Forum - View topicNEWS: Bleach Ends Watchmen's 11-Month Run as #1 Graphic Novel
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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I would also add Road to Perdition, The Redstar, and if you are a child of the 80's The Transformers and G.I. Joe crossovers (There are three of them) So there have been some really great comics coming out, you just have to notice them (Also add Marvel:1602 and DC's Kingdom Come.) |
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GATSU
Posts: 15299 |
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greenwolf:
No, it just makes you as condescending as American comic fans who like bashing manga, just because it's manga. Hey, I don't like that that stupid vampire series from that Mormon chick is cutting into sales of quality shojo titles, but if it gets people to appreciate the medium in general, then I'm all for it.
I imagine a lot of manga fans are the same, since Watchmen was a better seller for so long.
First off, Bleach isn't even a sci-fi series, while Time and Watchmen are owned by the same company. As for awards, wikipedia says Bleach won one from Shogakukan in 2005, and won quite a few with the SPJA.
So you're arguing that Watchmen has no quality, either? 
Too bad Japan beat them to it. =p
That's bull. The only people who read these comics are comic book fans, because it caters specifically to them, and not regular readers. fuuma:
That's because DC dicked Moore out of control of the title, not because people still buy it, other than in relation to the movie. Jedi: Cela's read it, and is right. Watchmen is a giant middle finger to comic fans the way that Eva is a middle finger to mecha fans; and people in either group are too stupid to realize it, which is why they defend these works so much. arachnea:
It sounds like lazy fan-fiction to me. |
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Kid Ryan
 Posts: 506 Location: Sacramento, California |
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This is AWESOME NEWS
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Interesting. The only thing I've read out of all that is Sandman which arguably is on the same level as Watchmen. (I've read Fables too, which I'd agree is not super deep but a damned good comic.) I'll definitely check some of these out though if they're as good as Watchmen and Sandman. Anyway I'd argue that Hellboy, while perhaps not as deep as the aforementioned is easily a masterpiece of the same caliber for the effectiveness of it's storytelling, artwork and the mood they combine to create. I would also say Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan and other works are worth mentioning as is to a slightly lesser extent Brian K Vaughan's Last Man and Ex Machina, Jeph Loeb's Batman The Long Halloween and related works, Powers, Hellblazer and of course there's also the rest of Alan Moore's work and the rest of Frank Miller's (early) work. Of course, not all of this is by any means on the same level as Watchmen but still, very notable comics. |
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nqm
Posts: 14 |
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Personally I don't mind that Bleach beat out Watchmen. One Alan Moore isn't getting a single cent of royalties from any of the sales so it doesn't matter to me whether Watchmen is on the best sellers list or not.
Sometimes people need escapist entertainment it's no different with Western comics as well. I mean I read some comics that only get a reaction from the inner 12 year old in me. There are all kinds of comics out there if you know where to look. Like mentioned before Neil Gaiman's Sandman, Fables, Y the Last Man (one of my personal favorites recently) Maus, Powers, Hellblazer Brian Wood does alot of varied stuff like a slice of life indy comic called Local in which the protagonist goes from different locales in each issue and discovers that each place has a certain charm. He wrote a viking tale called Northlanders that makes Conan the Barbarian look diplomatic. Brian Vaughn's The Escapists i personally love because it's a comic about the love of making comics. It's about this Jewish kid in Cleveland who wants to resurrect a golden aged Pulp Hero called the Escapist and wants to bring it to a new generation. Ex Machina an ex superhero becomes mayor of New York and has to deal with politics, social issues, If you like Crime stories there's 100 Bullets, Ed Brubaker's Criminal, Frank Miller's Sin City, Scalped, Brian Bendis Jinx and Torso. Gotham Central deals with the cops who have to work in Gotham city. Matt Wagner's Mage is a pretty good book. Not your typical superhero stuff. Jeff Smith's Bone is a great adventure book. I personally like Jonathan Hickman's stuff like the Nightly News, Pax Romana, Red Mass