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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:08 pm Reply with quote
Ryo Hazuki wrote:
mdo7 wrote:
So it's OK for Japan to overedit/change our thing when they get imported to Japan.


You just don't get it. When Digimon had an awful dub in Finland, I don't think the complainers gave a crap about what Japanese companies (not the government, mind you, unlike you constantly insist) did with Finnish properties in turn. Instead researching of, what kind of translations the Japanese companies (still not Japan) have made of Finnish properties, many viewers petitoned and contacted the channel and a new dub was produced (although eventually last half of 02 was subtitled, because of expenses).

Do you think people, who protested against Miramax releasing a dub only DVD of Princess Mononoke, because some Japanese companies (again, not Japan itself) also release dub only realeases (supposition on my part) or do you think they as potential paying customers had the right to complain, so they could get the product they'd want?


Lavnovice9 wrote:
I must side with Ryo Hazuki and others on this subject. If people in Japan actually care about American cartoons, they can fight for them if they so choose to; it is none of our concern and a battle not involving us. For all we know no one in Japan cares if an American cartoon is edited since it seems they're not that popular there. Which brings me to another point. mdo7, how many western cartooners do you know of that were butchered in Japan? For all your talking about them you make it sound like it is as big of problem as in America where companies such as Harmony Gold, 4Kids Entertainment, and Nelvana have made their catalog full of butchered anime. You keep using Beast Wars, but that makes me think it was a one-off example rather than a norm. As Buster D pointed out, Beast Wars had no real edits, and it was released with a subbed audio track in Japan. That is far more than what you can say for most bad anime dubs. I do not think the situations are comparable.


It's hypocritical if people just go after US companies for editing anime but not when Japan edit/censor our stuff. Let me ask you this:

If your favorite non-Japanese animation went to Japan and the Japanese company that pick up the license for the show decide to heavily edit/alter the show (as in renaming characters, cutting scene that deem irrelevent, and replacing foreign culture with familiarial Japanese culture), wouldn't you complain?? Because I would.

Also I've seen and heard from Japanese fans that are concerned on how US handle anime, they do get upset when we edit/censor anime (some in Japan do get mad when we do it just like we do). So you see, if fans in Japan can show concern on how US or western countries handle/edit anime, then why can't we show concern when Japan edit/censor our stuff. This is what I don't like anime fandom, hypocrisy and double standard and pro-Asian/Japanese bias. I know Beast Wars is only one example, it's possible there could be more American/western cartoons that may have been severely edited/altered for the Japanese release, I don't see anyone taking time doing research on how Japan edit/censor our stuff. There are American cartoon that were popular (and some of them did get some minor alteration for the Japanese release). I believe Disney, and Hanna Barbera cartoon were popular in Japan. South Park I know is popular in Japan and FLCL was nice enough to pay homages to that show. I do know cartoon that has been slightly altered for the Japanese release:

This character, Muttley:



He was known in Japan as Ken-Ken. Also as studiotoledo said, Tintin and Asterix had seen alterations in other part of countries. so I don't know what Japan did to those 2.

The Herculoid as I mention had changes for the Japanese version, I believe the Herculoids was known as 怪獣王ターガン Kaijû Ô Tâgan (Monster King Targan). The characters' names in Japan were Targan (Zandor), Marmi (Tara), Kane (Dorno), Maryû (Zok), Rikira (Igoo), Tangurô (Tundro), Hyûhyû (Gloop) and Bôbô (Gleep). The Japanese intro to the show was somewhat interesting.

-Also I believe Bob the Builder had the character added another finger for the Japanese version.

Beside Beast Wars, I don't know any other cartoon that was severely altered, but I wouldn't be surprised if Japan did something similar to Robotech (as in combining 3 different cartoons). For now, nobody has dug up any research on Japan's editing of American/western cartoon.
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Lavnovice9



