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REVIEW: Clannad Sub.DVD Part 2


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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:31 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.


I always hear people crying over how sad Clannad was, and After Story too I guess. I want to know, was it genuine or was it a forced BAAAWW. Then again, this is Key, they just love making up plotlines that are set-up for doom for a character. Was it good or bad writing?
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Bring Out The Branston



Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:39 pm Reply with quote
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aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.


This is utter bollocks.
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Mario1234567



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 614
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:56 pm Reply with quote
''aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.''

Wait till you see Clannad The After Story and lets see if you can say that.......... Damn ADV >_>
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18295
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:12 pm Reply with quote
Bring Out The Branston wrote:
Quote:
aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.


This is utter bollocks.


Perhaps I should explain what I mean here, then, since this is clearly going to be an issue for some.

As much as I actually like these series, this is a problem I've had with all of the Key adaptations. (And I know I'm not the only one.) These series all specifically and deliberately set up situations to draw out emotional reactions rather than just letting them happen naturally within the flow of the story. While this approach is certainly effective at getting an emotional response, it feels a bit cheap.

To put it another way: if I can clearly tell that I'm being manipulated into an emotional reaction while having it then it dampens the experience for me - and this is coming from someone who will typically grade a series up a notch or two if it is able to draw an emotional reaction from me. This series, maybe even moreso than the previous two, gives me that feeling.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:27 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Bring Out The Branston wrote:
Quote:
aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.


This is utter bollocks.


Perhaps I should explain what I mean here, then, since this is clearly going to be an issue for some.

As much as I actually like these series, this is a problem I've had with all of the Key adaptations. (And I know I'm not the only one.) These series all specifically and deliberately set up situations to draw out emotional reactions rather than just letting them happen naturally within the flow of the story. While this approach is certainly effective at getting an emotional response, it feels a bit cheap.

To put it another way: if I can clearly tell that I'm being manipulated into an emotional reaction while having it then it dampens the experience for me - and this is coming from someone who will typically grade a series up a notch or two if it is able to draw an emotional reaction from me. This series, maybe even moreso than the previous two, gives me that feeling.


I don't want to get this off topic, but how is that any different from Cross Game, which all of you gave glowing reviews to? I'd never watched a single episode of anime in my life (mind you, I don't watch many moe-heavy shows) that felt more forced to get to its conclusion and more contrived at its outcome, yet everyone called it an example of "geniuine emotion"! How do you make a distinction between the two? Can you, or does it come down to personal taste?

Granted, the moe shows I have seen bits or all of really pull out the stops on manipulation, but what determines whether something is manipulative?
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DmonHiro





PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:38 pm Reply with quote
Bring Out The Branston wrote:
Quote:
aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.


This is utter bollocks.


I agree. That is grade A BS. "Doomed from the start" my foot.

spoiler[ Fuko was in a coma, and had good chances to make it out. Then she got worse. How is that not realistic? This is usually how it happens in real life, so how did they "not earn" emotion?]
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:44 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Granted, the moe shows I have seen bits or all of really pull out the stops on manipulation, but what determines whether something is manipulative?

I consider something to be manipulative simply if it has been made with the intention of evoking specific emotions in its viewers.
Resultantly the personal criterion I use to judge a show is not a case of questioning the extent to which an attempt to affect a viewer is made, but the extent to which any such attempt actually causes the intended result.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:29 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
vashfanatic wrote:
Granted, the moe shows I have seen bits or all of really pull out the stops on manipulation, but what determines whether something is manipulative?

I consider something to be manipulative simply if it has been made with the intention of evoking specific emotions in its viewers.
Resultantly the personal criterion I use to judge a show is not a case of questioning the extent to which an attempt to affect a viewer is made, but the extent to which any such attempt actually causes the intended result.


Yeah, but don't all forms of media have specific emotions they want to elicit from their material, be it tears, laughter, or fear? I'm playing devil's advocate a little here, but I want to get a feel for where we draw the line on something being "manipulative." Is it one of those "I know it when I see it" things? Is it subjective?
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Sceleris



Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:30 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.

