Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Shoujo Fans in Fandom
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zawa113
 Posts: 7357 |
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True enough quote, when I was younger I was more along these lines (not that I'm not still young, but I mean back when I first started getting into anime around the age of 12-14) and I more or less continued this until I saw Princess Tutu almost two years ago, which changed my entire perception about shojo (and in particular magical girl) can be done. One of my friends has always been into shojo (and a tad of yaoi) far more than I, but even though I never once accused her of being a raging fangirl (I still don't think she is), I'd always thought I'd see myself as one if I ever got into shojo, even if it was just 1 series. Now that I've read/watched a good amount more shojo/josei stories and put a few of them into my top 10 favorite series, I'm quite relieved that I don't see myself in that view. I'll admit that most shojo aren't my cup of tea, but you can't fault me for not trying them out either. And then there are some which are just garbage, but that's just as true of shonen and seinen. Even as I went on about Princess Tutu to other people (I've gotten a few guys to check it out too, despite the name of the show, I find that men and women both tend to really like this one, but this one guy still insists that it's garbage because of the demographic, it infuriates me to no end), no one seems to have reacted to me in a negative fangirl type way. I'm actually starting to think fangirls are kinda rare and it's just a few extreme ones that make it incredibly easy to just stereotype an entire group, but that's true with most things. The few that you do encounter will be incredibly difficult to not kill, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. |
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RabbitRevolution
 Posts: 218 |
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If you equate feminism with a sense of victimization (and I repeat, if), then the feminism (or whatever you want to call it) in the article is rather overbearing. It's rather like asking a racial minority who is living in a homogenous community if they feel discriminated against, and they answer "No." But then you ask, "Are you sure, because yada, yada yada...." Trying to make someone victimized when they don't feel so is just tiresome. I feel like Sara was the only one who really went against this viewpoint. Still, I do think this is an important issue to discuss, and I applaud Bamboo for continually serving as a sort of voice of reason in these columns. |
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Quark
 Posts: 710 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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I agree with you that there was a tone of victimization in the article, especially when they were discussing how female fans are 'shunned' in comic stores by the guys working there. Just with my personal experience, I've never found this to be true. As long as I don't act too obnoxious with my friends, the guys working there are friendly, and have sometimes struck up conversations with me about what I've bought. I've never had this feeling of guys disregarding my nerdism simply because I'm a girl. I chat with guys (and girls) on a daily basis about books, movies, anime, music, or what have you, and never once has it crossed my mind that they don't take me seriously because of my gender. We're simply fans, who happen to enjoy the same things. But this also might be because I don't subscribe to the "Them Vs. Us" brand of feminism nor do I buy the so-called 'War of the Sexes'. I truly believe that the genders are equal, and the only thing interfering with that is stereotypes and peoples preconceived notions. |
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liannesentar
Posts: 29 |
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Please, please, please stop using "feminism" as a dirty word. You're hurting many, many people when you do that. I think maybe we need to link to http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/.
So you're saying that you've had a "neutral" experience, aka people in your comic store weren't treated poorly simply because of their gender. That's great - that's the way things should be. But because someone else did (Brigid had an involved story about that) and felt the need to talk about it because it was likely not an isolated experience, the article has a tone of victimization? We can't fight discrimination if we don't talk about it. If someone talks about being discriminated against by a particular group (woman by man, for example), that doesn't mean she thinks all men are discriminating against her and she's accusing all men of sexism. Making that assumption - that one person stands for all of his/her gender, race, disability orientation, etc. and thus accusing one of something is akin to accusing ALL of them is something - is usually the exact same kind of mindset that led to her being discriminated against in the first place. Getting defensive when no one has accused you or your particular comic store of something isn't helping anyone, and usually actively hurts the discussion. Please don't try to put down or silence people who have been discriminated against. We need to talk about these things, especially in a column that was specifically designed to let a particular group talk about issues pertaining to their particular group (Chicks on Anime). |
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Quark
Posts: 710 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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I apologize if I came across sounding like I was trying to put Brigid and the others down, or trying to silence them. Honestly, that wasn't my intent. I do agree with you that cases of discrimination should be talked about, and you're right, Bridget did have a story of being treated poorly in the particular store she was at, so it was insensitive on my part to just label that as 'feminist victimization'. I guess I get so gung-ho in my 'We're all equals' stance that I do forget that there are people who treat the opposite sex like crap, simply because of their gender. In addition to that, I'm so used to hearing some women saying things like "All men can't be trusted" or "Men only think about one thing" Again, like you said, that's an example of some, not all, but I jumped to conclusions and was seeing things that weren't there. So Brigid, and the other women in the article, again, I'm really sorry for sounding insensitive towards your experiences. |
