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ANNCast - Sheh's All That


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KoujiTamino



Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 163
Location: Tacoma, WA, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:59 pm Reply with quote
kikiyo2 wrote:


That's not true at all. It's merchandising that makes the money for anime. For the American companies, they might rely on DVD sales, but the actual anime industry itself will just be fine without DVD sales.


Uh huh. What about the series that have little to no merchandising? There are plenty of highly acclaimed works that don't have tons of merchandising to whore out. While yes, there is a greater emphasis on merchandising now, that's only because of more recent trends, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

And really? The industry would be fine without home video sales entirely? Somehow I doubt that, especially with the gimmick of touching up the series for the home video release and 'DVD only' episodes. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of the power of merchandising and the Japanese otaku lifestyle, but don't be so quick to just wave off DVD and Blu-Ray.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1684
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:01 pm Reply with quote
kikiyo2 wrote:
There's not one company that has put out any subbed digital files that even touch the quality found on fansubs? So why should I support their half-assedness?


Because if they give you what you are asking for, they would have to be retarded.

If they release it download-to-own with DRM, you will complain about the DRM and not buy it.

If they release it without the DRM, it'd be up on Bittorrent within seconds and maybe 5 people would pay money for something they can get for free from another site. Within a few hours it would be streaming on all the crappy illegal streaming sites. Basically the same scenario we have now with fansubs, except now they had to pay production costs on the pirated version.

You want what you want, but it's unreasonable to expect them to comply with something that would clearly backfire on them in every conceivable way.

Licensors know this, and are not entertaining the idea of download-to-own unless someone figures out a way that wouldn't result in wholesale piracy one way or another. I don't blame them.

Quote:
Are these "free riders" also still not fans? Maybe they wouldn't be "leeches" if the industry would just give them what they want.


Maybe you would pay, maybe you think you would pay now but when presented with the opportunity would find another way to continue justifying your piracy. I'm telling you right now, most will not pay money for something they can easily get for free.

In any event, leeches may enjoy your product, but at the end of the day if they aren't paying for it, they might as well not exist. They're not part of an ecosystem that allows you to continue to make your product, so their input is unimportant at the present time. The challenge is to find a way to make people who enjoy the product generate income again, somehow, and reintroduce them to an ecosystem that works. It's a lot harder now that nobody's used to paying money for content. But everyone in the business is working very hard to find a sustainable solution. Only at that point, when fans are contributing again, will they have a voice in the process again.

That responsibility to build a new ecosystem ultimately lies with the industry, but if fans want a voice they're going to have to participate and engage with them. The bizarre sense of resentment and antagonism we get from fans like yourself is something that isn't helpful to anyone. Least of all, to the fans... leeches or otherwise.

Quote:
That's not true at all. It's merchandising that makes the money for anime. For the American companies, they might rely on DVD sales, but the actual anime industry itself will just be fine without DVD sales.

True for a small handful of shows (mostly Shonen Jump shows and its ilk). Absurdly untrue for 80%+ of anime out there. Most anime companies I know are really really scared right now, many have laid off people. It's not just Gonzo that's hurting, everyone is. Either someone has told you something wrong, or you're making things up.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:20 pm Reply with quote
So how has America paid for free television for the past 57 years? and radio before that? Wink
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Cosplaybunny



Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 224
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:29 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
So how has America paid for free television for the past 57 years? and radio before that? Wink


By watching/listening to commercials or paying for upgraded cable or satellite television services. But I don't see how that's relevant to an industry that isn't exactly aired at prime time in Japan or here in the states, if at all.
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 1260
Location: Williamsburg, VA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:40 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
So how has America paid for free television for the past 57 years? and radio before that? Wink


Aside from local broadcasting channels, TV is not free. When you pay for cable, you are actually paying licensing fees your local cable company has to pay in order to broadcast channels and the programming on them. And of course, both TV and radio are dependant on ad revenue to keep both programming on the air and channels operating. Which companies can only afford when people purchase their products. So Americans pay for TV, often without realizing it.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:04 pm Reply with quote
Cosplaybunny wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
So how has America paid for free television for the past 57 years? and radio before that? Wink


