×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Hey, Answerman! - Chances In Hell


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:06 pm Reply with quote
Bonham wrote:

Okay, but people can be just as dismissive of things that are "artsy" or unconventional, and dismiss them as things that only "critics" enjoy. We can play the "this group is close-minded" game for any given side, and point to generalized instances of elitism, but it doesn't get us anywhere. And I still don't see what specific points of mine you have a problem with.


Sure, so what? Sometimes those shows are great, sometimes they're shit.

Quote:

So are debating and analyzing entertainment pointless, and those that enjoy doing so fooling themselves? Why are you on the forum, then?


No, talk about elitism and elitists is stupid and pointless. I'm more than willing to actually discuss shows. But thats not the question at hand, and I think the question at hand is idiotic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:08 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Someone else beat me to it and said it better than I could, but this isn't the first time you've said something like this. If this is your attitude, why do you bother engaging people at all on the subject? Talking about relative quality is apparently totally pointless and stupid and nobody should waste their time with it, so why do you do it?


No, I don't think that. I discuss actual shows all the time (though admittedly not here), but thats never the discussion you seem to want to have.

And its not the question raised by answerman here, either. And I don't think that his question is useful for anything other than trolling your readership (which is, of course, the point)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bonham



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 419
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:22 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Sure, so what? Sometimes those shows are great, sometimes they're shit.

Okay, agreed, but what does this derailment have to do with what I said?

Quote:
No, talk about elitism and elitists is stupid and pointless. I'm more than willing to actually discuss shows. But thats not the question at hand, and I think the question at hand is idiotic.

I'm not sure how it's pointless when people obviously differ in terms of how "elitism" is branded. For some it's just being an asshole when dismissing and/or praising certain shows, and here people seem to think elitism goes along with having "high standards" -- some even suggests that it's not a matter of standards, but dislike of genre! (What RyanSaotome says is amusing, but inconsiderate of personal nuances. I largely do not care for fanservice anime and have little to no interest in watching them, but I have enjoyed nonsense like Golden Boy or the hot springs episode in something like Fumoffu. I'm not sure where I fit in his square peg of categorization.)

Hell, the question of there being low-brow, high-brow or no-brow at all is interesting, considering those distinctions have been blurred over time. (The marriage between low-brow and high-brow entertainment is one of the hallmarks of post-modernism, after all.) Do people always make a distinction between them, as well as those that may have "low-standards" and "high-standards," because they're merely elitist not-so-nice-people, or is there a valid argument for the division? If so, how do we separate them?

There's obviously a lot to consider from this. Relationships of audience to entertainment is something that has always been around in cultural analysis. Outright dismissals isn't a productive mode of discussion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Hypeathon



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 1176
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:27 pm Reply with quote
Ya know regarding the whole, "boiling down to genres and preferences" thing, whether people want to believe it or not, I personally care more for whether the show tells a simple, clear story than what genre it is or what subject matter is in the show. I honestly want to know what the person/people behind the story of a show were trying to say (if they're trying to say anything) based on what the main characters want, why they want what they want, what challenge they go through to get what they want and they learn in the process. There probably was a point where it didn't take much for me to be entertained and I had more of a bias for what I wanted to watch. But now times changed, I've watched various s*** throughout my life so far (bunch of which I've grown tired of), I've lately ended up learning more about what actually makes good stories, and now I look for something with a concrete point in its story. My expectations in what want to watch have been raised now whether again, people want to believe that or not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2530
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:38 pm Reply with quote
I'm going to ignore the present conversation going on, and just say my thoughts on what Brian said:
Quote:
All of this, though, boils down to the premise that what we all mean by "turn off my brain and have fun" really means... "I just want to watch/read something I already know I like."


I'm sorry, Brian, but I have to vehemently disagree with you on this. You are literally the first person I have seen to ever describe the idea of "turning off your brain" as meaning to limit yourself to watching only what you like. I have always thought of, and generally seen, the term described as something that is enjoyable & watchable when not viewed in a overtly-critical fashion, i.e. thinking about it too much will make you like it less. For example, I love the 90s Street Fighter movie that has Jean Claude Van-Damme & Raul Julia. When viewed critically the movie is a horrible mess, but when viewed without that critical mindframe it's so amazingly cheestastic that it's utterly enjoyable. Hell, I really enjoy Godzilla movies, and those generally don't stand up well when viewed from a highly critical viewpoint. But are they fun & enjoyable to watch? Hell yes.

And, really, your examples of what you call "turn off your brain" anime really just shows where your definition falls apart, since I have never seen Tatami Galaxy nor Captain Harlock called titles that require one to "turn off your brain". Hell, I haven't seen Tatami Galaxy, but from what I've heard it's a show that actually requires one's brain to be "turned on" to fully understand & appreciate. If you want a great anime example of "turn off your brain" anime, then watch Crystal Triangle. From a critical standpoint the movie is so nonsensical & overly-ambitious that it fails in nearly all ways as a story, but at the same time it's that same over-ambition & nonsensical fashion that makes the movie so mind-blowingly amazing to watch. It's the perfect anime to "turn off your brain" to, because thinking about what's going on will only confuse you & possibly make your head hurt. I saw it a couple of weeks ago & when the end credits appeared I honestly clapped at it, because it failed in such a fashion that I had to appreciate it.

Personally, I find nothing wrong with "turn off your brain" entertainment, simply because it ends up being a different experience than entertainment that requires one to really think about what he/she watching. I loved watching the live-action GTO J-Drama (the original) because it was so character-driven & story focused in a way that really made me have to pay attention & think, but at the same time I loved watching the Team Astro J-Drama on DramaFever.com because of how awesomely insane the show was. Personally, I find both to be equally amazing & worth watching, but for different reasons.