for Mars If you like spy stuff and a kickass strong heroine I'd go with Greg Rucka's Queen & Country. If you like the undead there's the Walking Dead. Not so much about the zombies but the fact that Robert Kirkman makes you care about the characters and their survival and that no cow is sacred in any of his books which includes his superhero tale Invincible. It's kind of refreshing that a writer would be so ballsy like that with his characters. Grant Morrison's All Star Superman never has a book made me realize how much comics need a character of pure good like the big blue boyscout. This is coming from someone who isn't a big supes fan. But to me it's all comics and I really hate when either faction gets real uppity about it. I wish people would be more open minded and read the works of some of the great western comics out and for the Western comics fanboys need to actually put away their bias as well and see that there are some great manga as well. |
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fuuma_monou
 Posts: 1817 Location: Quezon City, Philippines |
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I thought he just declined royalties from the movie, opting to give his share to Dave Gibbons. There was the case of DC claiming that the bloody smiley face buttons in the 80s were "promotional material" and not merchandise, so no royalties were given. ISTR that he wants his name taken off some graphic novels that he doesn't have copyright to (like Watchmen), so he might turn down the royalties and give them to the artists as well. |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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No one's talking about influence. This is your original statement:
So, yeah. Deep and thought provoking inherently have nothing to do with popularity and bankability. You've asked for profound American titles, and I've given you some. And not only that, but since you are pretty much, by your own admission, unfamiliar with a lot of the American comic book scene, how can you even posit a claim that nothing approaches Watchmen in depth or intellect? Watchmen is not the end-all, be-all. There are better titles out there. Just because it's eons better than Bleach does not mean that it is itself the god of comic books. Personally, I think nothing can beat Asterix, which is both a profound critique and extremely funny, but you don't see that dominating the sales either. Last edited by arachneia on Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Riiiiight, you mean like those condescending Manga fans you bash domestic comics because it's not manga? You should know all about that GATSU, considering you are one of the most obvious examples of that mindset. Seriously, it's a bit hypocritical for you to attack people for bias when you are probably the most blatantly bias person on this forum.
Are you serious? Yes, Time and Watchmen do have the same parent company, this has never caused an apparent slant in their previous lists, but now it does because it's convenient for your statement? Then you throw out awards that have equal, if not more, potential for bias to support your statement?
No, that's not what he said. Either address his comment or ignore it, but don't sit here and play the spin game, it adds nothing to the discussion and only serves to anger people, which makes your comment little more than trolling. Particularly when you use your favored little eye rolling emoticon.
Not really, because American comics have had that level of diversity for a long time. In fact, Watchmen itself is nearly 25 years old. Watchmen, in conjunction with the theatrical release, simply opened it up to the mainstream instead of the niche market that range of domestic comics have always been. Unfortunately, manga is still a niche market. So no, Japan didn't beat them to anything as far as numbers go here in the US.
Then support that. Just telling someone their comment is bull is little more than trolling again. I know plenty of people who've read Watchmen who otherwise hadn't bothered with comics, so it doesn't seem like bull to me. And I'm afraid that just you saying it's bull doesn't make it so.
Irrelevant, because DC isn't going to just keep printing it because they can. If people weren't buying it they wouldn't keep printing it.
Oh is it? Sounds like more trolling buddy. Just saying, "hey, it's a middle finger to comics fans and you're all to stupid to realize it" is pretty much an insult to people on this forums you're addressing, all the while without anything to support or back up the statement aside from your own outrageously bias point of view, which itself is barely even noted to support the comment. I'm telling you right now, if this kind of posting keeps up, the bulk of your posts are going to end up in the forum trash.