Joined: 23 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:15 pm Reply with quote
mdo7, that is still not sufficient evidence. Changing the name of one character from a show from the 1960s is still not in the same category as those companies I mentioned are. Is Persona 4 butchered because Kuma was renamed Teddy? It is annoying but not enough to put it on 4Kids level. You seem to be gasping at the straws to find examples and make assumptions certian shows are popular in Japan. I can tell you I have never seen South Park in a list of Japanese television rankings like the ones ANN occasionally reports. As for your question I am afraid I can't answer because I am not a fan of non Japanese animation. I would not care though, because I have the original version and think if any Japanese person cared about it it would have been fansubbed for them to see the original version like we do, but this is assuming anyone in Japan cared to do so. I believe no one has done research on this subject because American animation is not that important to Japan and only you seem to care about this subject.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Lavnovice9 wrote:
mdo7, that is still not sufficient evidence. Changing the name of one character from a show from the 1960s is still not in the same category as those companies I mentioned are. Is Persona 4 butchered because Kuma was renamed Teddy? It is annoying but not enough to put it on 4Kids level. You seem to be gasping at the straws to find examples and make assumptions certian shows are popular in Japan. I can tell you I have never seen South Park in a list of Japanese television rankings like the ones ANN occasionally reports. As for your question I am afraid I can't answer because I am not a fan of non Japanese animation. I would not care though, because I have the original version and think if any Japanese person cared about it it would have been fansubbed for them to see the original version like we do, but this is assuming anyone in Japan cared to do so. I believe no one has done research on this subject because American animation is not that important to Japan and only you seem to care about this subject.


To me and some other people it is relevent. It's still hypocritical that people would bash American companies handle anime but not go after Japan when they edit our stuff. This is just like how people would bash Hollywood for remaking Asian/Japanese film but not the opposite. As I mention, for the last few years Japan and other part of Asia has been remaking American films and yet the Hollywood remake haters have not complaint about Japan/Asia remaking American films, they just remain silent, what do you call that? I could say the same for live-action adaptation of anime, Hollywood/USA get bash for doing live-action movie based off of anime, but don't go after Korea or China or Taiwan for doing the same. Just because other part of Asia do live-action anime doesn't mean it'll be good, I even wonder why nobody went after Japan for screwing up live-action adaptation of anime/manga since the live-action of Negima was crap and neither was Battle Royale 2.

Also I believe there was a thread on ANN forum about American cartoon in Japan. They may have not done research on American cartoon edited in Japan, but luckilly we found out about American game altered for the Japanese version like I mention Maniac Mansion and Police Quest 2 being heavily altered for the Japanese version. There are other censorship Japan did to our game:

-Fallout 3 had a mission remove involving blowing up Megaton with a nuke (and human gore/dismemberment was censored, although ghouls/mutant gore was kept)
-Mafia 2 had nudity for the Japanese version. Which is ironic because doesn't Japan have a lot of topless women in magazine
-Saint Rows 3 phallic bat was altered for the Japanese version. That's ironic because Japan usually have a lot of those, what's make the game version any different.
-Call of Duty: Black Ops had the gore censored. Which is odd coming from a country that makes a lot of gory movie (tokyo Gore Police, Machine Girl, Ichi the Killer) which I find more disturbing then the gore in any video game I've played.


Last edited by mdo7 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:05 pm Reply with quote
I don't know who is stopping me from owning Macross Frontier, but I do know that I hate their guts.
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Lynx Amali



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:17 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I don't know who is stopping me from owning Macross Frontier, but I do know that I hate their guts.


Both sides of the Pacific.

Japan's unwillingness to license anything outside of what has already been licensed. (We were supposed to get that one Macross 7 manga YEARS ago [Macross 7 Trash, I think] from Tokyopop but that disappeared.)
HG, in the fact they only have license to the original footage of SDF and merchandising involving that era.

I think we were supposed to get Zero too, at one point. Plus only sneaked by because people weren't paying attention most likely.

That's not even getting into music licensing either. (Frontier, while not as big of an issue as 7's, would still cost an arm and a leg.)
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Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:59 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
Kruszer wrote:
TokyoGetter wrote:
Gee... I wonder if GeorgeC had an axe to grind or something?


Yes, his over-reaction to the subject is strange. My vote goes for he's on one of the companies' payrolls.


No GeorgeC is correct, I don't think he's working for Harmony Gold he know this really well and I agreed with him. I myself watch both Robotech and the uncut dub of Macross. There was something I like about Robotech over the Macross, and there were thing about Macross over Robotech (like Minmei's singing). But GeorgeC is correct, without Robotech, anime fanbase would not exist. As a matter of fact, we wouldn't have been anime fans without these edited anime. But the good news, a lot of anime that has been previously edited has now gotten uncut release, that's a good thing. The past is the past, just look at now and the future. Also as I stated, I don't see anime fans going after Japan for editing our stuff. So it's OK for Japan to overedit/change our thing when they get imported to Japan.