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liannesentar
Posts: 29 |
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Your retraction was extremely mature. Thank you. When I was younger, I felt similarly to how you mentioned - that because I didn't usually suffer from overt sexual discrimination and because many women (and men) I knew wrote off all boys as "stupid and oversexed" (or whatever), that perhaps people were overreacting to the imbalance of power of men over women. But I now know that we have a subtle, systemic problem with sexism and even misogyny in our culture, and it's only when I let people with experiences different from mine speak that I realize feminism still has a long way to take us. The patriarchy hurts us all, women and men alike. And now I'll get off my soapbox. The fandom of Western comics has been particularly nasty toward fangirls lately, after that whole Twilight debacle. I'm really glad Chicks on Anime decided to talk about this now, especially with someone as intelligent and even-handed as Brigid. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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I know I''m probably going to be slammed and labelled insensitive myself, but quark was a little too apologetic. The comic- book store incident aside, I thought she had a point. The whole PC/victimization vibe that pervades Chicks on Anime rubs me the wrong way too. Yes, sexism exists;it needs to be discussed and dealt with. But most, if not all of us here, live in a relatively socially progressive society compared to some places. We forget that there are parts of the world where women can't vote, can't drive, can't go to school; can't do anything except stay home, clean house, and make babies. Women for whom being snubbed at a comic book store would be the least of their worries. So let's keep things in perspective, shall we?
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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Thanks for the link, wow, Casey, did you go out and kill the first born child of all the forum members or is there another reason they really don't like you? It's amazing that that one little paragraph at the end totally set off that flame war (and it amuses me that someone else mentioned Pluto in the comments on that page with the same view I had). |
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Jadress
 Posts: 807 Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy! |
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So just because other people on the planet have it harder, we should never talk about experiences of unfairness or discrimination (however minor they should be in comparison to THE WORST THING EVER)? While Chicks on Anime often does speak in generalizations (and in such a column where they're talking about broad topics, it's a little hard not too), many of the opinions they are expressing are real experiences many fans have had. I think it's a shame that no one can mention stories of discrimination without people saying that the column has a tone of victimization/PC-ness. As liannesentar eloquently put it, I feel that this is a silencing reaction. Have I ever been discriminated against at a comic book store? Yes. At a videogame store? I haven't. But I've read hundreds of personal anecdotes on gamer sites of girls who have. Just because it never happened to me personally doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and just because people talk about their experiences doesn't mean they are playing victim all the time. I think essentially saying "stop bitching, other people have it worse" isn't helpful in a discussion ABOUT personal opinions and experiences, which is exactly what CoA IS. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I find it interesting now the term fangirls is now being frowned upon in Geek culture, and now being picked on at conventions (I have yet to come across anyone trying to do this to me at a con). Maybe it's because I don't scream over crap and like yaoi, so by your definition I'm not a fangirl, but I've always thought of myself as one, and take a sort of geek pride in it. Why is being a fangirl seen as something negative, while being a fanboy is just accepted here? Is it just something people are associating with the Twilight and Anime fandom now? I find it odd especially with the last mainstream opinion I can recall a fangirl being Kirsten Bell's character in the movies Fanboys, and she was far from the screaming, yaoi fangirl you guys seem to be referring to. Yeah, not all fangirls look like her, but she shared a lot of the geek similarities I found in other fangirls outside of the screaming yaoi ones.
I'm not a twilight fangirl, but I'm a fangirl for many things which I'll happily gush over in conversation with for hours (Doctor Who, Lost, CLAMP, Neil Gaiman, Star Wars, etc), and well... I have yet to run into anyone outside a few people on this forum who found me being passionate about a specific fandom I like as something negative. Hell, most of the guys I run into think it's "hot" I can get into a debate on Star Wars vs Star Trek, or which Tarintino movie is the best. Am I supposed to stop calling myself a fangirl now? I like the term fangirl better than just plain Geek which just brings to mind some nerd wearing glasses. I think us girl fans need to try reclaiming it if Twilight is ruining for us. Ah, comic bookstores. The only bad comic book experience I've ever had at a comic book store is being stared at and then being hit on by creepy, smelly (and usually much older) guys. I just started buying comics online instead after a while. And I have no complaints over the discrimination points brought up by Chicks On Anime. They all have their different viewpoints on the matter, and I'm fine with the levels they discuss on. |
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Ktimene's Lover
 Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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Shoujo fans/female anime fans will have similar views to shounen/male anime fans: A view one has is potentially considered sexist to another. That is, differences among the sexes of fans can show how opinionated we are.
