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Astro Toy with Rob Bricken - Queen's Blade Nanael


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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:26 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
There is nothing "classy" in this Nanael doll here. You have a figure here where you choose to expose her and gawk at her as a sexual object, and looking at a woman as a sexual object is demeaning. It's not in any way classy or empowering, and is actually a bit disturbing to me.
Thank you for your sense and sensibility, I couldn't have say so better myself.

I've been dating steady for 3 years, this is my 5th girlfriend and I really want to treat her right. I can understand if she wants to "empower" her sexual fantasy with me exclusively so. But going about like that publicly is a complete different story and a new level of weird altogether. So why's any different with an "art piece" that's not even meant to be an art?
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16462
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:44 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
littlegreenwolf wrote:
LOOK! BOOBS!


Yeah, pretty much. But that is exactly why we buy them and why they're made. Hell, you want sexuality objectivity to a whole new level?

http://www.toyslogic.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=cattleya

Only one character in the series is more stacked, and no figure of her yet, unfortunately.

Not all of us. Several of my figures have removable clothing items to display breasts/nipple or thongs/panties. I display my figures clothed. For one thing if I want to see naked breasts it's called a gf. They're much more appealing and lifelike heh. Secondly, I find it a waste of money. I mean spending all that money on a PVC figure just to display it nude? The outtfit is part of the price tag to me. Displaying it without it is to me the same as wasting money. I like to get what i paid for.

I have to say I agree with littlewolf. I mean if you bought the figure and it was nude to begin with then displaying it as such would just be what you're supposed to do. Or as she mentioned if it could have different outfits which I have in fact seen with some PVC figures. Another example I think would be figured based from Ero games or Hentai series. i mean displaying them without clothes.....hardly any worse then what you just watched or made them do in the game. Plus I would ask why do the figures have to be able to be seen nude or half nude? I mean aren't they good enough as is or do people really just only buy them for that purpose? That question was half rhetorical btw. I would say though appreciating a woman's, or women in general, figure (all parts) is not objectifying her. As long of course as you want to and look at her through a sense of appreciation and not just as a sexual toy or piece of meat. There is a distinction.


Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Quark



Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 709
Location: British Columbia, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:45 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Sorry, just snipping this for brievity


Hmm..your point about figures that already come nude vs. figures that invite the owner of said figure to remove the clothing is interesting. The thought that maybe somebody is getting a little thrill just from taking her clothes off is something to consider, and does give your side of the debate over these figures a lot more leverage.
At the same time, though, I still can't totally agree with you and Vash Fanatic. Maybe the problem is that I'm not really viewing them in a sexual manner. To me, the point of her having removable clothes is to give the option to either have her wearing the dress, or to simply not. But again, it never occured to me that maybe that's one of the 'perks' of this figure - getting the thrill of removing a girls clothing, even if she is an inanimate piece of plastic.
I apologize for not being able to explain my side of this very well. This is more a gut thing with me. Certain things set off my feminist radar, and this...well, it just doesn't. If we were having a discussion on real-life pornography however...
Just so we're clear though, I do definitely respect your opinion, even though I may disagree with it a bit. I just wanted to add a voice from the straight female fans who enjoy fanservice and nudity from their anime girls.

Sorry...one more edit. Little Green Wolf, I'm curious if it would be considered less icky if she came already nude, with the sun dress as an accessory. Meaning, instead of taking her clothes off, you'd instead have the option of covering her up?
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:25 am Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
I've been dating steady for 3 years, this is my 5th girlfriend and I really want to treat her right.

Oh my word. Another one of DomFortress's stories about him and his girlfriend. I don't even come to the forums that often and I've seen this more times than I would have cared to.
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1913
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:07 am Reply with quote
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
I've been dating steady for 3 years, this is my 5th girlfriend and I really want to treat her right.

Oh my word. Another one of DomFortress's stories about him and his girlfriend. I don't even come to the forums that often and I've seen this more times than I would have cared to.
Oh yeah,his life story.I remember that.

Movin on.

Cool figure,I like the design of Menace best.The Egyptian babe with the perverted staff.She's the one with extreme underboob. Laughing
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4794
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:55 am Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
littlegreenwolf wrote:
There is nothing "classy" in this Nanael doll here.

Mind the pose and mannerism for just a moment.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
and looking at a woman as a sexual object is demeaning.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
Gil Elvgren is one of my favorite North American illustrators

Is it just me or do these two statements contradict themselves?

Hypocrisy strikes again!

I certainly hope you take the time to rectify the confusion you placed upon me, lgw.


I think the only one who can help you with your confusion here is yourself and by re-reading my post VERY SLOWLY so that you don't skip over sentences and only read ones that stand out to you. There was nothing hypocritical in my statement of stating the Gil Elvgren is one of my favorite illustrators, it just requires reading comprehension on your part.

Quark wrote:
This is more a gut thing with me. Certain things set off my feminist radar, and this...well, it just doesn't. If we were having a discussion on real-life pornography however...
Just so we're clear though, I do definitely respect your opinion, even though I may disagree with it a bit. I just wanted to add a voice from the straight female fans who enjoy fanservice and nudity from their anime girls.

