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NEWS: Right Stuf Adds Aria the Origination & Arietta, Antique Bakery, Junjou Romantica


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poehitman



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:38 am Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
poehitman wrote:
So I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not paying a dime for what is essentially a glorified fansub. If you want me to pay money for the series, you need to offer me something that I feel is worth paying for. And that is an english dub track.
Okay, so clearly you see no intrinsic value in anime itself. That's fine, we get it... just go buy the stuff that is dubbed and let your wallet do the talking, because complaining up a storm every time one of these sub-only releases comes up is pointless. But I have to hand it to the "sub-only DVDs are like fansubs on disc" crowd -- they've come up with a way to simultaneously insult the work of fansubbers and DVD subtitlers.


I don't know why you think I was insulting fansubbers, cause I wasn't. And if enough people complain from the dub fans, maybe they will realize that their plan of releasing glorified fansubs and ruining the chance of getting a dub done is pissing off a lot of people. They'll never know people are unhappy with it if people don't complain.

And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.

And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 885
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:07 am Reply with quote
poehitman wrote:
And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.


I guess this is the difference between collectors willing to consider sub-only releases and the "it's glorified fansubs on a disc" crowd... we want to collect the show, you demand something that you couldn't have otherwise gotten thrown in as well (and ignore any other extra material included that isn't an English dub).

poehitman wrote:
And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.


Actually, no, we don't think that. I only really expect people to collect the shows they particularly like... and think that it's how much you like the show itself that should be the determining factor in a purchasing decision, not whether or not it comes with another audio track. If you only watched dubs, I can understand it influencing your decision, but from what you've said you watch fansubs so you can't be that opposed to the idea of watching something subtitled.

Actually, do you buy any American TV shows on DVD? If so, what do you require in them for it to be more than or different from what you've seen on TV and therefore worth getting instead of just giving your VCR a workout?
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6601
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:51 am Reply with quote
poehitman wrote:
I don't know why you think I was insulting fansubbers, cause I wasn't. And if enough people complain from the dub fans, maybe they will realize that their plan of releasing glorified fansubs and ruining the chance of getting a dub done is pissing off a lot of people. They'll never know people are unhappy with it if people don't complain.
I'll break it down for you: many fansubbers and fansub enthusiasts don't hold DVD subs in very high esteem. At least for good fansubs, the work put into timing, typesetting, presentation, and subtitle writing/editing (and karaoke, but that's a DVD limitation issue) easily eclipses the work done on average DVDs. So for the people who've done that fansubbing work, I can see how they'd take offense to being directly compared with DVD releases. Some sub-only releases like Media-Blasters' Sentimental Journey would be laughed out of the fansub world if they were released as fansubs.

I'm pretty sure Nozomi is aware of the complaints by now, given that they've come up every single time their company's name is so much as whispered around here. Shawne Kleckner even made reference to it in his AX keynote speech:
Quote:
The change in this type of selling creates a conundrum for the US distributor - they are in a position where the license fees, generally per-episode, remain fairly high, but they have eliminated the initial revenue stream from the single-DVDs that were released in the past, in a market where total sales per unit are in decline. This has led to some hard decisions having to be made, such as whether titles can be dubbed, the type of packaging to be used, changes in authoring to drop replication cost, and so on. Some fans are not happy with this end result, which I'll get into in my next section. Still, to compete in the market you have to remain lean, and it's tough to do so when margins are in decline. Prices will continue to fall. Something has to give here, whether it be in production costs, licensing costs, or just in overhead.


Quote:
And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.
Please define "ridiculous." A $50 MSRP for 13 eps can drop as low as $27 at typical TRSI sale prices. That's about $2 per episode, the going iTunes rate for US TV episodes. Considering that the Japanese would pay $50 or more for a mere 2 episodes, and most imported goods tend to be more expensive outside their place of origin, I can hardly see $27 for 13 sub-only eps as a bad deal. And you haven't always "seen the exact same thing." Ask people who saw Moonphase on fansubs and DVD if they got the exact same thing.

Quote:
And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.
But it's not the same. Do you pay for Japanese over-the-air, cable, or satellite broadcasts? Do you record those episodes via Tivo/DVR/VHS/etc.? Do you get them from a close personal friend who does those things? Fansub distro member "Phat_pip3_9001" doesn't count. Fansubs aren't part of the "natural order" like shows taped off domestic cable/broadcast.

And you're extrapolating too far. Do I think everyone should buy every anime or other TV show they see on TV once it's on home video? No. I certainly don't do so myself. But I do think there's something wrong with really liking or loving Subtitled Anime #4902, and then deciding it has no monetary value due to the lack of an English audio track. Unlike US TV, anime generally doesn't make any money off advertising, so buying DVDs is the best/only way that we as fans can contribute to the system that allows the stuff to be made.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9321
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:17 am Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
Unlike US TV, anime generally doesn't make any money off advertising, so buying DVDs is the best/only way that we as fans can contribute to the system that allows the stuff to be made.