I agree. I do like Clannad and After Story, but they are guy-cry shows. The Japanese are really good at making shows that revel in sadness and pity or are just overly sentimental in a fun way. (Sometimes it seems like every "J-drama" ends with just about everyone crying, happily or not, and expressing their feelings to some heartfelt music.) Maybe it's some sort of catharsis...

However, I don't really think that having a show that says "you're supposed to cry here" is any worse than having a show that says "you're supposed to laugh here", as long as it works.

And also, while most of the drama in Clannad is "cheap", it does have some tearful moments that come from real build-up and empathy with the characters. At least it did to me.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:58 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Yeah, but don't all forms of media have specific emotions they want to elicit from their material, be it tears, laughter, or fear?

Yes. Which is why some may consider my stance to be a little too weak and over-encompassing. (Truth be told, I don't really like using the word in question due to this.)

Quote:
Is it one of those "I know it when I see it" things? Is it subjective?

I am almost always a subjectivist when it comes to these things, as by no means do I expect my use of the term 'manipulative' to be heeded by anyone else. I'd advocate the same for many other critical terms.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:11 pm Reply with quote
Honestly, Clannad was damn boring until the second half of the second season .... once they escape all this high school harem BS. It was way more "harem-y" than Kanon or Air ... especially w/ all the girls bringing him food. I mean, COME ON.

I totally agree that it tried too hard to be sad.

It wasn't legitimately sad until the last few episodes of the second season, but then the ending was ... odd and killed it for me.

I was just so disappointed with Clannad all around. Kanon and Air are much better, IMO.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:17 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
(Truth be told, I don't really like using the word in question due to this.)


I agree. I think a better term might be "artificial" or "derivative," because these would match up better with his evaluation of "the stock personality archetypes for the girls." In other words, it feels structured around evoking the emotion by using well-worn patterns rather than creating original characters... perhaps?

(Which was my problem with the first episode of Cross Game, namely that the characters felt fake and underdeveloped... I've been told the manga is different thanks to different pacing)


Last edited by vashfanatic on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:25 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
Bring Out The Branston wrote:
Quote:
aims for cheap emotional manipulation rather than earning it.


This is utter bollocks.


I agree. That is grade A BS. "Doomed from the start" my foot.

spoiler[ Fuko was in a coma, and had good chances to make it out. Then she got worse. How is that not realistic? This is usually how it happens in real life, so how did they "not earn" emotion?]


Double negative. Fuko -- completely aside from only succeeding in evoking emotions in me equivalent to those derived from hearing nails on a chalk board -- was completely at the mercy of the writers, insofar as her coma was concerned. They could turn it on or off at any time without disturbing continuity elsewhere in the show. That is the definition of manipulative. Yes, such cases may happen in real-life, but that doesn't mean they make for a good plot device.

Also...

Key wrote:
Is it telling when a single episode equals a whole series' worth of relationship development?


YES Very Happy Here's hoping the Kyou arc has a similar effect.
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neocloud9



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:41 pm Reply with quote
I enjoyed Clannad when I watched it through the first time, but it really can't hold a candle to After Story, comparatively. Here's to hoping for a license announcement soon!
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the Rancorous



Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 2248
Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:43 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Zin5ki wrote:
(Truth be told, I don't really like using the word in question due to this.)


I agree. I think a better term might be "artificial" or "derivative," because these would match up better with his evaluation of "the stock personality archetypes for the girls." In other words, it feels structured around evoking the emotion by using well-worn patterns rather than creating original characters... perhaps?

Perhaps... or maybe it could be that the Key series' tricks have gotten old after Air and Kanon?

And yeah, ep 24 was my favorite next to the conclusion of Kotomi's arc. The affectionate relationship between Tomoya and Tomoyo was very nice to watch as opposed to the 'too shy' relationship. Not that I disliked Nagisa (though I liked the other girls more).

Mario1234567 wrote:
Wait till you see Clannad The After Story and lets see if you can say that.......

You talking about the build up to the cop out ending? I can still say things like that after seeing it Razz . But I'll just leave that subject alone. Lets just say I won't be hoping for a license of that disappointment.
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