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REVIEW: Death Note DVD


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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8458
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:00 pm Reply with quote
Laws and justice systems are important, not just because they keep people from harming themselves or others, but because they're systems decided by the people (at least, where those certain liberties apply). When you remove humanity from the process, it becomes inhumane, no matter how many people it saves.

Frightening the world into behaving itself is not justice. You can scare people all you want, and hell, it might work, but that's not justice, it's fascism, and intellectually deproable.

Not to mention, it's very easy to sit at a desk and write names in a notebook. Light never had to take a life with his bare hands. He never had to stab, shoot, drown, push, strangle, or anything. Of course he felt nothing for the so-called scum of the world, because he never had to approach them as one human to another, or even human to monster, if he preferred. He sat in his ivory tower writing names in a notebook, like a coward.

A system run by human beings is flawed, true, and often cruel. But it recognizes the humanity in all of us, even those who have sinned, have committed crimes, and by doing so offers redemption of a kind.

Light was just an arrogant bastard from the start. Even Ryuk recognized this.


Last edited by penguintruth on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 4410
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:09 pm Reply with quote
I have to say that I really appreciate the comparison of Light and Lelouch at the end there. After seeing both shows it is easy enough to compare the two, but their motivations end up being very different. Good call on that. Smile
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Cetali wrote:
pachy_boy wrote:
I’ve heard comments that Light may not be ‘good’ but he isn’t ‘evil’ either, that he is a complicated shade-of-gray character, so much so that you don’t know who you were supposed to root for in the main cat-and-mouse story, Light or L.


If Light hadn't been physically attractive, people would never have rooted and rationalized for him the way they do ...

Good, bad, he's the one with the fangirls.


Nah, L's more popular, actually. Wink

...though not as much as slash between the two of them. Shocked
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Prodigiosus



Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:44 pm Reply with quote
I'm very much on the L side in the favorite debate. Switched sides once I realized Light was out of his freakin mind!

I can't imagine anyone rooting for Light, a guy who spoiler[was responsible for, and couldn't have cared less about, the death of his father] Someone that emotionless just can't be on the side of good.

And at the end he was much more about control than any sort of justice. Cause honestly, what would he have done with himself if everyone started being good? Go back to being an average college student? Of course not, he'd just find another excuse to execute people at will.

It stopped being about justice the moment he spoiler[killed the L impersonator when L first came into the picture]
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pajmo9



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 630
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:45 pm Reply with quote
spoiler[Light strayed from his ideals as soon as he thought he killed L in the 2nd episode of the series in my opinion.] But I think Lights flaws are what made him such an interesting character to me even though I never wanted him to win.

L is justice!


Last edited by pajmo9 on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:49 pm Reply with quote
I find it most odd that people would assert that killing criminals was not making the world a better place. Crime rates were plummeting, the prisons and courts were becoming less crowded, and his efforts in the first week alone saved the world an estimated USD25,327,599.13 per annum in upkeep costs for the prisoners who were killed. Considering that many of the criminals were on death row, and therefore had expensive and lengthy cases clogging up the appeal courts, I'd say that Light saved various societies a large wad of cash.

Now, as to those who object to Light killing criminals because some of those criminals may have been innocent. Wait, those people are okay that court systems worldwide sentence innocent people to death or imprisonment? Instead of going after Light, who obviously trusts the validity of the criminal justice system, they should be demanding real changes to the courts so innocent people aren't found guilty at all. I mean, it isn't Light's fault that the courts convict the innocent sometimes, so don't be angry at him.

daxomni, don't bring your politics here, save it for the community forum. Besides, Light killed Dubya, so it all evens out, right?

Hellkorn, if you aren't going to use a proper analogy, then there is no point talking to you.

For the record, a proper analogy would be a vigilante who's being hunted down by corrupt and incompetent police who are going to kill him despite all the good he's done. So, in order to continue with being such a benefit to society he is forced to act in self-defence and kill those who would unjustifiably hunt him down.

penguintruth wrote:
Not to mention, it's very easy to sit at a desk and write names in a notebook. Light never had to take a life with his bare hands. He never had to stab, shoot, drown, push, strangle, or anything. Of course he felt nothing for the so-called scum of the world, because he never had to approach them as one human to another, or even human to monster, if he preferred. He sat in his ivory tower writing names in a notebook, like a coward.


