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Hey, Answerman! - Negative Nellies


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Melanchthon



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 550
Location: Northwest from Here
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:44 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
On the topic about negative reviews and such, I think a lot of people go about reviews in the wrong way. They seem to think everything needs to be a really intellectual thing or an amazing story... but the fact is, they don't. I've always believed that any medium should be reviewed based on the goal of the product. For example, a comedy should be graded based on how funny it is. Or a fanservice show should be graded on the quality of its fanservice. Or an action show should be graded on the quality of its action. They shouldn't all just be marked down because they lack an "Emotional Story" or "Believeable characters", since that was never their goal in the first place.


Okay, thought experiment time. Lets say you have two students, both enrolled in Underwater Basketweaving 101. The objective, or goal, of the students is to pass the class. One student studies, practices, and ends up weaving some really nice baskets, while the second goofs off, skips class, and hurriedly rushes together a conclusion at the very end. The first student passes with a 4.0, and the second passes with a 1.5. They both met their goals. Are both students the same? Now, let's postulate a third student, who takes a class in Byzantine History and passes with a 3.5. Is the kid with the underwater basketweaving better than the kid with the ancient history grade? The former does have the higher grade point, but the latter actually did something.

In terms of anime, if the goal of one show is to make a generic harem comedy with paper thin characters that will sell a pre-estimated number of volumes, and the goal of another is to make an interesting and engaging show with, and I quote, "Emotional Story" or "Believeable[sic] characters", and the former succeeds and the latter falls short, is the former better than the latter?

Now, the purpose of a review, as I see it, is to determine if a show succeeded or failed as a story, to identify where and why the show succeeded or failed as a story, and to make an argument why I believe in this determination. The only thing I hope it does it get the reader to think, critically, about what they are watching and how good it really was. The type or genre is irrelevant. I don't have to like jousei to determine if a jousei anime is good or not. I don't have to like harem comedies to determine if a harem comedy is good or not. And there are good harem comedies, and they are the shows that have things like plot and conflict and real, relatable characters. To say, 'oh, you don't like harem shows, so of course your review is going to be negative' or 'that show isn't for you, so your review is meaningless' is an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy that allows the simple minded to ignore criticisms.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3819
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:51 pm Reply with quote
Melanchthon wrote:
RyanSaotome wrote:
On the topic about negative reviews and such, I think a lot of people go about reviews in the wrong way. They seem to think everything needs to be a really intellectual thing or an amazing story... but the fact is, they don't. I've always believed that any medium should be reviewed based on the goal of the product. For example, a comedy should be graded based on how funny it is. Or a fanservice show should be graded on the quality of its fanservice. Or an action show should be graded on the quality of its action. They shouldn't all just be marked down because they lack an "Emotional Story" or "Believeable characters", since that was never their goal in the first place.


Okay, thought experiment time. Lets say you have two students, both enrolled in Underwater Basketweaving 101. The objective, or goal, of the students is to pass the class. One student studies, practices, and ends up weaving some really nice baskets, while the second goofs off, skips class, and hurriedly rushes together a conclusion at the very end. The first student passes with a 4.0, and the second passes with a 1.5. They both met their goals. Are both students the same? Now, let's postulate a third student, who takes a class in Byzantine History and passes with a 3.5. Is the kid with the underwater basketweaving better than the kid with the ancient history grade? The former does have the higher grade point, but the latter actually did something.

In terms of anime, if the goal of one show is to make a generic harem comedy with paper thin characters that will sell a pre-estimated number of volumes, and the goal of another is to make an interesting and engaging show with, and I quote, "Emotional Story" or "Believeable[sic] characters", and the former succeeds and the latter falls short, is the former better than the latter?

Now, the purpose of a review, as I see it, is to determine if a show succeeded or failed as a story, to identify where and why the show succeeded or failed as a story, and to make an argument why I believe in this determination. The only thing I hope it does it get the reader to think, critically, about what they are watching and how good it really was. The type or genre is irrelevant. I don't have to like jousei to determine if a jousei anime is good or not. I don't have to like harem comedies to determine if a harem comedy is good or not. And there are good harem comedies, and they are the shows that have things like plot and conflict and real, relatable characters. To say, 'oh, you don't like harem shows, so of course your review is going to be negative' or 'that show isn't for you, so your review is meaningless' is an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy that allows the simple minded to ignore criticisms.


