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The X Button - Fighting for Nothing


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Ralifar



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 205
Location: League City, TX
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:37 pm Reply with quote
I don't really get why you're getting so bent out of shape by Sugiyama. The truth about many of Japan's less than desirable actions aren't really common knowledge in Japan. Sugiyama isn't a lone wolf spouting propaganda. This is what was taught in schools until recently. The textbooks are still somewhat messed up. They've only recently begun a reform of the many fallacies of Japan's past that they teach. My friend has been teaching English in Japanese schools for the past 5 years. She told me a story about one of her students coming up to her upset after she saw the movie Pearl Harbor because of the way it portrayed the Japanese as attacking America first and starting it. I've been to the Peace Memorial Museum in Hiroshima. What's written in English isn't the same thing as what's written in Japanese right next to it. Of course, in the long run, history will always be written by the winning side regardless of what actually happened. Razz
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Josh7289



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 1252
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:41 pm Reply with quote
Ralifar wrote:
I don't really get why you're getting so bent out of shape by Sugiyama. The truth about many of Japan's less than desirable actions aren't really common knowledge in Japan. Sugiyama isn't a lone wolf spouting propaganda. This is what was taught in schools until recently. The textbooks are still somewhat messed up. They've only recently begun a reform of the many fallacies of Japan's past that they teach. My friend has been teaching English in Japanese schools for the past 5 years. She told me a story about one of her students coming up to her upset after she saw the movie Pearl Harbor because of the way it portrayed the Japanese as attacking America first and starting it. I've been to the Peace Memorial Museum in Hiroshima. What's written in English isn't the same thing as what's written in Japanese right next to it. Of course, in the long run, history will always be written by the winning side regardless of what actually happened. Razz

Sugiyama is 78, so he lived through WWII old enough to know what was going on. The dumb bastard probably fell for all the propaganda back then, and since then never thought to open his mind to the truth.
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Captain Crotchspike



Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:41 pm Reply with quote
konkonsn wrote:
I didn't see anything about boycotting the series. Fans always like to jump to conclusions like this because they think they're being called "bad guys" because their idol is a "bad guy." You can buy the game without the regret; it's just important that you know what you're doing.

I think informing all the readers of this column is a pretty good way to start. Very Happy Remember, this isn't a call for a boycott, just that people maybe acknowledge the guy's a loon and put some pressure on him for it.

Well, er, seeing as how he said, "fans lined up early in the morning to buy Dragon Quest IX and give some of their money to a man who thinks the Nanking Massacre never happened", it doesn't take long to get the implication that there's something wrong with people who buy things Koichi Sugiyama had anything to do with. Like GATSU said, while what Sugiyama said shouldn't be taken lightly, Todd could certainly offer some kind of constructive protest.

I mean, really, all I get from that is that there's something wrong with me for buying Shiren the Wanderer.
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konkonsn



Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Captain Crotchspike wrote:
Well, er, seeing as how he said, "fans lined up early in the morning to buy Dragon Quest IX and give some of their money to a man who thinks the Nanking Massacre never happened", it doesn't take long to get the implication that there's something wrong with people who buy things Koichi Sugiyama had anything to do with. Like GATSU said, while what Sugiyama said shouldn't be taken lightly, Todd could certainly offer some kind of constructive protest.

I mean, really, all I get from that is that there's something wrong with me for buying Shiren the Wanderer.


Maybe it's because I'm not a fan, so I don't feel immediately threatened by the prospect of my game being dissed. All I see is, "Look, you're giving your money to this guy. You should probably know what his views are." I don't think anyone who buys these games is terrible because the musician is a jerk. But I think they should know what he supports so if they write letters/meet him/talk about him with others, they can be prepared to let him know they don't take his politics too well.

What does annoy me is how willing people are to write these things off as "not their problem" and the reasoning they use to justify that stance. You don't have to boycott your game, but if you do like the guy's music and can talk about these politics with other gamers, you have some influence on these matters. Maybe you won't be changing Sugiyama's mind, but you can direct his fans in the right direction or just have a really good discussion about something that's important.

Like I said before, Todd's already offered a constructive protest by informing us all.
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Son-kun



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 345
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:04 am Reply with quote
Well, I'm still of fan of Toriyama and Horii. Thanks for the info on Sugiyama.
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Captain Crotchspike



Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:06 am Reply with quote
But he didn't merely inform us, he outright left the impression that there is something wrong with people who buy something Sugiyama has worked on. I mean..."You'd think they would at least consider the small percentage of their money that indirectly supports Sugiyama's loathsome politics"? That's saying that by buying these things, you're supporting the denial of the Nanking Massacre. He's not directly calling people who buy these games "terrible", but he sure is coming close to it, isn't he?

He's not dissing the games, he's dissing everyone who's ever bought something Sugiyama has ever been involved with. He does that, and then ends it at that, leaving readers with no sensible solution beyond...not buying these games to avoid having anything to do with it.