Well, Light killed with his bare hands and a pen. So there. But really, if he had had all the powers of Superman, and he went and ripped people in half and drowned them in a river, then that would have made him better? I may be (apparently) insane, but at least I know an atrocious argument when I see one.

doctordoom85 wrote:
And the police/detectives couldn't just ignore Kira, what sane person would leave the fate of the entire world in the hands of one person whose mental stability is highly questionable?


Well, billions of people put their faith in God, and if you read the Old Testament he has to be about the most cruel and "unstable" Lord and Master conceivable. Anyway, at the time the police started to try and find out who Kira was, Light was only killing criminals. That behaviour hardly strikes me as pointing to "highly questionable mental stability".

So why did they go after him? Because they couldn't stand someone who was as powerful as Kira; they didn't care about the criminals at all. It was their pursuit of Kira that turned Light from a benevolent person who dispensed righteous justice to an evil dictator who deserved to die by the series' end.

This has been a most interesting discussion. It really shows just how detached from reality some people are. And no, I don't mean myself, of course.
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pajmo9



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 630
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:01 pm Reply with quote
Prodigiosus wrote:
It stopped being about justice the moment he spoiler[killed the L impersonator when L first came into the picture]


Laughing Sorry Prodigiosus. I didn't mean to copy you in my previous post. When I went to write it yours wasn't there. But I totally agree.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:15 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I find it most odd that people would assert that killing criminals was not making the world a better place. Crime rates were plummeting, the prisons and courts were becoming less crowded, and his efforts in the first week alone saved the world an estimated USD25,327,599.13 per annum in upkeep costs for the prisoners who were killed. Considering that many of the criminals were on death row, and therefore had expensive and lengthy cases clogging up the appeal courts, I'd say that Light saved various societies a large wad of cash.


I'm so glad that we weigh lives in terms of money! Maybe we can buy people, too!

Quote:
Now, as to those who object to Light killing criminals because some of those criminals may have been innocent. Wait, those people are okay that court systems worldwide sentence innocent people to death or imprisonment? Instead of going after Light, who obviously trusts the validity of the criminal justice system, they should be demanding real changes to the courts so innocent people aren't found guilty at all. I mean, it isn't Light's fault that the courts convict the innocent sometimes, so don't be angry at him.


Right, because clearly if you disapprove of someone killing possible innocents in jail, you also implictly approve of any system that imprisons innocents as well! Your insight into our ethics is so astounding!

Quote:
For the record, a proper analogy would be a vigilante who's being hunted down by corrupt and incompetent police who are going to kill him despite all the good he's done. So, in order to continue with being such a benefit to society he is forced to act in self-defence and kill those who would unjustifiably hunt him down.


Right! Those "corrupt" cops like Matsuda and LIght's father trying to do their jobs by stopping someone taking the law into his own hands totally had what was coming to them! Light was a victim of evil government persecution!

Quote:
Well, billions of people put their faith in God, and if you read the Old Testament he has to be about the most cruel and "unstable" Lord and Master conceivable. Anyway, at the time the police started to try and find out who Kira was, Light was only killing criminals. That behaviour hardly strikes me as pointing to "highly questionable mental stability".


Right! It's so much better to have a God who tries to kill people he'd been working closely with for years and who trusted him and treated him as a friend! Or who voluntarily gives his super powers to corrupt business men to kill people for money!

Quote:
So why did they go after him? Because they couldn't stand someone who was as powerful as Kira; they didn't care about the criminals at all. It was their pursuit of Kira that turned Light from a benevolent person who dispensed righteous justice to an evil dictator who deserved to die by the series' end.


Absolutely! It was totally jealousy and had nothing to do with keeping the law and order in society instead of letting justice be meted out by any teenager who happens to pick up a supernatural notebook!