You pretty much summed it up so quoted for truth. This is why I love the franchise "to love ru" but hate lesser shows like "shuffle or girls bravo".
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:01 pm Reply with quote
danilo07 wrote:
@Fencedude5609 Can you tell me what NakaImo is trying to be?Like what emotions it wants to provoke etc...


I told you what it was trying to be, a trashy fanservice comedy.
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RAmmsoldat



Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 1261
Location: North wales coast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:02 pm Reply with quote
i'll read reviews of stuff to get some info on some content from time to time but I dont really take the opinion of the reviewer. when it comes to any entertainment i'll see if it sounds like something id enjoy or might be interesting and if im convinced by the premise i'll give it a go.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3819
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:05 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
danilo07 wrote:
@Fencedude5609 Can you tell me what NakaImo is trying to be?Like what emotions it wants to provoke etc...


I told you what it was trying to be, a trashy fanservice comedy.


Let me correct you on this, it's a typical generic harem 2412312 where the guy might end up boinking his own sister. Even if he ends up choosing his sister there will be the cop-out "not blood related" so who cares card so they can f*** as much as they want to.
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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: USA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:10 pm Reply with quote
Melanchthon wrote:
[
In terms of anime, if the goal of one show is to make a generic harem comedy with paper thin characters that will sell a pre-estimated number of volumes, and the goal of another is to make an interesting and engaging show with, and I quote, "Emotional Story" or "Believeable[sic] characters", and the former succeeds and the latter falls short, is the former better than the latter?

Now, the purpose of a review, as I see it, is to determine if a show succeeded or failed as a story, to identify where and why the show succeeded or failed as a story, and to make an argument why I believe in this determination. The only thing I hope it does it get the reader to think, critically, about what they are watching and how good it really was. The type or genre is irrelevant. I don't have to like jousei to determine if a jousei anime is good or not. I don't have to like harem comedies to determine if a harem comedy is good or not. And there are good harem comedies, and they are the shows that have things like plot and conflict and real, relatable characters. To say, 'oh, you don't like harem shows, so of course your review is going to be negative' or 'that show isn't for you, so your review is meaningless' is an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy that allows the simple minded to ignore criticisms.


But it is subjective to what one determines is a good story or not? Two people can watch the same show and can have different opinions on the story. One person could say the story is good and the other is trash.

Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:
danilo07 wrote:
@Fencedude5609 Can you tell me what NakaImo is trying to be?Like what emotions it wants to provoke etc...


I told you what it was trying to be, a trashy fanservice comedy.


Let me correct you on this, it's a typical generic harem 2412312 where the guy might end up boinking his own sister. Even if he ends up choosing his sister there will be the cop-out "not blood related" so who cares card so they can f*** as much as they want to.


I fail to see how the "not blood related" is a cop-out ending. It is legit to me.
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danilo07



Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1580
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:23 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
danilo07 wrote:
@Fencedude5609 Can you tell me what NakaImo is trying to be?Like what emotions it wants to provoke etc...


I told you what it was trying to be, a trashy fanservice comedy.

And how hard is it to create a trashy fanservice comedy?
Does it require a good character designs, a good characterization,witty dialogue,good directing skills,or perhaps a good animation?
No it doesn't need any of those things,all that it needs to have are boobs who fall of at random moments and anyone can do that ,no talent is required at all.
So if you say that Nakaimo is great success at being trashy fanservice comedy then maybe the problem is that trashy fanservice comedy shows are then completely worthless.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:25 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
A lot of this is just "critics don't tend to like what I like" rather than any meaningful criticism of the review process.

"Just like it for what it is!" "Don't pay attention to anything other than what the show is doing right" "You should want to like everything" "it's fun to hate stuff so just hate everything and people will pay attention to you". These are all statements that to me totally disqualify anyone from even commenting on how they think reviews 'should' be done. If your opinion on the matter can be boiled down to "these reviews don't agree with my opinion, therefore they're wrong", then you aren't really worth listening to on the issue.


