Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2009-06-26]
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NanayaDestruct
Posts: 11 |
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Would that game had been, by chance, Saya no Uta? If so, I do suggest finishing it. As you already noticed that scene was there for a reason. Actually, all the sex scenes were if you were to continue the plot and get the "true end". I find that game to be a perfect mix of darkly disturbing and amazingly beautiful. Of course, not all hentai is like that. Again I lazily rely on the most popular titles to carry my point. Fate/stay night, as well as games like Kanon and Air. Surely this games offend nobody and for the particular genre they fall in appeal to every sense of a fan. Sadly I assume most of you have only seen the Fate/stay night anime, which is a horribly watered-down 305 of the whole story. It's based off the first arc and therefore nothing more than an introduction to the plot and characters. Still, the eroge F/SN is a perfect example. It has such a gripping story and characters full of several different genres. Action, romance, drama, comedy. It's perfect. Not to mention, have you checked out it's fanbase recently? Please do so and tell me eroges does not have a huge following. Speaking of which, has anyone ever seen an event like comicfest in Japan? Let me tell you, the amount of people there is shocking. This is an event that deals with doujins, mostly of the H variety. So I'd like some people here to think about that before they turn down the idea that the majority of anime fans are otaku. Now, while I can accept that some people simply don't like pornography, that wasn't my point. You can't compare the relationship between normal film and normal porn to that of anime and hentai. As I have already stated, much of the anime sub-culture is impacted by eroges and ero-manga. Many anime are based on or influenced by eroges. Almost every series possible has tons of doujins for it. Not to mention that, again, the majority of people that are serious fans of anime are also fans of hentai. It's just not the same thing as RL porn. Sorry. |
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miji
 Posts: 74 |
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I don't really have anything to reply as far as the anime talk, but wanted to say that picture of the polar bear is about the cutest thing I've ever seen
 ! That is all 
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underbase
Posts: 16 |
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Hmm...no? I like me some anime, I have over 2,000 disks in my collection, but I really couldn't give a fig about Japanese culture or values. I'm just here for the cool cartoons. In fact, it used to really get in the way of my enjoyment because the characters would get upset about things that I saw as trivial, and act in ways that were baffling at best and annoying at worst. I've gotten used to it now so that I barely notice anymore, but if I'm watching with someone who isn't an anime fan they'll usually point out the same things. But I think Answerman was being sarcastic there. He was pretty much making your point. It just doesn't take into accout that not everybody watches this stuff for the same reasons. |
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panzer.time
 Posts: 65 Location: Hippie camp |
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I've noticed as I've been reading the talkbacks for various articles here that some readers seem to be just assuming that the main audience of ANN, which is American anime and manga fans, as far as a I can tell, is an identical demographic to what the Japanese call "otaku." I would disagree. The fact that so few eroge get licensed in the US is probably the most damning evidence in my argument's favor; it just isn't really a vital segment of any American entertainment market. Japanese otaku might eat eroge right up and eroge might form a large base for the anime, um, market in Japan, but the case does not seem to be the same here. American anime enthusiasts, as a group, don't seem to enjoy h-games as much as their Japanese counterparts do and eroge aren't a significant part of any market in America, even the anime-type-stuff market. Who can blame the writers at ANN for disliking eroge? The market that they and their audience are a part of doesn't seem to either.
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Quark
 Posts: 710 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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This is one thing I don't understand though - why, the instant that a person develops interest in eroge, they are suddenly labeled as otaku? It just seems strange that watching anime, reading manga, playing rpgs, collecting figures, are all completely fine. But play a pornographic video game, and suddenly you're this big sexual deviant weirdo who doesn't leave their house. And I agree, I doubt that the majority of the users on this forum are 'otaku' From what I've seen, most here have jobs, friends, outside interests, relationships, and kids. But I've also seen members on this forum express interest in eroge, and I'm sure that some of those are the same people with the jobs, friends, partners and kids. Honestly, it makes me sad the knee jerk reaction that people have to these games, especially Brian's opinion that they were all 'scuzzy' and that they scrape the dankest pits of despair. I'll readily admit that there are some like that, but there are others that have genuinely good stories, with likeable characters, and that can make you smile, laugh, or cry. Just because they contain sex scenes in them does not automatically negate any of the positive aspects of them. |
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panzer.time
Posts: 65 Location: Hippie camp |
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I'm not sure that just having sex occur in a video game is the same thing as an eroge. I'm pretty sure that eroge specifically means the scuzzy ones.