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PhoenixHeart
 Posts: 41 Location: Germany, Black-Forrest area |
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This was a really interesting article and as a open-minded male shoujo-reader maybe I can add a new perspective and share my experience. One thing I could really relate too - Bamboo mentioned how legitimate it has become for women to be interested in shounen and buy shounen manga, yet..
Now that really made me nod, as I feel that's a real problem - especially considering I'm 26 and still enjoy a good shoujo title, though I tend to josei/seinen nowadays. In order not to get weird looks, I order online - even if I would prefer to support local bookstores more. But if you're male, mid-20 and read "girly manga", you get "creep" written all over you - as much, if not more than your average moe-lover. In my mild androgyny I also face another weird situation: I've experienced the shift of female reading habits first hand - in the past I collected a few shoujo titles as Fullmoon wo Sagashite, Kare Kano, Fushigi Yuugi and CLAMP titles - back then I could really connect and exchange my thoughts with lots of girls about the titles. Connecting with boys was no priority, I admit - I had enough gamer friends, I never even considered them as potential fans. But over time shounen became huge for the ladies, with most I knew being all over the place for Naruto, Bleach, you-name-it. Suddenly I found myself enjoying shoujo more than an average girl my age, which was ironic and felt a bit awkward. Luckily I enjoyed a vast range of other genre too, including shounen titles as Kenshin - I even rediscovered the genre with FMA and from then on I was re-enabled to enjoy "male" titles nearly as much as a good shoujo. Today I enjoy anime and manga as a whole and as long as it's a neat story and/or really entertaining, I can enjoy. One thought remains though - as a romantic at heart, the core of my taste is characters with emotional depth, ambitions, ideals and drama deluxe, haha. Yet... I get the feeling the appreciation of classic "shoujo values" by girls is fading and also the importance of a relatable strong female heroine is nill, or worse - she could become a distraction of all the hot boys pummeling eachother. So in the end, I have a silly message: Ladies around the world, it's awesome that you aqquired such broad tastes to accept shounen in-your-face-action, but to those neglecting shoujo for it being too girly - give shoujo a fair chance, there's good stuff out there and it's a whole different take on storytelling. |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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You know, I think one of the reasons I've lost virtually all interests in Western comics (though I'll still watch the film versions) is because when I started getting heavily into anime/manga, I actually cared about the female characters. In Western comics, most of the women bore me. WW never did anything for me (in terms of both character and fanservice, though fanservice rarely interests me even though I'm a guy), most of the X-men women were written fairly-well back in the Claremont days but nowadays not so much (Storm entering a random romance with BP, JOSS WHEDON of all people giving the big finger to Shadowcat with a needlessly cruel act, etc. for example), very few of the TT girls ever felt interesting, etc. And this isn't mentioning the tons of heroes' girfriends/wives who seem to exist only to be "stuffed in the fridge" at the appropriate moment. Another important reason was the "manga = ONE writer" factor, so Berserk, Naruto, Fruits Basket, FMA, One Piece, etc. will probably never have a "One More Day" or "Poor Attempts to Shock You in this Latest Crisis Crossover" arc/wallbanger (not to say they don't have low points, but none of them have ever flat out infuriated me like certain comic arcs have).