Quote:
This has been a most interesting discussion. It really shows just how detached from reality some people are. And no, I don't mean myself, of course.


Yes. Your reasoning is lucid, moral, and consistent. You deserve a chair at a university!

(I'm starting to get the negative side of the series Kliminger saw in it....)
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:28 pm Reply with quote
This will be futile, but whatever.

dtm42 wrote:
I find it most odd that people would assert that killing criminals was not making the world a better place. Crime rates were plummeting, the prisons and courts were becoming less crowded, and his efforts in the first week alone saved the world an estimated USD25,327,599.13 per annum in upkeep costs for the prisoners who were killed.

Reported crimes, tyranny, et cetera.

If you believe that the solution to keep prisons less crowded is to kill the prisoners in there -- and that there aren't deeper issues for why that is, political and cultural ones that strike at an injustice in equality far more ignored and should be the focus of reform -- then you're an idiot. (You may very well take this ad hominem and use it to disregard this point, and potentially others. I wouldn't be surprised.) And you also conveniently ignore that most of these aren't death row inmates if he's actually clearing the prisons out?

Quote:
Now, as to those who object to Light killing criminals because some of those criminals may have been innocent. Wait, those people are okay that court systems worldwide sentence innocent people to death or imprisonment? Instead of going after Light, who obviously trusts the validity of the criminal justice system, they should be demanding real changes to the courts so innocent people aren't found guilty at all. I mean, it isn't Light's fault that the courts convict the innocent sometimes, so don't be angry at him.

Amazing strawman.

I'm against the death penalty for a variety of reasons, foremost because of innocent people being sentenced. Innocents will always be convincted because we cannot have a 100% solid system which is always reliable. Changes should be made, and technology to further guarantee innocence or guilt should be pushed. With you adoration of Light, you want numerous innocents killed, and somehow Light and your method of thinking to be absolved of this blame because of your warped reasoning.

Quote:
Hellkorn, if you aren't going to use a proper analogy, then there is no point talking to you.

For the record, a proper analogy would be a vigilante who's being hunted down by corrupt and incompetent police who are going to kill him despite all the good he's done. So, in order to continue with being such a benefit to society he is forced to act in self-defence and kill those who would unjustifiably hunt him down.

No, it's completely apt. You're essentially saying that it's not Light's fault for killing them when they're doing their job.

You're making an absurd assumption here. It's a logical leap from Light's action to them be inherently justified, thus striking back against this supposedly corrupt police force. Light's not corrupt, apparently. He's bringing benefit to society by acting out his teenage fantasy that only allows black-and-white "solutions" to bring down crime through fear, coercion and (in)direct manipulation to kill ANYONE who holds opposing viewpoints to them.

If you don't see the problem there, you're hopeless.

Quote:
Well, Light killed with his bare hands and a pen. So there. But really, if he had had all the powers of Superman, and he went and ripped people in half and drowned them in a river, then that would have made him better? I may be (apparently) insane, but at least I know an atrocious argument when I see one.

Uh, no. penguintruth's point is that Light is a coward because he perceives them as simple monsters and statistics. Like Light, you demonize them and jump to naive conclusions about them, pretending as though it's for the better when the process is just as arbitrary. (How to measure the weight of someone who has been falsely accused of killing two people, versus a drug dealer who has indirectly ruined multiple families?)

Quote:
Well, billions of people put their faith in God, and if you read the Old Testament he has to be about the most cruel and "unstable" Lord and Master conceivable.

See Epicurious.

Quote:
So why did they go after him? Because they couldn't stand someone who was as powerful as Kira; they didn't care about the criminals at all.

Pretty sure it's you and Light who don't care about criminals.

Quote:
It was their pursuit of Kira that turned Light from a benevolent person who dispensed righteous justice to an evil dictator who deserved to die by the series' end.

Great. So Light is absolved of all responsibility of killing innocents.

He was going to be an evil dictator from the onset. He would have freakish, sadistic cult followers and would kill innocents, not to mention weigh an arbitrary scale of who should be killed on what grounds.

Quote:
This has been a most interesting discussion. It really shows just how detached from reality some people are. And no, I don't mean myself, of course.