I guess that ties into me not really caring about having "high standards", simply because I always got the feeling that it required one to be too overtly critical or picky about certain stuff. For example, from what I have seen the term "high standards" is generally applied to those who tend to only watch "high-brow"/intellectucal/artistic titles and the like; you've never seen someone who watches something like Dredd 3D be called someone with "high standards", because there seems to be an acceptance that those with "high standards" shouldn't be able to enjoy Dredd 3D because it won't be "high-brow"/intellectucal/artistic enough for them to enjoy.

Now I could be reading into that stuff completely wrong, but even when I appeared on episode 96 of ANNCast (a call-out show) & talked about some obscure anime that I felt deserved more appreciation, Justin even outright stated that I don't seem to have "high standards". I highly doubt that Justin meant that as an insult, nor did I take it that way, but at the same time it just reaffirmed my feeling that if having "high standards" means that I shouldn't be able to enjoy stuff like Godzilla, Ring ni Kakero 1, Zaizen Jotaro, or Clockwork Fighters: Hiwou's War, then I'd rather not consider myself as having "high standards"... I'd rather just have "standards", i.e. I enjoy what I enjoy & I don't like what I don't like.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
Posts: 5406
Location: Iscandar
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Hypeathon wrote:
I've watched various s*** throughout my life so far (bunch of which I've grown tired of), I've lately ended up learning more about what actually makes good stories, and now I look for something with a concrete point in its story. My expectations in what want to watch have been raised now whether again, people want to believe that or not.


I believe. When I was younger series like Dragon Ball Z were to me the best anime had to offer. But as I have watched more anime, my tastes and expectations have changed. Like you say, I am interested in having a well told story and characters that have substance.

Every once in a while I run into shows similar to DBZ. I do not hate them, but I will lie if I tell that I enjoy bad structured stories with characters that are 90% muscles and 10% brains. I do not enjoy shallow shows because they belong to a particular genre; I do not like them because they do not flex my thinking muscles.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
bj_waters



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 234
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:14 pm Reply with quote
Darn, I was kind of hoping that my answer to last weeks Answerfans! would be posted. I know I've been posted before, but I thought I had a pretty intelligent response, categorizing anime fans into generations of time. I've just always felt that anime fans could be placed in a category based on when they got into anime.

For what it's worth, I had five categories: mid 80s, late 80s to mid 90s, late 90s to mid 2000s, mid 2000s to late 2000s, and late 2000s to now. While they are focused on various waves of anime fandom, they are also influenced by how anime was distributed at the time (television/VHS, fansubs, and theaters/Toonami/DVDs/Streaming). In any case, I thought it was a logical system that didn't force people into niches.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sailorneorune



Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:18 pm Reply with quote
I don't mind shows that include the occasional hot springs episode (example: Outlaw Star. Its hot springs episode was HILARIOUS) or fan service. But when fan service becomes the whole reason for a show's existence, then it immediately goes into the Skip-It bin.

"Boobs!" does not make a good plot summary.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quote
sailorneorune wrote:
I don't mind shows that include the occasional hot springs episode (example: Outlaw Star. Its hot springs episode was HILARIOUS) or fan service. But when fan service becomes the whole reason for a show's existence, then it immediately goes into the Skip-It bin.

"Boobs!" does not make a good plot summary.

I think Strike Witches would've been a MUCH better show if they'd just made their fan service incidental and not the focus of the show. There were so many instances that I felt were ruined because they just *had* to pan the camera down to a panty shot instead of maintaining the flow of the action. I like boobs and bottoms as much as any guy, but everything has its time and place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime My Manga
Kidnicky



Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Posts: 79
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:54 pm Reply with quote
Not one week ago I was rocking out to Bye Bye My Crisis and Konwa No Hurricane in my car.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 1061
Location: New York
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:45 pm Reply with quote
Well, Fencedude5609, Zac said it, so I don't have to say much more about "who cares?" Whoever's been involved in this conversation does, at least a little.

The difference between an elitist and just someone with high standards is that the elitist puts his or her standards in your face and claims that your standards are insufficient.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Errinundra
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6516
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:50 pm Reply with quote
The way I see it, elitism is all about exclusion. An example was displayed in another thread (bolding is mine):

Quote:
How any legitimate anime fan could dismiss Accel World is.... ugh.


The presumption is that anyone who doesn't agree is excluded from the list of "legitimate anime fans".

By way of contrast, if someone simply says that Accel World is garbage, that isn't being elitist. Nobody is being excluded from the discourse. (I just hope they post an argument why Accel World is or isn't good.)

Be egalitarian. Another person's opinion is as a valid as your own. Don't exclude them simply because they differ from you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 1061
Location: New York
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:33 pm Reply with quote
If anyone ever said that about Accel World, I hope you would all help me in giving that person a kicking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:04 pm Reply with quote
errinundra wrote:
Be egalitarian. Another person's opinion is as a valid as your own. Don't exclude them simply because they differ from you.


Opinions can be wrong though, and in fact frequently are.

Anime isn't egalitarian, human intelligence isn't egalitarian, and opinions are not egalitarian. What you want is a system akin to communism, where we have to respect opinions even if they're wrong. No thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Errinundra
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6516
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:19 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Opinions can be wrong though, and in fact frequently are...


There still isn't any reason to exclude an anime fan from the community if their opinion differs from yours.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group