Well, that and buying tons and tons of figures, which I prefer over DVDs. I wish the merchandising market would grow in America.

Moichendising, moichendising, where the real money from the anime is made. Anime-the T-shirt, Anime-the Coloring Book, Anime-the Lunch box, Anime-the Breakfast Cereal, Anime-the Flame Thrower. The kids love this one.

But really, I tend to see the DVDs for a more popular property as one of the side ventures. I guess my example will be Queen's Blade. MegaHouse and Griffon were producing those figures for the artbooks and card games long before the show, the show was made for the already established fanbase. So I'm sure they don't have to sweat as hard if the DVD sales are below par. But it's of course not the same with all shows.
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Craeyst Raygal



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1383
Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:41 am Reply with quote
While I'll always agree that a good dub is hugely important in attempting to introduce people to anime, and in fact is a tremendous part of why shows like Trigun and Cowboy Bebop are easy to use to lure in new fans, I find it hard to make the argument that Aria is a series you'd use to hook folks as anime fans.

I rather like Aria. It's been a pleasant surprise to me, and I look forward to each episode as they appear on TAN. However, I'm very aware that it's an acquired taste because of its pacing and - well - lack of a central storyline.

Sub-only DVD's make sense for small companies releasing niche titles. They've been a part of our hobby practically since the introduction of DVD's. AnimEigo's Urasei Yatsura boxsets and ADV's issuing of Miyuki-chan in Wonderland are good examples of this.
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poehitman



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:25 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
poehitman wrote:
I don't know why you think I was insulting fansubbers, cause I wasn't. And if enough people complain from the dub fans, maybe they will realize that their plan of releasing glorified fansubs and ruining the chance of getting a dub done is pissing off a lot of people. They'll never know people are unhappy with it if people don't complain.
I'll break it down for you: many fansubbers and fansub enthusiasts don't hold DVD subs in very high esteem. At least for good fansubs, the work put into timing, typesetting, presentation, and subtitle writing/editing (and karaoke, but that's a DVD limitation issue) easily eclipses the work done on average DVDs. So for the people who've done that fansubbing work, I can see how they'd take offense to being directly compared with DVD releases. Some sub-only releases like Media-Blasters' Sentimental Journey would be laughed out of the fansub world if they were released as fansubs.

I'm pretty sure Nozomi is aware of the complaints by now, given that they've come up every single time their company's name is so much as whispered around here. Shawne Kleckner even made reference to it in his AX keynote speech:
Quote:
The change in this type of selling creates a conundrum for the US distributor - they are in a position where the license fees, generally per-episode, remain fairly high, but they have eliminated the initial revenue stream from the single-DVDs that were released in the past, in a market where total sales per unit are in decline. This has led to some hard decisions having to be made, such as whether titles can be dubbed, the type of packaging to be used, changes in authoring to drop replication cost, and so on. Some fans are not happy with this end result, which I'll get into in my next section. Still, to compete in the market you have to remain lean, and it's tough to do so when margins are in decline. Prices will continue to fall. Something has to give here, whether it be in production costs, licensing costs, or just in overhead.


Quote:
And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.
Please define "ridiculous." A $50 MSRP for 13 eps can drop as low as $27 at typical TRSI sale prices. That's about $2 per episode, the going iTunes rate for US TV episodes. Considering that the Japanese would pay $50 or more for a mere 2 episodes, and most imported goods tend to be more expensive outside their place of origin, I can hardly see $27 for 13 sub-only eps as a bad deal. And you haven't always "seen the exact same thing." Ask people who saw Moonphase on fansubs and DVD if they got the exact same thing.

Quote:
And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.
But it's not the same. Do you pay for Japanese over-the-air, cable, or satellite broadcasts? Do you record those episodes via Tivo/DVR/VHS/etc.? Do you get them from a close personal friend who does those things? Fansub distro member "Phat_pip3_9001" doesn't count. Fansubs aren't part of the "natural order" like shows taped off domestic cable/broadcast.

And you're extrapolating too far. Do I think everyone should buy every anime or other TV show they see on TV once it's on home video? No. I certainly don't do so myself. But I do think there's something wrong with really liking or loving Subtitled Anime #4902, and then deciding it has no monetary value due to the lack of an English audio track. Unlike US TV, anime generally doesn't make any money off advertising, so buying DVDs is the best/only way that we as fans can contribute to the system that allows the stuff to be made.