By watching/listening to commercials or paying for upgraded cable or satellite television services. But I don't see how that's relevant to an industry that isn't exactly aired at prime time in Japan or here in the states, if at all.
Bingo! Is not TV and radio a 24/7 medium? and isn't the internet not the same? Besides that is irrelant in these internet broadband download-to-watch-later dominant times. Do you think all Japanese otaku stay up all night to watch their faviourite moe/lolicom? The Japanese want to, no, have to make the internet work for them, rather than trying to work against it, and are they not doing that right now? The fansubbers won't buy legal products for fear of it being DMRed. The companies won't lift DMRs from their products for fear of very few buying it and piracy. It seems we are all frozen in the headlights and no one wants to budge. I think Franklin was right when he said "the only thing we have to fear is, fear itself." It can not be a global economy if it's restricted to just one, or two regions. The 80's and 90's are history. The anime industry has to stop doing business like it's the 80's and 90's. or it will be history as well, and there is no reason dubs can not be a part of that. Wink


Last edited by Mohawk52 on Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kingakuzutto



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:05 pm Reply with quote
I never really buy a lot of anime (that's because I'm used to watching them on TV), but I am a fan of dubs. But there's never a complete variety of cast in English dubs (a great example is Ouran High School Host Club I mean let's be honest. Do we really need to see Vic Mignogna in every anme? I blame his fan girls, but he did do a good job as Tamaki, but still. Seriously he's like Funimation's Dan Green before that it was Christopher Sabat. Actually Sabat is more like FUNi's Frank Welker.) What I liked about Higurashi's dub was that they had a small variety in cast. But, I rather dubs than subs most of the time.
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Cosplaybunny



Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 224
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:27 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Cosplaybunny wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
So how has America paid for free television for the past 57 years? and radio before that? Wink


By watching/listening to commercials or paying for upgraded cable or satellite television services. But I don't see how that's relevant to an industry that isn't exactly aired at prime time in Japan or here in the states, if at all.
Bingo! Is not TV and radio a 24/7 medium? and isn't the internet not the same? Besides that is irrelant in these internet broadband download-to-watch-later dominant times. Do you think all Japanese otaku stay up all night to watch their faviourite moe/lolicom? The Japanese want to, no, have to make the internet work for them, rather than trying to work against it, and are they not doing that right now? The fansubbers won't buy legal products for fear of it being DMRed. The companies won't lift DMRs from their products for fear of very few buying it and piracy. It seems we are all frozen in the headlights and no one wants to budge. I think Franklin was right when he said "the only thing we have to fear is, fear itself." It can not be a global economy if it's restricted to just one, or two regions. The 80's and 90's are history. The anime industry has to stop doing business like it's the 80's and 90's. or it will be history as well, and there is no reason dubs can not be a part of that. Wink


I think most people agree that the internet needs to be taken advantage of by the Japanese companies. I don't think anyone is arguing that selling DVDs needs to be the core of the market. However, the ground always consistently shifts with all of these new requests. Globalization and new markets always require the companies to adapt, but fansubbing remains sacrosanct. The fact that fansubbers are no longer bringing 30th generation VHS tapes to meetups and are basically giving away free product never seems to come up. If times have changed, they have changed for all parties.

It also makes logistical sense to support the companies now who are capable of trying to bring these changes into the market than driving them out of business and hoping new companies will appear and magically grant all wishes.

