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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:53 am
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@ Exaar - I agree with you about the male leads. In fact, I go farther than you because I don't find Mashiro to be dickish or amoral. Before his sister was killed, he'd fight bullies even when outnumbered (with a seemingly reluctant Yoshino by his side) and after his sister is killed he's bent on finding the murderer and killing that person, while also saving the world. What's dickish or amoral about that?
Yoshino, for his part, has been dealing with the death of his girlfriend and the disappearance of his best friend - I think that gives him some reason to be a bit subdued and listless, yes?
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Exaar
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 279
Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:57 am
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Well, I didn't say that Mashiro's actions were unreasonable, but one of the truths of society is that vigilantism is generally considered amoral - in other words, Mashiro is willing to violate laws and customs (and morality) in order to find and kill his sister's killer. Eye-for-an-eye justice is generally considered to be amoral as well. I think his intentions were more than clear just from his words and tone. What he's doing may be justified and understandable, but I still think it falls into the category of amoral. The moral thing to do would be to A) allow the authorities to handle it entirely, B) Capture her killer and turn him over to the authorities for lawful trial, or C) Forgive him. It's not so much what he's doing as how he is doing it, as well. He seems to take an uncommon glee in the prospect of murdering his sister's killer - again understandable, but not really moral.
As for Yoshino, again, I'm not saying his reactions are unjustified. They are just a bit too apathetic to be interesting (so far). I'm fairly certain there is more to him than meets the eye.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:24 am
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Not to slice semantic hairs, but vigilantism would be considered an immoral act, not amoral. If Mashiro were truly amoral, he'd be beating up any type of person regardless of circumstance, not just numerically superior bullies. However, I understand your general gist.
I guess what interests me about Yoshino is that he was having a secret relationship with Aika. I'm really, really, really hoping he had nothing to do with her death.
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dragoneyes001
Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 873
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:53 am
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this is a follower!
finally an anime with characters that fit the molds they were cast into.
sure it could turn to crap in the next episode but the first episode was well written and executed.
now if only anime writers would stop trying to use mystery speak its tiresome when they allthink they are Shakespeare's
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Exaar
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 279
Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:28 am
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Blood- wrote: | Not to slice semantic hairs, but vigilantism would be considered an immoral act, not amoral. If Mashiro were truly amoral, he'd be beating up any type of person regardless of circumstance, not just numerically superior bullies. However, I understand your general gist.
I guess what interests me about Yoshino is that he was having a secret relationship with Aika. I'm really, really, really hoping he had nothing to do with her death. |
This is entirely a tangent, not really pertaining to the show, but I'm not sure I agree with you about the definition of amoral. Amoral to me means simply not subscribing to the morals of a society, while immoral means actively subscribing to opposing morals or acting against those morals. Beating up random people strikes me as immoral. Beating up a specific person for reasons of your own which are justified but not in agreement with the morals of society strikes me as amoral.
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DuskyPredator
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15433
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:16 pm
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Well I will stand against you guys in saying I do not like the protaganists, I guess the very parts you mentioned Exaar, are the exact reasons I have trouble likeing them. I don't believe in the whole revenge murder thing, to me it just spreads more pain, although this is comming from someone who recently watched and liked the movie Taken 2, or perhaps that is the reason.
I can agree with someone who might be willing to turn themselves into a "demon" to protect justice, a villain to the villains, but I can't agree with someone who feels like they might devour innocence to achieve something they consider a personal justice. And that is what I got from this show. It is the whole Spiderman thing, a true hero won't someone down for the entire purpose of watching the life leaving their eyes.
Different opinions is fun.
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ookamigirl
Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 2274
Location: Croatia
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:17 pm
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Hakaze spirit sure is amazing.
That Samon guy looks interesting.
Yoshino & Mahiro flashbacks were nice.
The black iron syndrome, magic, action...pretty cool!
Yoshino's world turned upside down in a day.
Will be watching this.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:17 pm
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@ Exaar - sigh. Okay, first you have to understand whether you are using the word amoral to describe a person or an action. In a society that deems vigilantism to be wrong, indulging in it is an immoral, not amoral, act. Whether a person who committed the act considers himself immoral, amoral or moral is irrelevant.
If you are using the word amoral to describe a person, you are talking about a person who either is unable to evaluate questions of morality or indifferent to questions of morality. We don't have enough information on Mashiro yet to determine if he is amoral or not. The fact that he targeted bullies suggests he is interested in matters of right and wrong as opposed to being indifferent to them. If we had been shown a character who simply beat people up WITHOUT reference to any particular circumstance, then that would suggest an amoral mindset. We also have no idea about his attitude towards his sister's killer. For all we know, he knows what he is doing wrong, but he feels justified in doing it anyway. If that's the case, then again that suggests he is not fundamentally amoral.