Sorry...one more edit. Little Green Wolf, I'm curious if it would be considered less icky if she came already nude, with the sun dress as an accessory. Meaning, instead of taking her clothes off, you'd instead have the option of covering her up?


No problem. I don't expect people to see it the same way as me, and am not surprised when people such as walw6pK4Alo prove my point. My opinions on the subject are constantly evolving as I try to understand men more and what exactly my opinion of feminism is. Like I said earlier I like the figure at first glance, especially the detail, and I have no problem with people who collect it, or the fact that it has been highlighted in the Astro Toy column. I just have a problem with the need to take off her clothes.

To answer your question, probably not. If I saw her, nude in a display in a shop or a con I'd just pass over her, dismissing her as nothing special outside of something a fanboy would want because there is nothing about her pose/composition, or face, or who she is appeals to me, especially if I saw something like THIS figure right next to her, which would leave me going "Ooo, pretty~" because there's much I can appreciate on this one with the standards I judge by.

If I saw Nanael had clothes to go along with her then I'd be interested as to why the clothes weren't on her to begin with and wonder why the heck someone would want to take her clothes off once seeing how nice they looked on her, which would eventually lead me back to what I don't like about the figure.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:16 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
There was nothing hypocritical in my statement [when I said] "You have a figure here where you choose to expose her and gawk at her as a sexual object, and looking at a woman as a sexual object is demeaning." while stating "Gil Elvgren is one of my favorite illustrators".




Today's lesson in hypocrisy brought to you by Hooked on Phonics, for those who really have an issue with reading comprehension.

Now, please step off the soapbox. Your case is lost.
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Lonecow



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 52
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:21 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
littlegreenwolf wrote:
There was nothing hypocritical in my statement [when I said] "You have a figure here where you choose to expose her and gawk at her as a sexual object, and looking at a woman as a sexual object is demeaning." while stating "Gil Elvgren is one of my favorite illustrators".




Today's lesson in hypocrisy brought to you by Hooked on Phonics, for those who really have an issue with reading comprehension.

Now, please step off the soapbox. You're case is lost.


Shirow Masamune is also largely inspired by these same artists. As he has said on many occasions.

This has just gotten silly at this point.
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4794
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:56 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
littlegreenwolf wrote:
There was nothing hypocritical in my statement [when I said] "You have a figure here where you choose to expose her and gawk at her as a sexual object, and looking at a woman as a sexual object is demeaning." while stating "Gil Elvgren is one of my favorite illustrators".




Today's lesson in hypocrisy brought to you by Hooked on Phonics, for those who really have an issue with reading comprehension.

Now, please step off the soapbox. Your case is lost.


I don't see it as that when I've stated what my problems are. I don't have a problem with pin-ups as a whole. I have a problem with pin-ups when they depict women in demeaning stereotypes. Awomen in her underwear is not something I find demeaning, and I don't think we should go around being conservatively dressed, or even ashamed of our bodies.

All I see from the picture you posted is a work by Gil Elvgren that can be appreciated by anyone who has an eye for art. I like Gil Elvgren for his painting style, color use, humorous situations, and for his creativity in creating hundreds, if not thousands of poses that aren't the same, even if the subject is similar. I have no problem with an artist who can bring out the curves of the human body as brilliantly as Gil Elvgren does. His women are gorgeous, I don't have a problem with them.

What YOU or another man sees here is another matter. Some can appreciate what I appreciate, others, like oh let's say an good ole WW2 soldier out in the trenches could look at it and be reminded of the girl he loves back home, wishing he could talk to her on the telephone, and other guys could be thinking about how much they'd just like to tap that and nothing more. That last mindset is the problem, not the art. Objectifying women is something a person thinks. I don't have a problem with nude Nanael, I have a problem that she's an object on display that is designed to bring focus on the breasts. That is demeaning.

Go look up what the forum defines as a soapbox now. You asked for clarification, I'm explaining it to you. If you can't handle an actual discussion on the matter in an intelligent way, quit bringing it up.
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DPX



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:02 pm Reply with quote
wow, so you were serious about figures being demeaning...

Well, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions, no matter how...extreme... they may be.

Have you guys seen the Risty one, though? Looks nice, now all we need in irma
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:17 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
I have a problem with pin-ups when they depict women in demeaning stereotypes.

There you go again, even after I gave you a damn image doing exactly what you are against.

Quote:
What YOU or another man sees here is another matter.

Quite frankly, this is why I posted. I've read the replies in this thread, but between you and DomFortress, I felt I had to justify myself because you're pushing ignorant views on people who see collecting PVC figures as "demeaning".

I don't think I misinterpreted this remark by you, as you just said it again above.

If you think this is why a figure like Nanael exists, then you're flat out wrong. It is art despite your belief.

Quote:
I have a problem that she's an object on display that is designed to bring focus on the breasts. That is demeaning.

This is where I fault your words, lgw. Show me how the image above doesn't do the same thing. You can't. It's impossible.

So why are you applying this definition to the figure? It makes no sense to me.

Quote:
If you can't handle an actual discussion on the matter in an intelligent way, quit bringing it up.