I don't particularly like watching a subtitled anime, but I will if it's the only way to see it. I much rather prefer watching it dubbed. So you want me to pay money to watch something in a way I don't particularly like watching it to begin with. The only reason I watch it subbed is because I can watch it for free with a fansub to see if I'm going to give it a shot when it gets licensed AND DUBBED. If you aren't going to dub it, I'm not paying for it. I don't like watching subtitled anime because I can't read very fast, so for me it takes away from the experience of watching the anime if I have to keep rewinding the video to read what I missed. But if it's the only way to see an anime, I'll do it. Why would I pay money to watch an anime like that?

It's the same concept as why I would purchase a DVD of a television show I would like. I don't buy it to "support the creators of the show". I buy it because it's in a format that doesn't degrade over time and it takes up less space than a shelf full of VHS tapes. It offers me something that my taped version does not that I'm willing to pay for.

In the same vein, what does the sub-only version offer me that a fansub doesn't? I'm not supporting the creator of the anime. My money doesn't go to that company or that person, it goes to the company that licensed it in the US. There's no way I can legally pay for anime in a format that has a language that I can understand that I can directly support the creators that I know of.

And I WANT more dubbed anime. If I pay for sub-only anime, I'm giving the licensing company the idea that I'm willing to pay for subbed anime. If I do that, they he's going to keep on releasing anime as sub-only. Why would I do that? If a company is only going to release sub-only anime, I WANT them to go out of business.
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1649
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:10 pm Reply with quote
poehitman wrote:
In the same vein, what does the sub-only version offer me that a fansub doesn't? I'm not supporting the creator of the anime. My money doesn't go to that company or that person, it goes to the company that licensed it in the US. There's no way I can legally pay for anime in a format that has a language that I can understand that I can directly support the creators that I know of.


So if your money doesn't directly go to the creators, you're not really supporting them. Is that about it? Leaving aside whether middlemen deserve their cut of the revenue, not buying means you're not supporting the creators at all.
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Quark



Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 709
Location: British Columbia, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:52 pm Reply with quote
poehitman wrote:
If a company is only going to release sub-only anime, I WANT them to go out of business.


Do you even realize how incredibly selfish that sounds? That because they're not catering specifically to you, then they may as well go under. Never mind that there are plenty of fans who happen to like the work that some of these companies are doing - they are releasing charming, lesser known series (series that are being passed over by other companies), for a good price, and sometimes, with great extras and packaging. But since you didn't get a dub for a series that would not have been released otherwise, you wish for a company to go out of business.
You guys don't even stop to consider that maybe skipping a dub is the only way a series is going to get a North American release, while still turning a profit for the company releasing it.
By saying that you want these companies to go under, you are essentially saying that since you refuse to buy a sub-only release, that other fans shouldn't even have the option of getting them either. That's really nice.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 885
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:31 pm Reply with quote
poehitman wrote:
I don't particularly like watching a subtitled anime, but I will if it's the only way to see it. I much rather prefer watching it dubbed. So you want me to pay money to watch something in a way I don't particularly like watching it to begin with. The only reason I watch it subbed is because I can watch it for free with a fansub to see if I'm going to give it a shot when it gets licensed AND DUBBED. If you aren't going to dub it, I'm not paying for it. I don't like watching subtitled anime because I can't read very fast, so for me it takes away from the experience of watching the anime if I have to keep rewinding the video to read what I missed. But if it's the only way to see an anime, I'll do it. Why would I pay money to watch an anime like that?


Don't watch fansubs then. Wait until shows get dubbed before borrowing from a friend, renting them, watch it on TV if it makes it that far, whatever.

poehitman wrote:
It's the same concept as why I would purchase a DVD of a television show I would like. I don't buy it to "support the creators of the show". I buy it because it's in a format that doesn't degrade over time and it takes up less space than a shelf full of VHS tapes. It offers me something that my taped version does not that I'm willing to pay for.


So if you owned a DVR with a DVD recorder, you wouldn't buy any TV shows?

poehitman wrote:
In the same vein, what does the sub-only version offer me that a fansub doesn't? I'm not supporting the creator of the anime. My money doesn't go to that company or that person, it goes to the company that licensed it in the US. There's no way I can legally pay for anime in a format that has a language that I can understand that I can directly support the creators that I know of.


You may not be directly supporting the creators, but you're supporting a company that helps support the creators. Close enough for most practical purposes.

poehitman wrote:
And I WANT more dubbed anime. If I pay for sub-only anime, I'm giving the licensing company the idea that I'm willing to pay for subbed anime. If I do that, they he's going to keep on releasing anime as sub-only. Why would I do that? If a company is only going to release sub-only anime, I WANT them to go out of business.


Look... these companies aren't stupid. If they think that they'll make more profit dubbing a show than not dubbing a show, they'll dub it. For a lot of these more niche shows, they're more likely to go bust dubbing them than not dubbing them.
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