Good for you, have you read it? Did you even give it a chance? I'd put money on you not having even bothered to do either, since you it's not from Japan. Regardless, just replying to say "it's lazy fan-fiction" is practically trolling yet again. If it's awful and you've read it, then support your opinion, as bias as it may be. If you looked it up and decided it's awful and never bothered to read it or give it a real chance, then keep your mouth shut instead of going out of your way to attack anyone who dares to give any praise to something that's not from Japan. Seriously GATSU, you trying to turn every thread in to your soapbox to bash industries outside Japan, particularly here in the US, is getting tiresome. Half your comments are practically trolling and do nothing for the sake of the discussion. Seeing a mention of something domestic isn't a beacon for you to come in with your Japan-centric fanaticism, you are still required to support your comments, discuss the topic at hand, and avoid trolling. Some of your comments were legit, regardless of the amazingly sick level of bias, but that bias is your right to hold. I'm really getting tired of sending you warnings bud. Being a long time poster does not give you a free pass to troll. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I'm actually not a huge fan of Sandman, but I think it's a better, and certainly more comprehensive work than Watchmen. The one thing that's always bothered me about Watchmen is that it's deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction. It places something that is blatantly fictional and escapist into a real life scenario, completely ignoring the utter unlikelihood of anyone actually going out in a spandex costume to fight crime. This kind of crap just doesn't happen in real life, and no matter how much you want to get into the psyche of it all, it's a futile effort because it would never happen in reality. Needless to say, I have the same problem with the new Batman movies. Frankly, out of the titles I've listed, I would only fully recommend The Preacher. Kabuki is extremely weird and circuitous, with more inner monologue than plot, and although the art is beautiful and the protagonist's backstory very interesting and original, it's not what I would call a fun read. The Fountain is a beautiful story, but also one of the most depressing things you'll ever read (should you choose to). Oh, and if you like Neil Gaiman's work in Sandman, read his novels if you haven't already.
I'm sure. You seem like an authority on fan-fiction. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Ah Gatsu, it seems your a bit late for the party. I would reply to your jabs at me, but it'd be a bit redundant since Keonyn already did a fantastic job of addressing your senseless dribble. I could give you the enjoyment of a real reply, but it'd be a waste of time since you're obviously not here for an actual discussion. Don't you have a bridge to go back under somewhere? If you don't pay attention, you might miss some goats.
However, now I think I'm in a charitable mood here and will actually address one of your remarks so that you, Gatsu may learn something from this experience. The Hugo Awards are given out to the best science fiction and FANTASY works. Bleach meets genre qualification for nomination, it just doesn't meet their standards. As to the Neil Gaiman talk going on now, I'll happily second any comments complimenting that man's greatness. Comic book wise I was happy beyond belief when for the 10th year anniversary of Sandman they released Dream Hunters in comic book format a couple months back. The art was no where near as lovely as Yoshitaka Amano's work in the original story, but I adored the attempt to work in the ukiyo-e style. That, and the covers by Yuko Shimizu were absolutely gorgeous, so much I'm looking for prints. It all made me really wish Sandman was back. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15299 |
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Keonyn:
No, I just hate bash domestic comics, because they don't have the balls to do anything challenging with the medium like manga. Even Alan Moore feels American comics are in a rut, and he's probably more responsible for its emo phase than anyone else.
No, it's not hypocritical, since I can accept Watchmen being number 1, because I still feel it's good for the industry as a whole. But the Bleach-haters seem to treat anyone who reads the manga as a low-brow idiot.
I'm sure there's plenty of conflict of interest in their prior lists, if any other Time-Warner/DC stuff gets awarded, too.
If it was biased, I'd imagine OP would win.
And Phoenix and Lone Wolf and Cub are older.
The ratio of manga fangirls to comic fanboys says otherwise. :roll:
The fact that they needed a movie in the first place, because no one outside of that medium cared otherwise, supports it.
But has it made them interested in more comics?
Dude, there are tons of graphic novels still rotting on the shelf from at least 20 years ago. The industry kept printing, because it created the same kind of fake money which destroyed our housing market.
Why would you kill off the main characters in either medium, if you loved them so much?