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DarkHunter6523
 Posts: 96 |
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Fate Stay Night (in all of its record-setting glory) is classified as an eroge; Kanon, Air, ef, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, are all eroge. Literally, the only condition for something to be an eroge is erotic (+18) content in a game. Personally, I don't think the ANN staffers are hostile towards eroge as some perceive them to be. As a whole, ANN is geared towards Americans and in America "cartoons" are for little kids. An American site that's geared towards anime as a whole is in constant risk of of many little kids visiting and so they have to be as accommodating as possible towards these children (and more specifically the parents of these children and their lawyers). To tacitly denounce the less than flavorful aspects of anime, regardless of how influential they may be, might as well be mandatory for the staffers since a little kid could casually wander into any article, and if an ANN writer is at all giving off the vibes that he/she may possibly be into hardcore loli h-games with severe ankle fetishes, then there could be problems. If you look closely at what was written, I think it was quite accommodating towards eroge and the less than flattering bits were casually mixed with sarcasm. |
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MonkeyFunk
 Posts: 93 |
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Hmm, don't think that's the case. Always seemed to me that most anime fans don't really bother hunting down animation from outside America and Japan - if they're after stories from different cultures, then wouldn't they be into foreign animation in general, not just anime? |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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Adding my own experience to this; when Avatar was in it's heyday (so about a year and a half or two years back) and I was active on avatarspirit.net (which was a pretty large forum) I would either end up telling someone or one of the numerous other forum regulars would end up telling a fan (not a parent but a fan) that no Avatar wasn't Japanese, wasn't anime, it was an American show. Of course part of the misconception could have come from that it is set in a very Asian inspired world but I digress. A lot of people don't know it's American, I don't know if they miss the opening credits with two very American/European-at-least names on the title or if they just aren't use to American shows that actually have nice art and follow a cohesive plot line. I would also like to say that Avatar is one of my favorite shows of all time. That show got me into anime or at least made me more aware of it. And the plot is better than half the shows I have seen, I watch shows for the plot and pretty pictures, not because they are made in Japan (it's just a funny coincidence that they are). Last edited by wandering-dreamer on Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Otaking09
 Posts: 637 |
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Notice how less and less anime appear on Toonami (it doesn't exist anymore), Adult Swim, and how some anime networks are not around anymore?
It is because we, as a nation, don't completely like it enough to profit-ize it to it's full potential. Another way to put it is: not enough Americans like, love, or are even aware of it's existence! So they make "fakes" to slowly trick people that anime is around, when clearly it's not, and also save money from dubbing, and licensing. It all comes down to profits, they make substitutes because not enough people can support. And the fact that streaming anime online too, doesn't help the profits, not to mention how many people are disliking dubbed anime as well. It is easier to watch subbed anime FREE online, where, on the other hand, you have to either wait to watch them on Saturaday mornings, and have to pay a price for a couple of episodes every two months! Anime will never be recognized as nothing more than a fad in the entertainment industry. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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A-Kon has long hung it's hat on being the "biggest & oldest" (the former applying to Texas, the latter being true overall, if only "just"). It hasn't been the "best" in quite some time (unless you rate cons on either of the two factors I just noted). It's been rolling on momentum. I can't speak to the exact REASONS, but the anime programming has been in decline for at LEAST 5 years and is really more of a regional "pseudo-DragonCon" now rather than a true "anime" con. (altho, granted THAT moniker is at best fuzzy nowadays) IMO, if you want the best of "both worlds" (benefits of both large and small cons) check out Animazement in NC. They have consistently had an INCREDIBLE guest list without being a "large" con so it's not as insane as Otakon or Expo. Both the times I went to that con were pleasant experiences. (and I am a Texas con hopper) AnimeFEST is a close second for balancing anime con "pros". Honestly, from what I can tell (and what I know) "mid-size" cons don't do a better job of getting ANIME guests (Japanese voice actors, mangaka, etc.) because "anime" fans don't demand it. That's why cons are swimming in indie bands (Japanese and otherwise) instead. |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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BZZZT! incorrect! both of those shows were western/Japanese co-productions where a majority of the animation was completed IN Japan. my point in my answer was that i'm not a fan of US artists "mimicking" anime just because it's "cool." it is cool, but anime is a very specific style that has to move in a very specific way, and if you try to animate anime-style characters in the same way that you would animate a character from your average low-budget cable TV cartoon show - it looks like crap. i should also add an addendum re: my thoughts on ero-games, SO: i don't hate ero-games. they don't really appeal to me, so i don't play them, so i'm not in any position to speak for their quality. shows that spring forth from the decadent quarters of h-games, like Air and Kanon, bore me to death. since the stories don't interest me, and since i have other ways to express my sexual desires, why would i play them? another point that's already been made is that the stereotypical archetype of the Japanese Otaku - the kind of guy that lines up to buy the latest Sakura Taisen from his favorite game store in Akihabara, who carries around a giant luggage sack filled to the brim with porn, and spends his parent's money at maid cafes - does not in any way exist here in the US. our closest equivalent to this are some of the weirder 4chan users (and that's saying something), who tend to enjoy getting high and posting obscene videos involving goats than to creepily camp out overnight in order to purchase their pre-order copy of Battle Raper 3. and honestly, those "core" otaku aren't really that huge of a market. read this article from the Japan Times. the industry is struggling because it's doing its best to support their loyal otaku, but their numbers are not enough to sustain their growth, and with much of the foreign markets drying up, they're in quite a slump. for the past few years, anime companies have been producing cheap garbage to placate the not-so-vast legions of sad Japanese Otaku, and their balance sheets are suffering because of it. and the Otaku-centric shows they produce have next to no appeal overseas. it's not a great situation all around, and while there's certainly an air of truth to the argument that doujin-makers and eroge companies play an important role in the current anime market, that same market is in a very troubled place during a very troubled economic time. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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That's the general impression most people have about such games and not for a bad reason, but from time to time something more interesting comes around, that can work even if you remove the explicit sexual content from it. Say, I played the "clean" version of Phantom of Inferno that Hirameki brought over and, while the interface was dreadful, the story and characters were pretty good. I've been liking the current anime adaptation too, for that matter. I think there's a decent story in there that doesn't really depend on the pornographic content. In fact, I think it actively works better without it. Some people don't care for it, granted, but that would be for other reasons, good or bad.