Rolling Eyes

vashfanatic wrote:
(I'm starting to get the negative side of the series Kliminger saw in it....)

Death Note explicitly condemns this self-righteous thinking that Light has. Of the only two times that questions of morality are ever addressed in the series -- the first episode and the last -- we have Near utterly denouncing Light's method. Hell, even the creators have explicitly stated that neither Light nor L are moral, and that if there is to be any sort of model character in the series, it would be Chief Yagami.

Still, it attracts the type of mindset that is sadly not eroding away quickly enough in this world.
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IisamonkeynamedIdaho



Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:00 pm Reply with quote
Ok,I'll give this a shot.I rooted for Light in the beginning,but became torn when Naomi was shown mourning Raye's death.
Eventually,I'm not sure when,I began rooting for L.
After spoiler[L's death,]I wasn't sure who to root for.
Then Mello spoiler[kidnapped Sayu,]and I started to hate him,so I cheered for Near.

All in all,spoiler[I was glad that Near won.
I'd rather that L did,however. Confused ]
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Sentire



Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 981
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:00 pm Reply with quote
I can understand the underlying sentiment to rid the world of its cancer, but the moment that as a human you decide to be the sole judge and jury without any system of checks and balances upon yourself, well then - welcome to the dark side.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:59 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
vashfanatic wrote:
(I'm starting to get the negative side of the series Kliminger saw in it....)

Death Note explicitly condemns this self-righteous thinking that Light has. Of the only two times that questions of morality are ever addressed in the series -- the first episode and the last -- we have Near utterly denouncing Light's method. Hell, even the creators have explicitly stated that neither Light nor L are moral, and that if there is to be any sort of model character in the series, it would be Chief Yagami.

Still, it attracts the type of mindset that is sadly not eroding away quickly enough in this world.


Oh, I absolutely agree that if you actually read Death Note (rather than ignoring the parts you don't like) you'll realize the series condemns Light. I was referring to what you say, the people who adopt Light/Kira as a hero, like this poster here.

I actually had a thought over dinner:
If Light was really doing this for justice and to make the world a better place, instead of to fulfill a God-complex, when spoiler[L was closing in on him and he was about to be imprisoned for the first time,] wouldn't he have spoiler[given the Death Note to someone who could have continued his work ridding the wold of criminals] rather than spoiler[giving it to someone who was clearly corrupt and self-serving]? The only reason he spoiler[chose the guy because he would be easy for L and everyone to catch, leading to the Death Note returning to his hands!] Yeah, maybe this was about justice at first, but eventually it became about him personally playing God.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:18 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I find it most odd that people would assert that killing criminals was not making the world a better place. Crime rates were plummeting, the prisons and courts were becoming less crowded, and his efforts in the first week alone saved the world an estimated USD25,327,599.13 per annum in upkeep costs for the prisoners who were killed. Considering that many of the criminals were on death row, and therefore had expensive and lengthy cases clogging up the appeal courts, I'd say that Light saved various societies a large wad of cash.


Now you basically infer that killing the criminals would be making the world a better place right? What about those who are in jail for stealing food to feed their families? What about those in jail for assault because they beat the shit out of the guy who raped their family member? What about plenty of other examples of people in essence almost doing what Light is doing but are held as criminals by society. You say how basically killing criminals would make the world a better place...are these "criminals" part of that plan too? Plus despite being a trite question what makes light any different? What makes him any different from a mass murderer? He's still killing people en mass based on his personal code. You think any other mass murderer or serial killer is different? How is Light any different from them when he is doing the exact same thing?

dtm42 wrote:
Now, as to those who object to Light killing criminals because some of those criminals may have been innocent. Wait, those people are okay that court systems worldwide sentence innocent people to death or imprisonment? Instead of going after Light, who obviously trusts the validity of the criminal justice system, they should be demanding real changes to the courts so innocent people aren't found guilty at all. I mean, it isn't Light's fault that the courts convict the innocent sometimes, so don't be angry at him.

