of AdultSwim anime) and eventually burst in late 2007/early 2008 as Geneon/ADV melted down.

Quote:
But personally, there haven't been any series, with a few exceptions (for me, that would be Madoka Magica and Kids on the Slope), that I would consider truly excellent/great.


For what it's worth, I really really recommend you check out Kaiba and/or House of Five Leaves if you haven't already. Those two and Madoka are the only post 2007 series I really felt were truly excellent.*

*Of the stuff I've seen anyway. Again, I have a pretty big backlog.

Quote:
This is a bit of an exaggeration, but I feel that a lot of anime is too insular. This isn't a wish for anime to be "more Western" or whatever nonsense, but rather to take influences (animation, film, novels, music, painting) outside of anime. Miyazaki, Takahata, Anno, Ikuhara, Hamasaki, Nakamura (both Ryutaro and Kenji), Hosoda, Yuasa, Kamiyama, etc. are directors that don't confine themselves to that bubble. But they are exceptions to all of this. A lot of anime seems to be predominantly influenced by other anime, which just seems to create incestuous creativity.


Yes, I'd agree with that completely...

Quote:
I liken the effect to Tarantino's films where his works (and the man himself) seems to be about nothing but films and references/homages to them. (Mind you, I really do like Pulp Fiction and Jackie Brown a lot, and feel that Death Proof is his only "bad" film, so I'm actually a fan.)


...I'm not entirely sure about this comparison however. There's a fairly significant difference between being being influenced (exclusively) by other anime/film and being about anime/film. The prior tends to be excessively derivative and just generally apes what has already been done but the latter actually tries to say something about the medium and examine aspects of it. Meanwhile, homage I suppose falls somewhere in between, more deliberately making reference rather than just generally mimicking but without really actually saying anything.

I'd agree that limited influence tends to lead to stagnation and that's a major problem in anime. I'd also agree that, while homage and reference can be fun and I think have their place, they aren't usually excessively creative. Being "about" anime/film on the other hand I view as a positive thing. I mean, it could be a negative in so far as anything can be a negative if done in overabundance but otherwise I wouldn't lump it in with the other two.
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Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 419
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:59 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Ah yes. I was actually the one that posted that and you're correct. We basically saw the quantity of anime steadily increase from the early 2000s up until 2007 and which point it went into decline. (Although I think we've seen positive growth since 2010). This is pretty much exactly in line with conventional wisdom that the anime boom began in the early 2000s as anime exploded in popularity (due in no small part to that insanely popular first wave of AdultSwim anime) and eventually burst in late 2007/early 2008 as Geneon/ADV melted down.

Right. And really, I can't necessarily blame the anime studios and production committees too much. When times are tough, why stick your neck out when you can just produce safer titles?

Quote:
For what it's worth, I really really recommend you check out Kaiba and/or House of Five Leaves if you haven't already. Those two and Madoka are the only post 2007 series I really felt were truly excellent.*
I've seen and enjoyed both! I think House of Five Leaves pretty much achieves its goals, even if I don't feel as strongly about it as you do. Kaiba is a fascinating failure in narrative construction, or at least that's how I felt about it when I first saw it. Overall I enjoyed it a lot, and think it's something I should rewatch to see if its worth reevaluating my opinion on it.

Quote:
...I'm not entirely sure about this comparison however. There's a fairly significant difference between being being influenced (exclusively) by other anime/film and being about anime/film. The prior tends to be excessively derivative and just generally apes what has already been done but the latter actually tries to say something about the medium and examine aspects of it. Meanwhile, homage I suppose falls somewhere in between, more deliberately making reference rather than just generally mimicking but without really actually saying anything.

I agree with the overall point, even though I was a bit murky in my statements on Tarantino. I would say the latter point of your first sentence primarily applies to Inglourious Basterds, which seems to be his first real step in an original screenplay to really saying something about film and its relationship to society. (Jackie Brown is adapted from a novel, iirc.) His other films deal with plenty of themes (redemption, loyalty, motherhood, greed, etc.) but I don't really get a sense of who Tarantino is as a person outside of how much he loves film. (Which is necessarily a negative, but for me it leaves his stuff kinda empty once I get past his skill of being able to assemble a collage of disparate film ideas and moments into a cohesive, accessible plot.) I find the meta-fictional moments of Godard's '60s films more thoughtful (even if his movies are not as conventionally entertaining), and even some of the more meta moments in Hollywood studio era films to be more interesting (two favorite examples being Rear Window and The Lady Eve).

But that's neither here nor there as far as the topic is concerned, even though I'm up for continuing it, if you want.

Quote:
I'd agree that limited influence tends to lead to stagnation and that's a major problem in anime.
I think that, in addition to all of this, it becomes problematic when even creative folk don't have much wriggle room. Steins;Gate was mentioned earlier. I've enjoyed the first seven episodes of that (despite the obnoxious otaku-pandering tics), and plan to finish it eventually, but it comes up short of the quality I associate with Hiroshi Hamasaki (aside from the cinematography, which is still pretty good). Same thing applies with Masaaki Yuasa's Tatami Galaxy, which is good, solid entertainment... but fairly normal and disappointing when considering his resume.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:19 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Chihayafuru and Usagi Drop may not have aired in a mainstream timeslot, but it should be obvious that they are mainstream in design and execution. They are unlike your typical Otaku-orientated late-night Anime and appeal across a wide range of demographics. Both series could have - and in my opinion, should have - aired in family-friendly timeslots on a broadcaster like NHK.