I'm quite fine at handling a discussion. I'm still waiting for your reasoning behind the rhetoric you're trying to sling between two types of medium by calling one art and the other a sex toy.

As a collector, I find this rather insulting to the point I should debate your points.

Now I'm going to throw something out there to you:


If your eyes didn't melt, care to share your thoughts on this figure? I'll let you go first. Because if you think I bought it because it's "sexy", then we'll continue our discussion on why your assessment is inaccurate and why you shouldn't label us as "perverted plastic figure collectors to look at boobs".
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Lonecow



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 52
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:18 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:



[/quote]

I have a problem that she's an object on display that is designed to bring focus on the breasts. That is demeaning.
[/quote]

Just stop. You are just embarrassing yourself at this point.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:15 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
The only reason you have here to remove her clothes is to "appreciate" her breasts.

That is objectifying a woman for her breasts. Claim you appreciate the curves of a woman's body all you want, in a sense you do, but all you have is an expensive doll with the soul purpose of showing you fake breasts any time you want. Like I mentioned earlier the nudity doesn't bug me about this figure. If you take a nude to semi-nude figure from anything else, you can appreciate her nudity as part of the composition as a whole. With this figure your attention is drawn away from the figure as a whole, and drawn to the feature of LOOK! BOOBS!

There is nothing "classy" in this Nanael doll here. You have a figure here where you choose to expose her and gawk at her as a sexual object, and looking at a woman as a sexual object is demeaning. It's not in any way classy or empowering, and is actually a bit disturbing to me.

There's nothing wrong or demeaning about any of that. You are conflating the ability to treat a person with respect, and a recognition of equal rights with a recognition of sexual desire. As if sensuality can only be used in some kind of artistic way, when in fact, sex is sex. It's the same urge, the same fundamental emotion no matter the context. The morality arguments basically just tries to attach a lot pretension to that same emotion.

It's absolutely possible (and very much occurs) to be compassionate, to be fair, to be kind, to demand equal treatment and equal rights for women, while at the same time recognizing "nice boobs".

Speaking of equality, there's a sort of hypocrisy going on here. Practically all men would take absolutely no offense at the many girls who went to see the movie 300 just for the beefcake display, which was very evident looking at related fangirl forums. Likewise, while a lot the content may gross out most straight guys, I have not heard anyone complain that the hard core yaoi stuff is demeaning to men in any way (as in "oh no, girls are now objectifying men!")
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DomFortress



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 751
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:53 pm Reply with quote
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
I've been dating steady for 3 years, this is my 5th girlfriend and I really want to treat her right.

Oh my word. Another one of DomFortress's stories about him and his girlfriend. I don't even come to the forums that often and I've seen this more times than I would have cared to.
And once again, someone completely missed the point. And to think I was trying to make my anime figurine preference clear by establishing some personal relevance with the rest of my post. Which obviously you've overlooked due to your lack of critical literacy.

When a girl wants to empower her sexuality and femininity, that's one way to consider that she wants to draw attention onto herself because it makes her feel good about being sexy and feminine, and that's empowering her self-esteem. Now can you see why a girl would do what she does in order to gain the attention and appreciation from the one she wants exclusively? Because she wants that person to know that her attention is on him, and she appreciates for what he's doing. And I'll be a fool 5 times over if I didn't get that by now.

That being said, just why would someone wants to buy a toy figurine, with the option of removing its outer casing to revel plastic boobies is therefore beyond me.
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Lonecow



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 52
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:14 pm Reply with quote
DomFortress wrote:
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
I've been dating steady for 3 years, this is my 5th girlfriend and I really want to treat her right.

Oh my word. Another one of DomFortress's stories about him and his girlfriend. I don't even come to the forums that often and I've seen this more times than I would have cared to.
And once again, someone completely missed the point. And to think I was trying to make my anime figurine preference clear by establishing some personal relevance with the rest of my post. Which obviously you've overlooked due to your lack of critical literacy.

When a girl wants to empower her sexuality and femininity, that's one way to consider that she wants to draw attention onto herself because it makes her feel good about being sexy and feminine, and that's empowering her self-esteem. Now can you see why a girl would do what she does in order to gain the attention and appreciation from the one she wants exclusively? Because she wants that person to know that her attention is on him, and she appreciates for what he's doing. And I'll be a fool 5 times over if I didn't get that by now.

That being said, just why would someone wants to buy a toy figurine, with the option of removing its outer casing to revel plastic boobies is therefore beyond me.


Well my WIFE knew what she was getting into when she married me as I had figures all over the place, and because she understands it is part of my hobby, she doesn't care. She isn't otaku and doesn't actually like any of that stuff, but I don't try to force her to be someone else and she doesn't try to force me.

When you find someone like that, then talk to me, but right now you just sound like a little kid who finally got a girlfriend and is trying to compromise who he is to keep the girl.

(For the record I don't have any nude female figures despite I've been arguing in their favor this entire time. Personally it isn't for me, but I have no problem with it and it isn't some negative reflection of the person who displays them. I do however have quite a few Asuka's in bathing suits.)
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