But did the market choose to pander to them first or was it the other way around, I wonder? It could be a bit like the whole question about the chicken or the egg. Booms and busts are cyclical. I'm no industry historian, but I distinctly recall that the OVA market went through a crisis after its glory days. This may be a more widespread problem but things will eventually settle down and rise again, if not simply change, regardless of the collateral damage. Another question is why those properties that do enjoy a lot of mainstream success, more than the average anime in fact if we look at some of the ANN charts and figures, haven't been successful enough to sustain the industry as it stands today. Lots of obscure stuff that I can't imagine many normal people buying was produced in the 80's and 90's too. Otaku have been around for a while. |
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iathomps
Posts: 68 |
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Hmmm, a lot of people seem to be confused about visual novels and eroge. Basically it works like this: there are many different subcategories of what we would call a visual novel. In Japan, there are actually two distinct categories, NVL, or Visual Novel where the text is overlaid on the background and there is no special dialog-box, and ADV, or Adventure Game, where in these games the text is presented in a special window, usually at the bottom of the screen. This is distinction is not made in the US, because Adventure Game is used for an existing type of game that is quite different.
Now, besides the differences in presentation, the are the differences in content. There are "clean" games with no erotic content like Ever17, there are "eroge" that do contain some erotic content, but always in the context of a story and usually at the end. A good example would be Fate/Stay Night, which has about 60+ hours of plot and character development and 45 minutes of sex tops. Then you have "Nukige", which only have an excuse for plot and characters, and a large amount of eroscenes. Since I prefer an interesting story and deep, unique characters with extensive character development, I look elsewhere. It is these "Nukiges" that answerman is railing against and that the EOCS is trying to curb. Honestly, the meme "and nothing of value was lost" applies to this. Having recently sampled one (Prison Battleship by Lilith/DarkTranslations if you must know), I can say confidently that 1) these are nothing at all like a story oriented VN like Kanon or Tsukihime and 2) if you enjoy these you must have some serious issues and resentment towards women, because there is nothing there but rape, humiliation, bondage, and degradation of women. Its really bad. So please understand that there are different types here, "good" H-games and "bad" H-games, and by slamming "scuzzy ero games" Answerman isn't disparaging your favorite VN or anime adaptation. Also, I thought the EOCS was going to implement something like a 20% rule concerning rape, so that game developers can still have it as part of the narrative, but not have it be the sole focus of it. |
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iathomps
Posts: 68 |
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Hmmm, a lot of people seem to be confused about visual novels and eroge. Basically it works like this: there are many different subcategories of what we would call a visual novel. In Japan, there are actually two distinct categories, NVL, or Visual Novel where the text is overlaid on the background and there is no special dialog-box, and ADV, or Adventure Game, where in these games the text is presented in a special window, usually at the bottom of the screen. This is distinction is not made in the US, because Adventure Game is used for an existing type of game that is quite different.
Now, besides the differences in presentation, the are the differences in content. There are "clean" games with no erotic content like Ever17, there are "eroge" that do contain some erotic content, but always in the context of a story and usually at the end. A good example would be Fate/Stay Night, which has about 60+ hours of plot and character development and 45 minutes of sex tops. Then you have "Nukige", which only have an excuse for plot and characters, and a large amount of eroscenes. Since I prefer an interesting story and deep, unique characters with extensive character development, I look elsewhere. It is these "Nukiges" that answerman is railing against and that the EOCS is trying to curb. Honestly, the meme "and nothing of value was lost" applies to this. Having recently sampled one (Prison Battleship by Lilith/DarkTranslations if you must know), I can say confidently that 1) these are nothing at all like a story oriented VN like Kanon or Tsukihime and 2) if you enjoy these you must have some serious issues and resentment towards women, because there is nothing there but rape, humiliation, bondage, and degradation of women. Its really bad. So please understand that there are different types here, "good" H-games and "bad" H-games, and by slamming "scuzzy ero games" Answerman isn't disparaging your favorite VN or anime adaptation. Also, I thought the EOCS was going to implement something like a 20% rule concerning rape, so that game developers can still have it as part of the narrative, but not have it be the sole focus of it. |
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