By this logic K-ON is more mainstream than Dragonball or Fairy Tail due to it's design and execution, since it's more 'family friendly' and has a more accessible execution to it. (As if 'family friendly' means much in this instance. Watching a guy get cut in half and his blood spill out all over the place in Detective Conan is family friendly after all) There's quite a lot of buzzwords being thrown around here in generalizations which kind of defeats the whole purpose of wanting a specific type of anime. What exactly is a 'typical otaku late night anime' that these shows aren't like? Outlaw Star? Kuroko no Basuke? Persona 4? K-ON? Queens Blade? They're all late-night otaku series, but they're clearly not the same, so who says those two don't belong in this list either? 'Otaku anime' is one of the most grossly misused terms here. Kind of funny, given the whole 'stepping out of your comfort zone' the topic was originally about, but we're all so quick to shoehorn labels onto everything.

Bonham wrote:
Steins;Gate was mentioned earlier. I've enjoyed the first seven episodes of that (despite the obnoxious otaku-pandering tics)


Given it's based on a visual novel, you can't really say you're surprised it might have some 'otaku elements' to it.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:38 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Kind of funny, given the whole 'stepping out of your comfort zone' the topic was originally about, but we're all so quick to shoehorn labels onto everything.


Well, take a look in the mirror, because you're so quick to shoehorn Chihayafuru and Usagi Drop in with other late-night Anime just because of the timeslot in which they aired. You say that timeslot doesn't matter and yet you claimed that the two shows weren't mainstream just because of their timeslots.

But please, keep contradicting yourself. It makes it easier to rebut your arguments.
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naninanino



Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 680
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:12 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Being intelligent and open minded enough to simply appreciate quality without being tied to any particular genre is not a bad thing and really has nothing to do with personality.


There is however, a way how people should not be open minded. Like that you shouldn't pretend you like a show just because of courtesy. That's just a big waste of time and only worth it for the people who really enjoy meta-watching activites, like talking about it in forums, writing reviews or blogging. Of course it is reasonable that something like that could happen a few times when experimenting around, but the purpose of experimenting is to learn and not just growing your watching list. In a way, expanding your horizons can even make you more specialized once you can understand and accept the things you like (or don't like).
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4070
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:02 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

Usagi/Bunny Drop is a fantastic uplifting story with strong themes about family and responsibility. It's the sort of story that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside after watching it. Yeah, the art style is unusual but who cares? Rin is cuter than most kittens.


So you must pray to the deity of your choosing that they don't make the second season followup? As for me, the original Bunny Drop made my skin crawl and my face twist. Prior to the this series, I didn't even know I had lines that couldn't be crossed. And if the producers just wanted to do this kind of heartwarming "man-child rasies girl child" story, there are other titles that are less spoiler[incesty].

The topic thread isn't about that kind of comfort zone though. I guess I have lower standards and as long as I get my money's worth {I only watch new subbed anime free through Hulu so my overhead's very low. Zero, really.}, I'm fine with the quality.

Binbogama-ga! is a fantastically fun show, as well as Future Diary and I'm enjoying Accel World and Lagrange {now that I finally figured out the subtitles are controlled through the CC function}. The Anime Network offerings are almost unwatchable, unfortunately; They're still getting the hang of the "posting shows so people can watch them" aspect of posting shows so people can watch them.

Even with all that, I liked Another and Waiting in the Summer. I'm still waiting for the missing episodes of Listen to Me, I'm Your Father! as well as other shows of theirs to be finished if not updated. At all, even.

Why only Hulu? I've been using the service since it started and I'd rather stick to series that have the greatest potential for physical releases.
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dragoneyes001



Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 873
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:12 am Reply with quote
errinundra wrote:
@DanielCook,

Your OP is mildly trollish but that's OK - you haven't been offensive and you have set out a reasonable challenge. One of the things I have noticed with provocative posts is that the author often doesn't put their own tastes on the line. You don't have anything in your "My Anime" link. You don't say what constitutes worthwhile anime. So I'm setting you a challenge in return. What does constitute good anime? What do you think have been masterpieces? Or, at least exceptional? Then, I may be able to judge where you are coming from.

Melanchthon wrote:
...Last year there were three quality shows, Madoka, Steins;Gate, PenguinDrum...


To your Steins;Gate I'd add Bunny Drop and A Letter to Momo, with some reservations Hanasaku Iroha, and with further reservations Fate / Zero. That, to my mind, makes it a good year. I'm holding off on 2012 in order to watch series over a short time period (I've realised I don't like watching one episode a week) so I can't yet judge this year.


I also have no "my anime" why? because listing even a fraction of the three tera-bites of anime I have on file or the countless series I've watched but don't have on hand would become a full time job.


as for steins gate found it an annoying series the running jokes were so forced as to be pitiful the characters were nearly as empty as eden of the east's. fate zero was a remake of a popular series which falls under the OP's "safe for production" criteria.
usagi drop was an excellent series not only for the style of animation used but the story had depth however simplistic a young childs life would be deemed.

my personal criteria is pretty simple I want to be entertained with a series. doesn't mater what setting. or character type or type like action drama comedy...etc.. if they follow or copy "the format" so to speak but the writing is well done to my tastes I wont care that its a format. its the series who not only follow the rubber stamp method and have weak writing that I toss to the side.

in the last few years the writers seem to be stuck trying to add psychological depth to everything they touch (which in most cases turns the series to garbage) its pathetic when characters in grade school are pondering psychology's they wouldn't even know about before university but continuity aside only a few writers are any good at that aspect of writing most simply end up having to use cheap shortcuts out of the holes they dig in the story lines.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:08 am Reply with quote
Quote:
as for steins gate found it an annoying series the running jokes were so forced as to be pitiful the characters were nearly as empty as eden of the east's. fate zero was a remake of a popular series which falls under the OP's "safe for production" criteria.


Uhhhhh...no, it wasn't. Fate/Zero is a canon prequel to Fate/Stay Night, not a remake.
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