Umm...yeah, I own both Robotech and Macross too that's not the issue here or the one I brought up in the first place it's the legal mumbo jumbo that's preventing me from owning the other unlicensed Macross titles which I mentioned I wouldn't mind disappearing so that I could own them too. Despite my comment being extremely mild, I became a target of of his misplaced hostility against who knows what and insulted like I'd just killed his dog or something. Confused
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:23 am Reply with quote
Kruszer wrote:
mdo7 wrote:
Kruszer wrote:
TokyoGetter wrote:
Gee... I wonder if GeorgeC had an axe to grind or something?


Yes, his over-reaction to the subject is strange. My vote goes for he's on one of the companies' payrolls.


No GeorgeC is correct, I don't think he's working for Harmony Gold he know this really well and I agreed with him. I myself watch both Robotech and the uncut dub of Macross. There was something I like about Robotech over the Macross, and there were thing about Macross over Robotech (like Minmei's singing). But GeorgeC is correct, without Robotech, anime fanbase would not exist. As a matter of fact, we wouldn't have been anime fans without these edited anime. But the good news, a lot of anime that has been previously edited has now gotten uncut release, that's a good thing. The past is the past, just look at now and the future. Also as I stated, I don't see anime fans going after Japan for editing our stuff. So it's OK for Japan to overedit/change our thing when they get imported to Japan.


Umm...yeah, I own both Robotech and Macross too that's not the issue here or the one I brought up in the first place it's the legal mumbo jumbo that's preventing me from owning the other unlicensed Macross titles which I mentioned I wouldn't mind disappearing so that I could own them too. Despite my comment being extremely mild, I became a target of of his misplaced hostility against who knows what and insulted like I'd just killed his dog or something. Confused


hm, maybe GeorgeC might have interpreted your comment or something. I guess he's fed up with all those Robotech haters. But then again, people don't bother go after Japan when they overedit stuff just like how people don't give Japan/Asia the same criticism when they remake American films like on the same level when Hollywood remake Japanese/Asian films.
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Ryo Hazuki



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:30 am Reply with quote
[quote="mdo7"]

Question: If you go to a restaurant with your friend and he or she finds the food subpar and wants to make a complaint, do you stop him or her and lecture how in some other restaurant they serve even worse food?
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5915
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:07 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Ryo Hazuki"]
mdo7 wrote:


Question: If you go to a restaurant with your friend and he or she finds the food subpar and wants to make a complaint, do you stop him or her and lecture how in some other restaurant they serve even worse food?


OK, I don't know how this is relevent. But I would stop the person from making a whiny complaint because she/he is making himself/herself look inhuman and I would tell him/her that I have tasted food much worser then this. Again, I don't know why you are telling me this.

Let me ask couple of questions:

1/ Do you have anything against US/Hollywood remaking foreign film? Because are you aware that Asia has been remaking American films for the last few years, you already heard about Japan remaking the oscar-winning film, Unforgiven. Hong Kong already announced they're going to remake Mr & Mrs. Smith titled Assassin Couple. Europe has also been on the remake train. If a film from Finland is getting a American remake as in the characters will be changed to American and not take place in Finland, are you OK with this? Then 6 month later, Japan has announced they will remake that same film from Finland with the cast being played by Japanese, are you OK with this?

2/ My last question that relate to the above: Everytime Hollywood remake a film from Japan or Asia or Europe it get a lot of flak and hate, but when it's the opposite like Asia or Europe remake an American film, the hater stay silent. Why is that? Why hate Hollywood for remaking foreign film when a foreign countries does the same to American film?

Now that's a better question then the one you give me.
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Ryo Hazuki



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:33 pm Reply with quote
[quote="mdo7"]

Your answer suffices. According to you, you should never complain about anything, even as a paying customer, because there's always something as bad or worse.