No, it's the truth. Moore couldn't compete with everyone else who did "dark" takes on fairy tales, so he decided to turn them into child porn, just to get attention. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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What you're talking about: Lost Girls What we're talking about: Fables You |
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nqm
Posts: 14 |
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It's one of the reasons why Alan Moore and DC don't get along anymore in that he doesn't get continued royalties from sales of the Killing Joke, Watchmen, or any of the stuff he did for DC when it comes to royalties with merchendising. When Moore did his America's Best Comics Line as an imprint of Jim Lee's Wildstorm. When Jim Lee split form Image and sold Wildstorm to DC. Moore didn't want to work for DC again so he quit. Regarding Gatsu. Manga wouldn't even have it's current format if they weren't inspired by the sequential art style of Golden age comics and Pulp comics of the 1930's and 40's. Whether you like or not manga has been inspired by western comics. You're talking out of your ass dude. Are many western comics repetitive and derivative? Yes but so are alot of manga are just as dull and derivative. I'd take bad Warren Ellis any day of the week over Ken Akamatsu's latest masterpiece. How does the housing market equate to comic book printings? But as far as it is now though why do you need a companies motive for doing a reprint of a series? Yeah in the 90's collectability was killing the industry that the same fans were buying all the variant covers and when economic times got tight people didn't buy all the 80 thousand variant covers of the comics that the industry particularly Marvel but that's not how it is now. Movies based on comic book properties are the fad currently so movie studios are looking to cash in looking for these stories so what's it to you why a movie is being made? I'm sure Time Warner loves the fact that it owns the properties that it can use to make movies in that they symbiotically boost sales of one another. Studios make movies based on comic book properties because they think it will sell. Not to garner interest int he comic book. Im sure movie studios could care less if it drives up sales of the comic as long as it affects their bottom line at the box office. Warner Brothers studios doesn't care whether Watchmen makes DC richer if the Neilsen scan ratings if it bombs at the box office even though they are owned by the same parent company. Time Warner may want that synergy but Warner Brothers would just like a return on their investment. You haven't even read any of the good western comics how can you form the opinion that they don't challenge the reader? I mean have you ever read Preacher by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon? I'd say that challenged the reader on controversy alone whether you liked it or not. |
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LeoKnight25
 Posts: 319 Location: Puyallup, WA |
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Okay, first off, if you actually read my post the first time around I did say that I did not like Watchmen. But, I did say that I recognized that it was fairly deep along with a few other titles. Forgive me if I added influential in there. Normally, deeper titles happen to become extremely influential to budding young comic writers and artists, such as those I mentioned. But, again, forgive me. It was a minor mishap . I, however, did not ask you for anything so, that's all on you. All I said was that I couldn't think of anything else that came to being as well recognized as Watchmen is. It did make Time Magazine's top 100 Novels of all time, a feat not very easy considering how many folks look down on the comics market as being trash.
Second, I thought I just said I'd been reading comics basically my whole life. What about that didn't compute? I never, ever said I was unfamiliar with the American comics scene. Just never having read those titles, although familiar with them by at least looking at them and reading about them. I don't think that makes up the whole of the American comics scene, and if that's all you think there is to it, you're sorely mistaken. I've been reading comics since I was probably around 5 or 6, about 24 years, and have been following titles from Marvel, DC, Atlas, Warren, Harris, Image, Dark Horse, Archie, Malibu, Antarctic Press, Eternity, Top Cow, Gold Key, Dell, Modern, etc., etc., etc. Titles ranging from super hero epics like Spider-Man, Superman, Hulk, Batman, Wonder Woman, X-Men. Disney comics, Witchblade, Vampirella, Wild Cats, Archie, Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. So, just because I haven't read those particular titles does not make me unfamiliar with American comics. I don't appreciate the tone of your post and would go so far as to say your attitude really sucks. So, maybe think about that next time when somone is trying to make decent conversation. Being confrontational, even in a fairly anonymous setting llke the net, ain't gonna win you browny points. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15299 |
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nqm: Um, manga has its roots in ukyo-e. The comic book has its roots in pulp novels. So the Japanese have been telling their stories in sequential form for a while now. All they really did with comics was "borrow" the frames and word bubbles.
I'm alluding to how they tried to game the value of individual comics with multiple covers. And like housing, people bought into that bs; and now they got tons of worthless issues with only the ones which have any historical value being worth anything. As for how it is now, it's still a bunch of superheroes with variant covers, but the real money is in the movie deals. And I got no problem with movies being made, as long as they get it right. But other than the [American] superhero stuff, they usually fudge up what made the idea so appealing in the first place. Hell, I'm still waiting for a good adaptation of an Alan Moore movie. And the reason these flicks and DB: E suck is because the writers think the audience is too stupid to appreciate something which doesn't have pointless dialogue and/or an unnecessarily complicated story. And if enough of these turds invade the market, people could lose interest fast. As for Preacher, it sounds like a Frank Miller-wannabe, but with religious commentary to make it come off "intellectual". |
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