So you're saying tough shit basically if innocents got killed? Nice attitude. I am a criminal justice major and I know flat out the system is flawed. That's why there are appeals and new forms of evidence collection and double checks to help make up for mistakes when they happen. But like with anything (including Light's oh so perfect judgments) it's not perfect. You're basically saying tough shit to any innocent person who was convicted and thus killed by Light. It may not be Light's fault an innocent was convicted but it's his fault for killing an innocent if he did. Just because the system made a mistake does not dissolve him from any he makes himself. Or are you content to just condone such actions as collateral damage?

The simplest point to make is NO ONE should have the power Light had. As the saying goes; powers corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. No matter how good his intentions started off as he became nothing more then a sociopath in the end and that's all his doing. No one else's as you would infer. The fact this debate is going on here is creepy enough. I thought porcupine was gone...
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:37 pm Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:
The simplest point to make is NO ONE should have the power Light had. As the saying goes; powers corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. No matter how good his intentions started off as he became nothing more then a sociopath in the end and that's all his doing. No one else's as you would infer. The fact this debate is going on here is creepy enough. I thought porcupine was gone...


My last post on this I swear:
The writers say basically the same thing as this in Volume 13 (the one full of extras, interviews, etc.) when they say that Light could have been a great detective and a good person (if a bit of a jerk)... but once he laid hands on the Death Note, he was doomed.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:10 am Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:
How is Light any different from them when he is doing the exact same thing?


Simple; Light was killing those who truly deserved it. The worst of the worst. L stated in episode two that Light's first victim - a street slasher who had a classroom full of kids hostage - was minor compared to Kira's later victims. Which suggests that those later criminals really were the scum of the earth. Light wasn't killing innocents (at least not knowingly), which makes a world of difference.

Simo Häyhä, arguably the greatest sniper who ever lived, killed at least 705 (some say 742) Soviets during the Winter War (at an average of nearly eight per day and one per daylight hour for the war's duration). The soldiers he killed were mostly conscripts, poorly fed and equipped and trained, forced to fight under penalty of death. He fought - and killed - according to his beliefs, according to his personal code. He became a hero, a legend. Light was killing people who deserved it far more than some unfortunate conscripts; in a way, Light's hands were cleaner than Simo's. Just because there wasn't a formal declaration of war doesn't mean that Light wasn't waging one.

Psycho 101 wrote:
So you're saying tough shit basically if innocents got killed? Nice attitude.

.../...

Or are you content to just condone such actions as collateral damage?


Let me turn that around back to you. Are you content to let innocent people be murdered by the state and just talk about statistics and "Oh, well at least we double-checked". Because that's what you are doing right this moment.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot complain that Light is killing the innocent along with the guilty without also admitting that you condemn the same system. And you cannot assert that the system is good without also - however begrudgingly - allow Light to use it as the basis for his actions. You are holding up a double-standard, several of them in fact. Don't say the system is bad for Light and that he should not use it, and then turn around and claim that it is good for everyone else to use. Murder is murder, whether Light does it or the court system does.

I thought you were better than that, especially since you are a criminal justice major. Indeed, you should be grateful that Light was following a widely-trusted system at all, rather than just kill anyone who irked him like most people would have.

Hy-po-crite.

Psycho 101 wrote:
The simplest point to make is NO ONE should have the power Light had. As the saying goes; powers corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. No matter how good his intentions started off as he became nothing more then a sociopath in the end and that's all his doing. No one else's as you would infer. The fact this debate is going on here is creepy enough. I thought porcupine was gone...


I have no idea as to what you mean by "porcupine". But moving on, I certainly wouldn't want to live in a world where just anyone was given the Death Note. But I have to say, Light was spot on when he said that he was the best person for the job. His world would have been a much better one than there is currently. Sure, it would have been filled with sycophants, at least until Mikami came along.

But a world with low crime, low corruption rates, small prison populations, money to spend on health and education, where the innocent are happy and the guilty live in fear...? I don't know, it sounds like paradise to me.

Anyway, I have to go. But please, if you do respond, actually think for a change. And don't be a hypocrite, because that's what you were being back there.

Bye.


Last edited by dtm42 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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