This also explains, why you didn't answer whether the people, who complained, when Miramax announced that Princess Mononoke DVD would be dub only release but finally caved in due to negative feedback, were wrong or not. I guess they were just a bunch of pathetic whiners, who should have complained about Japanese Wacky Racers dub, even though it wouldn't have been relevant to their needs.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:00 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Ryo Hazuki"]
mdo7 wrote:


This also explains, why you didn't answer whether the people, who complained, when Miramax announced that Princess Mononoke DVD would be dub only release but finally caved in due to negative feedback, were wrong or not. I guess they were just a bunch of pathetic whiners, who should have complained about Japanese Wacky Racers dub, even though it wouldn't have been relevant to their needs.


Miramax is known to screw up foreign film by including dub only (including dubtitles). I would also complain about Miramax handling of Princess Mononoke too. Because what if the English dub was not good and there's no mean to hear it in the original language. The reason they didn't complain about American Cartoon being edited in Japan because back then in 1999 (that's the year Princess Mononoke came out in US), we didn't have Youtube or a website showing the differences of how American cartoon got edited in Japan. After Youtube came out, some fans of American cartoon in Japan uploaded Japanese dub of American cartoon and many American people (including anime fans like me) was able to find out that American cartoon like Hanna Barbera's Cartoon and Beast Wars was edited/altered in Japan. But now current release of Princess Mononoke now has both English and Japanese audio, so nobody complaining. The good news, some websites like Kotaku and Hardcore Gaming 101 has revealed American video games that got edited/censored/altered for the Japanese release.

If Japan did edit our stuff, I have to complain too because if a person is complaining that US edit Japanese stuff but kept silent or allow Japan to do the same, then it's hypocrisy and double standard. Where's the fairness and justice in that? You can't have it both way.

Quote:
Your answer suffices. According to you, you should never complain about anything, even as a paying customer, because there's always something as bad or worse.


OK I answer your question, now answer mine which you didn't yet:

A film from your country get an American remake, and 6 month later Japan announced that same film from your country will get a Japanese remake? Will you not show any bias or hate against the US remake, and if you criticize foreign remake of your country's film will you criticize both Japan and US for remaking your country's film? Will you not show any bias when Japan remake your country's film.

Also how come everytime US remake a foreign film, people will complain but when it's a foreign countries remaking American films, the same people just stay silent and give foreign remake of American films a free pass from hate and criticism.
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Apollo-kun



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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Location: City 7, Macross 7
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:04 pm Reply with quote
1. Mention Harmony Gold
2. Flaming about Carl Macek "ruining anime" starts
3. ????
4. Profit!

Seriously, is this still a thing? Why can't people respect the dead? Anime fandom wouldn't be the same without him.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:15 pm Reply with quote
Apollo-kun wrote:
Seriously, is this still a thing? Why can't people respect the dead? Anime fandom wouldn't be the same without him.


If you believe what some people say, it would be better, since we'd be able to buy titles such as Macross Frontier. That would be pretty cool.
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StudioToledo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:20 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
It's hypocritical if people just go after US companies for editing anime but not when Japan edit/censor our stuff. Let me ask you this:

If your favorite non-Japanese animation went to Japan and the Japanese company that pick up the license for the show decide to heavily edit/alter the show (as in renaming characters, cutting scene that deem irrelevent, and replacing foreign culture with familiarial Japanese culture), wouldn't you complain?? Because I would.

I remember hearing of that happening to The Simpsons in some Middle Eastern market where they had to change Homer's Duff beer into soda. It was certainly extreme, but then I suppose it's difficult reasoning with the cultural norms associated with societies that are not us, yet I would rather people were open-minded anyway.

Quote:
Also I've seen and heard from Japanese fans that are concerned on how US handle anime, they do get upset when we edit/censor anime (some in Japan do get mad when we do it just like we do). So you see, if fans in Japan can show concern on how US or western countries handle/edit anime, then why can't we show concern when Japan edit/censor our stuff. This is what I don't like anime fandom, hypocrisy and double standard and pro-Asian/Japanese bias.

How I stopped being a fan.

Quote:
This character, Muttley:


Do I hear a snicker? Wink

Quote:
He was known in Japan as Ken-Ken. Also as studiotoledo said, Tintin and Asterix had seen alterations in other part of countries. so I don't know what Japan did to those 2.