I'm not a "threatened" fan or whatever, I'm just disappointed with the way he wrote this.
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Shippoyasha



Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 459
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:43 pm Reply with quote
Ralifar wrote:
I don't really get why you're getting so bent out of shape by Sugiyama. The truth about many of Japan's less than desirable actions aren't really common knowledge in Japan. Sugiyama isn't a lone wolf spouting propaganda. This is what was taught in schools until recently. The textbooks are still somewhat messed up. They've only recently begun a reform of the many fallacies of Japan's past that they teach. My friend has been teaching English in Japanese schools for the past 5 years. She told me a story about one of her students coming up to her upset after she saw the movie Pearl Harbor because of the way it portrayed the Japanese as attacking America first and starting it. I've been to the Peace Memorial Museum in Hiroshima. What's written in English isn't the same thing as what's written in Japanese right next to it. Of course, in the long run, history will always be written by the winning side regardless of what actually happened. Razz


I honestly couldn't care less about the reasoning. Ignorance truly is a sin, especially for something so tragic that happened as to an entire nation trying to enslave/murder millions. That is something that is simply inexcusable to try to forget. What if Americans started to say 'oh, we didn't kill any Indians or commit anti-Indian massacres'? That would be about the same thing. And of course, the Japanese have an even further distance from them systematically slaughtering the Ainu in their ancient past (sorta like their version of the native Americans).

I mean, I'm still a Japan fan and I actually like the Japanese quite a bit as a modern society. But I know some Chinese, Korean friends in the past who were DIRECTLY touched by all these atrocities. Even stories of their birthplace of their parents and lineage being put out of whack because the Japanese were clamping down militarily.

I guess it's really not just about Sugiyama (though I have lost a lot of respect from him over the years. I just can't bring myself to say I'm a real fan of him nowadays), but the general attitude in that Japan just can't seem to wrangle this topic. Germany has long since come to terms with it. Japan didn't.
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Shippoyasha



Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 459
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:44 pm Reply with quote
Ralifar wrote:
I don't really get why you're getting so bent out of shape by Sugiyama. The truth about many of Japan's less than desirable actions aren't really common knowledge in Japan. Sugiyama isn't a lone wolf spouting propaganda. This is what was taught in schools until recently. The textbooks are still somewhat messed up. They've only recently begun a reform of the many fallacies of Japan's past that they teach. My friend has been teaching English in Japanese schools for the past 5 years. She told me a story about one of her students coming up to her upset after she saw the movie Pearl Harbor because of the way it portrayed the Japanese as attacking America first and starting it. I've been to the Peace Memorial Museum in Hiroshima. What's written in English isn't the same thing as what's written in Japanese right next to it. Of course, in the long run, history will always be written by the winning side regardless of what actually happened. Razz


I honestly couldn't care less about the reasoning. Ignorance truly is a sin, especially for something so tragic that happened as to an entire nation trying to enslave/murder millions. That is something that is simply inexcusable to try to forget. What if Americans started to say 'oh, we didn't kill any Indians or commit anti-Indian massacres'? That would be about the same thing. And of course, the Japanese have an even further distance from them systematically slaughtering the Ainu in their ancient past (sorta like their version of the native Americans). As for kids learning things differently, I wouldn't blame the kids either, but for the government and other authorities whitewashing things. It's the same crap as Iran saying the Holocaust didn't happen. Iranian, American, Japanese, whatever. Nationalities should not play any role when it comes down to the sin of ignorance. That said, I'm making it sound a lot harsher than it really is. I'm sure Americans don't get taught every bad thing it did to Indians either, though we simply don't ignore the problem now.

I mean, I'm still a Japan fan and I actually like the Japanese quite a bit as a modern society. But I know some Chinese, Korean friends in the past who were DIRECTLY touched by all these atrocities. Even stories of their birthplace of their parents and lineage being put out of whack because the Japanese were clamping down militarily.

I guess it's really not just about Sugiyama (though I have lost a lot of respect from him over the years. I just can't bring myself to say I'm a real fan of him nowadays), but the general attitude in that Japan just can't seem to wrangle this topic. Germany has long since come to terms with it. Japan didn't.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:45 pm Reply with quote
Seriously, even if fans did boycott DQ-the only ones who'd be hurt would be people who hate mediocre RPGs with overuse of frequent cut-scenes, since that kind of title is more popular in the States than DQ, anyway. And the fact that Atlus is getting into other types of games like Trauma Center really shows how tough it is for that genre to make money here, even without DQ. Hell, Working Designs was doing that kind of thing long before Atlus; and it no longer exists, in spite of the genre being more popular than when the company started! So I think Todd should try to appeal more to the suits at SQ'Enix than to the rest of us, since he's just preaching to the choir here.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:06 pm Reply with quote
Never was much of a Tekkaman Blade fan but, all the same, that game's an interesting curiosity. I always looked at all those anime-inspired SNES games with wonder, back in the day, but only had a chance to play a few...none of which were ever very good in the long run.

This also reminds me, on a very different note, that I need to find the time to go back and finish one of the Melty Blood games already. Laughing

gatotsu911 wrote:

And more importantly, I'm glad to find that SOMEBODY else is disturbed by the blatant nationalism/xenophobia of Code Geass.

I would in fact be equally disturbed if that wasn't a case of missing the entire point. Or one of them, in any case. Hell, I could even argue that the show may actually be interpreted as a veiled criticism of Japanese nationalism, if you really want to give some thought to it. Which isn't likely, and that probably isn't too healthy either, but hey...perhaps the easy way out is to say that the show is too crazy to qualify as either. Laughing

That aside, I didn't know that about Mr. Sugiyama and his opinions about actual WWII events, which is a far more serious and self-evident subject. That might not make me think less of his as a professional, but it certainly makes me think less of him as a person.
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