Even in the anime/manga series that don't exactly handle the female characters that well, I still find them more appealing. And of course, the fact that a woman can actually be the lead character. Imagine Soul Eater being pitched to DC/Marvel. The executives would probably ask for Soul to be the fighter and Maka to be the weapon. If they were pitched Claymore, their reactions would probably be, "okay, the women need to be hotter, and more fanservice. And let's at least get a few kick-ass guys amongst the main cast". Okay, I'm stereotyping here, but that's really the vibe I started to get from Western comic reading after a while, so anime/manga was like a breath of fresh air. That, and there's a much wider variety. Oh sure, there are quite a few non-superhero comics, but good luck finding anyone else to talk to about them save a few hits like Sandman and Preacher. As for female fans' treatment by others, I've been fortunate enough to not encounter this problem. The vast majority of my fellow anime fan friends are guys, but the few girls among us do not get treated any differently. Admittedly, their interests stretch to almost all genres, but so do ours', so even if they liked only "girl-aimed" stuff, we'd still have something to talk about. Likewise, female fans/shojo fans of either gender don't get mistreated or ignored or anything like that at the forums I go to, or at the few cons I've attended. Heck, when me and my friends attended a shojo panel at a con last month, about half of the audience were guys, and most of them had seen/read at least a few shojo series. I also was thanked by the person running the panel when I told her NANA would soon be out on DVD (since it was one of her favorite anime, but she had not received news about the DVDs coming out), she was really happy to hear that. Also, we even brought up moe shows and whether anything about them appealed to women, and quite a few of the girls there liked a few of the shows of that genre, and I even mentioned Bamboo of this site liking the Key shows IIRC. |
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Ktimene's Lover
Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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doctordoom85 said:
For even guys, fanservice can be a turn off. Not necessarily for me. It doesn't really rub me the wrong way. |
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Odd_shapeshifter
Posts: 15 |
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I think we are forgetting one aspect, which is the annoying factor. For me that's the screaming, especially at conventions but I find the guys who don't ask before taking a picture (of who ever) just as annoying.
As for certain genres, I have problems with the ones who just stick to one and criticize all the other stuff just because it's not their genre, both fanboy and fangirl, without ever having experienced the other; as an example, there's this fangirl I know that sticks by: Gravitation is the best thing that has ever been made, but if you ask if she knows who Tezuka is or if she has seen some of Shirow's work you'll see those questions marks pop-up above her head, "Tezuka?, never heard of that, Shirow? Isn't that the color white in Japanese, my Gothic Lolita dress is white do you like it?" Then my face turns like this: 
She also has never seen NGE, GitS or Akira and doesn't want to because A. She doesn't like Gundam (she means mecha but anything resembling a robot is Gundam) B. She doesn't like bloody violence and shooting, because that gives her nightmares but Gravitation is the best animation ever made because the bishies are so kawaii. It's does type of fangirls that tick me off, but the male variant piss me off just as much, "Naruto and Soul Eater is tha shit", have you seen Samurai 7, NGE, Akira or GitS? "No I don't like cyberpunk and that's old shit, it's so out of date it can't be as sweet as Naruto or Soul Eater", it's not the best thing ever made if you haven't even watched or seen quality work especially milestones in animation history. It's their opinion and everyone can have theirs, I got no problem with that, I'm not one of those guys that walk around with signs with hatred or dislikes towards certain people, I'm more with the group that use earplugs and avoid any in-depth discussion on these hobbies (addictions) with people who are not open to even try to experience something else. And I'm not saying all screaming fangirls are like this, I also know one that did watch those series, afterwords she still didn't like most of them, it's not her genre, but she did find them very beautifully animated. I also know a lot of fangirls or manga- en anime-enthusiasts or whatever you like to call them, that do watch those series and much more, and I have very nice discussions about it with them, which I really enjoy I might add. Given I haven't read that many manga myself, I have read out of my usual genres when recommended by someone as a must read, however I watch anything animated including YAOI, and I don't exclude BL, I also watch the hardcore stuff not just the shonen-ai, I specifically mention this because if someone asks me if I enjoy YAOI I'll say yes without thinking twice about it but because since I'm from a bit older demographic I go by the old version of the term where YAOI includes dojinshi and gag manga and stuff, not just BL or June for the ones who might recall that old fashioned term, I will really watch anything animated, why would I not want to watch another animators work? (Yes I was an animator in the past, my commercial works was mostly advertisements, music video's and infomercials but animation is animation and I really enjoy it.) If you don't look into other genres how will you enrich your view of your hobby? You don't have to like it after you watched it, you might even come to hate it at a certain point or hate it even more than you already did, but it also might help in shaping a different view of the genre you do like, one which you would have never seen if you hadn't looked into the other genres. If we broaden the range of our perspective we might be able to understand, or at least view it from a different and hopefully better perspective, to that of other people and their genres of interest. I have seen Gravitation myself, it's not my cup of tea and I wasn't impressed by the animation but I can see and understand why so many would enjoy it. |
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