Well either series was ever popular in Japan and only a couple volumes saw print decades ago. We Americans aught to be grateful we might still find them on library shelves.

Quote:
The Herculoid as I mention had changes for the Japanese version, I believe the Herculoids was known as 怪獣王ターガン Kaijû Ô Tâgan (Monster King Targan). The characters' names in Japan were Targan (Zandor), Marmi (Tara), Kane (Dorno), Maryû (Zok), Rikira (Igoo), Tangurô (Tundro), Hyûhyû (Gloop) and Bôbô (Gleep). The Japanese intro to the show was somewhat interesting.

It is interesting how these shows are perceived in other countries. Of course they like to show how tough these guys are, yet as one former H-B guy I know put it, the show was an excuse for the studio to do Tom & Jerry-ish violence again and not be tied down by the Sci-Fi elements contained.

Quote:
-Also I believe Bob the Builder had the character added another finger for the Japanese version.

I often heard of that too, though it was with with Postman Pat myself (according to that article, they didn't touch the animation on that series so I think it was a rumor that's been passed around in the industry anyway). It is weird how a Yakuza deal can get attributed to animated humans who only got those many fingers because of the laziness we westerners love doing.

Quote:
Beside Beast Wars, I don't know any other cartoon that was severely altered, but I wouldn't be surprised if Japan did something similar to Robotech (as in combining 3 different cartoons). For now, nobody has dug up any research on Japan's editing of American/western cartoon.

Which in itself would make a neat topic for a con panel alone.

There is one guy I do know very well who has lived in Japan and knows quite a good deal of history pertaining to the American cartoons he had seen or have read about over there. He doesn't come here, but if you check out his blog and talk to him, I'm sure he'll open up!
http://bakertoons.blogspot.com/

Apollo-kun wrote:
1. Mention Harmony Gold
2. Flaming about Carl Macek "ruining anime" starts
3. ????
4. Profit!

Seriously, is this still a thing? Why can't people respect the dead? Anime fandom wouldn't be the same without him.

You'd think they would.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5915
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:13 pm Reply with quote
StudioToledo wrote:
mdo7 wrote:
Beside Beast Wars, I don't know any other cartoon that was severely altered, but I wouldn't be surprised if Japan did something similar to Robotech (as in combining 3 different cartoons). For now, nobody has dug up any research on Japan's editing of American/western cartoon.


Which in itself would make a neat topic for a con panel alone.
There is one guy I do know very well who has lived in Japan and knows quite a good deal of history pertaining to the American cartoons he had seen or have read about over there. He doesn't come here, but if you check out his blog and talk to him, I'm sure he'll open up!
http://bakertoons.blogspot.com/


I doubt anyone is going to do research or do a segment on Japanese dub on American cartoon. The only reason some people found out about Beast War and other American cartoon had alteration for the Japanese veron because of Youtube (people from Japan upload the Japanese dub and intro of American cartoon so people in US would find out that Japan did edit American cartoon) If there's anyone in Japan that can speak English and has a huge amount of knowledge on American cartoon and has done research on censorship/editing of American animation in Japan, is there a way he/she can present it at a con so US anime fans can now realize that Japan is no different from US when it comes to editing foreign animation.

Since you brought it up, now I wonder what changes dd Toho and HB did for the Japanese version of this show:



I know the Japanese version of the show had Godzilla trademark roar replacing Godzilla's "Hulk" roar from the US version. There's never been a DVD release in Japan and no one from Japan has uploaded the Japanese dub of the show. But oh boy, I wouldn't be surprised if HB Godzilla got major alterations for the Japanese version, like for example:

-the main characters: Pete, Quinn and Carl Majors had their name change to Japanese name like Pete become Ichiro, Quinn become Megumi, and Carl probably was renamed to Eiji. Don't ask me about Brock. Maybe Godzuky was changed to Minilla for the Japanese version and given his voice to make it less confusing.
-The music HB used in the show was probably replaced with Akira Ifukube music from the movie to make it more familiar to the Japanese fans.
-Some of the monsters in the show may have been replaced with the familiar Toho's monsters like the fire bird in episode 1 in the Japanese version was Rodan/Radon using his trademark roar, and the Earth Eater in the 2nd episode was replaced with Baragon. I can name more monsters that I might suspect was probably change for the Japanese version.
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