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Exaar
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 279
Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:36 pm
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While I agree that Mashiro hasn't stated his feelings on the matter explicitly, I feel like his attitude and expressions more or less support the view that he isn't reluctant or regretful of his plan of action.
The very definition of an amoral person, 'indifferent to right and wrong', strikes me as the perfect description of Mashiro (currently) from what we know of him right now. He's going to do what he wants to do, regardless of what society says is right or wrong. He's indifferent to that morality. In the past he may have been taking moral actions, but his current course of action is what I'm talking about. Although I grant you that if you are speaking from the viewpoint of society, then it would be considered immoral as it goes against their definition of morality. But from an outside perspective, it seems more amoral as he simply doesn't care about what morality says he should do. Or at least, that's how he comes off from one episode. Maybe that impression will change.
@DuskyPredator - Just to be clear, I would never support this kind of action in real life, nor do I particularly identify with it. In a real-world setting, I would absolutely be against revenge-killing. However, in entertainment, I find a character who pulls no punches and just wrecks devastation upon his enemies to be by far the most entertaining to watch. I dunno, when it comes to my fiction, I love nothing more than traitors, a-holes, and unapologetic badasses. Too much contemplation or wishy-washy self-doubt gets old reallllly fast.
I guess my point is that what I agree with as a person and what is fun to watch are not necessarily the same thing to me. Hence some of my all-time favorite anime characters - Lelouch (Code Geass), Alucard (Hellsing), Shizuru (Mai HiME).. etc etc.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:56 pm
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Exaar wrote: | The very definition of an amoral person, 'indifferent to right and wrong', strikes me as the perfect description of Mashiro (currently) from what we know of him right now. He's going to do what he wants to do, regardless of what society says is right or wrong. He's indifferent to that morality. |
But what evidence are you offering for your opinion that Mashiro is indifferent to right and wrong? I cited an example of how he was before the death of his sister that seems to suggest he does have a sense of right and wrong. Not only that, but seeking revenge for the death of a loved one does not seem like the action of someone who is amoral. It is seems like the action of someone who is seeking "justice" for a wrong and isn't prepared to allow society to exact that justice. A truly amoral person would likely not have that motivation. And if you are interested in responding, please don't simply try to refute my points. Please point to some positive evidence (i.e. something that Mashiro says or does) that suggests an amoral mindset the way I put forward what I perceive as positive evidence that he has a sense of right and wrong (as opposed to being indifferent to such matters).
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underlock
Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 247
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:00 pm
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He's not indifferent, he showed his dislike towards the bad guys more than once. You could argue that Yoshino is indifferent. He didn't seem to have much of an opinion on anything.
You could argue that he has a twisted sense of justice. But that didn't make Light amoral either.
Last edited by underlock on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:04 pm
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underlock wrote: | He's not indifferent, he showed his dislike towards the bad guys more than once. You could argue that Yoshino is indifferent. He didn't seem to have much of an opinion on anything. |
Yeah, but we are talking about a specific kind of indifference. Being apathetic doesn't make you amoral. Not attaching any significance to matters of morality is what makes you amoral.
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underlock
Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 247
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:08 pm
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An eye for an eye would make him immoral before our judicial system. And an eye for an eye is clearly his intention, as he himself stated.
The end of the episode was the only interesting thing. It's clear that his sister didn't die to some burglar. I'm thinking more along the lines of sacrificial lamb.
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Exaar
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 279
Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:27 pm
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@Blood- I'm not sure I can really offer you any evidence you would find convincing, as I don't really agree with your interpretation of the definition we're working with. To me, he is amoral because he seems indifferent to whether or not society things he is right or wrong. He hasn't stated that, so I can't point to any hard facts. That's just the impression I get from his behavior, tone of voice, choice of words, etc. It's enough for me to say I think he is amoral and not immoral. But if you want harder support than that, I can't give it to you. I guess we'll have to see how the show develops. But to me, for now, I'm sticking to my guns.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:26 pm
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@ Exaar, that's cool. By the way, although it may have seemed like it, I wasn't trying to badger you. I sometimes miss stuff on a first viewing and I was curious if perhaps something specific had happened that might lend credence to your...
...TOTALLY WRONG IMPRESSION!!!
I kid, I kid.
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