Additionally, there is one thing I've always wondered. If this is really about companies not giving the fans what they want and not about just demanding free product, how many fansub watchers have actually registered their copies of BitTorrent? My guess is very few. How exactly is BitTorrent not meeting your needs?
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Youkai Warrior



Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 505
Location: Sarayashiki
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:47 pm Reply with quote
I buy all of my anime on DVD. I like both dub and subbed, but I agree that anime still needs to be dubbed. Dubbed anime is what introduced many to anime. If anime becomes sub only, it will become even more of a niche. If you love anime, you will support it by buying anime on DVD. Not every single anime, (I have a small but special collection), but if there is an anime you like, an anime you love, BUY IT. Renting counts as support too.
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Quark



Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 710
Location: British Columbia, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Cosplaybunny wrote:

Additionally, there is one thing I've always wondered. If this is really about companies not giving the fans what they want and not about just demanding free product, how many fansub watchers have actually registered their copies of BitTorrent? My guess is very few. How exactly is BitTorrent not meeting your needs?


It's about these people being cheap, plain and simple. I've got a friend who is a 'free rider' but at the very least, he doesn't come up with all these ridiculous excuses for not paying for anime. He simply says 'I'm too cheap' and leaves it at that. He bugs me for buying DVDs, and I bug him for being a free loader, and then try and push my DVDs on him instead of him watching fansubs.
Honestly, it's frustrating hearing all these people complaining about companies not giving them what they want, and demanding their needs to be met when they don't pay for anything, and most likely, will not pay for anything even the companies did give them what they want. Why can't you guys just cut the crap, and admit that it's because you're too cheap to pay for your hobby?
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larinon



Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Posts: 992
Location: Midland, TX
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:58 pm Reply with quote
Here's a link to the podcast on itunes. I clicked the link provided in the post and it just took me to the rss page.
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KoujiTamino



Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 163
Location: Tacoma, WA, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:18 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
The anime industry has to stop doing business like it's the 80's and 90's. or it will be history as well, and there is no reason dubs can not be a part of that. Wink


How about the fact that getting rid of dubs completely will alienate an entire community and fanbase built up over the past 2-3 decades? Is that enough reason for you?
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escahime65



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Iowa
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:36 pm Reply with quote
What a coincidence that you guys mentioned the Slam Dunk dvds released so long ago. I just bought the 4 dvds that were released used at a convention last weekend. I knew I had to buy them right away because I had never even seen them available before. I love that show even if the subtitles are kind of iffy on quality (on the R1 dvds). I know I can watch it for free streaming online but I still like to have that physical dvd in my hand. Talk about a rare find!

Also, I'm with Zac; to hell with pie! Gimme my cake!
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mglittlerobin



Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 1071
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:51 pm Reply with quote
It bothers me that all the people who download fansubs and don't buy anything proclaim they are the biggest "fans" of anime, as if their freeloading has somehow "helped" the anime industry get popular. The only industry they support is their ISP and the portable hard drive industry.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1684
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:53 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Bingo! Is not TV and radio a 24/7 medium? and isn't the internet not the same? Besides that is irrelant in these internet broadband download-to-watch-later dominant times. Do you think all Japanese otaku stay up all night to watch their faviourite moe/lolicom? The Japanese want to, no, have to make the internet work for them, rather than trying to work against it, and are they not doing that right now?


Well, that's just the problem. The ad supported model doesn't hypothetically need to make back the revenue lost from TV sources (there never really was much to begin with in this country), it needs to make back the revenue lost from the decline of DVD sales. Right now, ads from streaming don't pay very much at all; companies make more money selling 10 DVDs than getting 1,000 streams. I do think streaming is the future of anime (and while nothing is currently the quality of a 720p fansub, I think our subscriber streams are about 480p fansub quality). It's just a matter of how we can make it work, and how soon.

Quote:
The fansubbers won't buy legal products for fear of it being DMRed.


That might be why many hardcore otaku won't buy download-to-own, but it sure doesn't get them off the hook for DVDs. But the rationale doesn't matter. Some people will find any excuse to not pay money. It's pointless to argue with defense mechanisms.

Quote:
The anime industry has to stop doing business like it's the 80's and 90's. or it will be history as well, and there is no reason dubs can not be a part of that. Wink


It sure is easy to SAY that. Now try and find a business model that works!
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