Wasn't there a huge stink in a thread awhile back about your Madoka preview/review discrepancies? From the way I read the preview, it seemed like you went into it not really looking to like it, making sarcastic comments and brushing it off with dismissive comments. Kind of makes sense someone wouldn't like it if they went into it with that mindset. But once you sat down and gave it a fair go for the full review, you did seem to love it. A different outlook can make all the difference I find. Heck, even just having a bad day can change if you like an episode of a show or not.

asimpson2006 wrote:
But it is subjective to what one determines is a good story or not? Two people can watch the same show and can have different opinions on the story. One person could say the story is good and the other is trash.


Most things are subjective Things like 'writing' and 'character development' aren't numerically gauged like a GPA is (without getting into the whole 'school grades don't reflect actual intelligence' argument) so you can't point to a bar meter and say "this is where this show's writing rates". If it was objective, everyone would like the same stuff. Clearly it's not the case though, as you can have many people saying a show like Outlaw Star is amazing and many others who say it sucks. From most of what I've seen, the most hated 'bad' shows tends to be the most popular ones with the most fans, like long-running shounen or fanservice comedies.


Last edited by TitanXL on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BonnKansan



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 116
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:28 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
danilo07 wrote:
@Fencedude5609 Can you tell me what NakaImo is trying to be?Like what emotions it wants to provoke etc...


I told you what it was trying to be, a trashy fanservice comedy.


Okay, so what about it makes it the funniest show of the season for you? You call it 'objectively terrible', but it must be doing something well to be that funny. There's a difference between 'flirting with morally reprehensible' and 'objectively terrible'. Is the great comedy from, say, the flustered reaction of the main character? The anticipation of how they'll top themselves in what the girls do to seduce him? Inserting fanservice in unexpected situations? I haven't seen it myself, so I'm just guessing.

Giving some details about what you like about a show might encourage others to give it a try when they'd written it off; at least it'd be more likely to do so than saying the equivalent of 'It's a Jeep thing: you wouldn't understand.'
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:30 pm Reply with quote
I appreciate reviewers who let their audience know about the kinds of works they like/dislike upfront, and how it might give them a bias in their reviews. Most everybody has preferences when it comes to entertainment, and it's always good to know when a person reviews something they're usually not interested in. I think the more you know about a reviewer's preferences, the easier it is to get the most out of their reviews relative to your own tastes. And I definitely appreciate reviewers who own the rating they give to a work --- i.e. they don't say "this is a purely objective 4/5 stars", they say "this is a subjective 4/5 stars based on my tastes and personal experience."

I also appreciate reviewers that are sensitive to the creators of a work, and the potential divergent tastes of their reader/viewership. It's easier to stomach when a reviewer says that he/she "strongly disliked" a work that I personally like, than for him/her to say it was "an utter piece of crap". Plus it's more respectful and constructive to the artists who put effort into creating the work.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:35 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:


Wasn't there a huge stink in a thread awhile back about your Madoka preview/review discrepancies? From the way I read the preview, it seemed like you went into it not really looking to like it, making sarcastic comments and brushing it off with dismissive comments. Kind of makes sense someone wouldn't like it if they went into it with that mindset. But once you sat down and gave it a fair go for the full review, you did seem to love it. A different outlook can make all the difference I find. Heck, even just having a bad day can change if you like an episode of a show or not.


To me, this reveals more about your biases and an unwillingness to accept the preview guide format than it says anything about me.

The first episode, when viewed alone and without any hindsight or future knowledge of what's going to happen, in my opinion it isn't the most remarkable thing in the world and is only really visually inventive. The story could've easily just been another magical girl show with a slight visual twist. Turns out it wasn't, but I didn't know that until I watched the entire show later on.

The preview guides are very specifically not reviews. They're first impressions based on the first episode of something. More of a gut reaction, an "is this worth checking out or not right now at the top of the season" thing. This is well-known and most people seem to accept it. But you're saying that somehow, because I didn't see the quality in the show right away, that I went into it with some bias or pre-hate or something.

Is it really that difficult to understand that during the preview, I didn't really see what was so special about it beyond the aesthetic, and then when I watched the entire show my opinion changed? Why is that bad or wrong or proof of my own pre-hatred or something? I feel like you guys are willfully obtuse and pretend to be confused by this stuff in order to invalidate opinions that aren't your own. I don't think there's anything difficult to understand about what happened here at all.

Kikaioh wrote:
And I definitely appreciate reviewers who own the rating they give to a work --- i.e. they don't say "this is a purely objective 4/5 stars", they say "this is a subjective 4/5 stars based on my tastes and personal experience."


Look, this is inherent in the entire IDEA of a review. The existence of a byline basically insists that 'this is the subjective opinion of this person who wrote it'. I have never read a review where I honestly thought the person was trying to insist that 'my opinion is the OBJECTIVE TRUTH'. Never. It's implied by the format itself that that is not the case.

Once again I think this all boils down to "how can we invalidate this person's opinion" and not actual valid criticism of the way reviews are written really anywhere.


Last edited by Zac on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3819
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:36 pm Reply with quote
asimpson2006 wrote:
Melanchthon wrote:
[
In terms of anime, if the goal of one show is to make a generic harem comedy with paper thin characters that will sell a pre-estimated number of volumes, and the goal of another is to make an interesting and engaging show with, and I quote, "Emotional Story" or "Believeable[sic] characters", and the former succeeds and the latter falls short, is the former better than the latter?

Now, the purpose of a review, as I see it, is to determine if a show succeeded or failed as a story, to identify where and why the show succeeded or failed as a story, and to make an argument why I believe in this determination. The only thing I hope it does it get the reader to think, critically, about what they are watching and how good it really was. The type or genre is irrelevant. I don't have to like jousei to determine if a jousei anime is good or not. I don't have to like harem comedies to determine if a harem comedy is good or not. And there are good harem comedies, and they are the shows that have things like plot and conflict and real, relatable characters. To say, 'oh, you don't like harem shows, so of course your review is going to be negative' or 'that show isn't for you, so your review is meaningless' is an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy that allows the simple minded to ignore criticisms.


But it is subjective to what one determines is a good story or not? Two people can watch the same show and can have different opinions on the story. One person could say the story is good and the other is trash.

Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:
danilo07 wrote:
@Fencedude5609 Can you tell me what NakaImo is trying to be?Like what emotions it wants to provoke etc...


I told you what it was trying to be, a trashy fanservice comedy.


Let me correct you on this, it's a typical generic harem 2412312 where the guy might end up boinking his own sister. Even if he ends up choosing his sister there will be the cop-out "not blood related" so who cares card so they can f*** as much as they want to.


I fail to see how the "not blood related" is a cop-out ending. It is legit to me.


hmmm... do you really want to know why it's a cop-out?? The writers/animators do not have the courage/balls, to talk about something that is taboo so they play it safe. So basically I'm saying no matter what premises they set up it always falls flat.

Say a guy finds his long lost sister and falls in love with her the ending is predictable from the start because this is what they do. Also I refuse to talk about this anymore about this because people do not like this subject and it makes Zac sick.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 4210
Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
The first episode, when viewed alone and without any hindsight or future knowledge of what's going to happen, in my opinion isn't the most remarkable thing in the world and is only really visually inventive. The story could've easily just been another magical girl show with a slight visual twist. Turns out it wasn't, but I didn't know that until I watched the entire show later on.


The big thing with Madoka is that to me, at least, it was very obvious it was going to go that route. Gen Urobuchi was already well known for his dark and twisted stories at that point, with Fate/Zero and Saya no Uta as his headliners. He might not of been as popular as he is now, but anyone who knew he was working on it expected it to go down that kinda route... its actually the reason I was most excited about it, even more so than it was a Shaft magical girl show.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1527
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:58 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
The big thing with Madoka is that to me, at least, it was very obvious it was going to go that route. Gen Urobuchi was already well known for his dark and twisted stories at that point, with Fate/Zero and Saya no Uta as his headliners.


And you also knew him personally so you were 100% sure that he won't sell out for a nice paycheck or simply do something differently for a change. In any case I doubt Zac knew about Urobuchi nor was he required to know about him.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:02 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
And you also knew him personally so you were 100% sure that he won't sell out for a nice paycheck or simply do something differently for a change. In any case I doubt Zac knew about Urobuchi nor was he required to know about him.


Yeah, no.

If you are a reviewer you are expected to know this stuff.

Read any major movie review, for example.
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