Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Honey & Clover
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Levitz9
 Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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I don't want to sound misogynistic, but is Hagu really a character so insulting to women that it needed its own entry? Sure, I do understand the points of Casey, Bamboo, et all, but like Sara said, it's not being played for the moe, it's to show how sheltered she is. Heck, get any prodigy child who grew up in a sheltered life, and s/he is going to be a really shy, unsociable outcast (I would know--I've lived through that, in a way).
In a medium where we've got such shining examples of feminism such as Hevn from GetBackers, Yuki from Vampire Knight, and Kei Kishimoto from Gantz (yeah, I'm being sarcastic here), Hagu, well...doesn't exactly look like an insulting character. Sure, Honey and Clover is on a completely different astral plane than Vampire Knight, but every great work has a flaw somewhere. On the other hand, I haven't heard anyone compain about Capt. Louis Renault from Casablanca being insulting to the French, despite his heavy-handed approach to his job. Still, this entry had some good food-for-thought; it makes me want to read H&C a lot more now...thanks![/i] |
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pachy_boy
Posts: 1323 |
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I love atmospheric slice-of-life shows that follow characters living a normal life and where nothing happens. But I have to confess that Honey and Clover doesn't do much for me and here are my thoughts on it:
The cast is made up of three guys and two girls. While the one guy is definitely quirky and another is a stalker (this gets played for laughs sometimes but I never found anything funny about it), the guy characters are otherwise just normal, average-joe type of people, the kind you could meet in real life. I long felt the girls were a different story. People say Hagu is not moe, but she’s so ridiculously short for her age (short girls exist, yes, but as tall as a man's hip?) and acts like a 10-year-old, she cries easily and while she does try to strive for some independence she still wants to be taken care of. And while Ayumi may be the more normal girl, after having watched the first season and read as far of the manga as I could go, it feels like she’s just there to be hopelessly and helplessly in love with the one guy, and to just be there to forever cling onto that unrequited love. For that matter, this story is inherent with interconnected loves that just go nowhere, and according to Wikipedia, actually ends nowhere for most of them. This is all largely due to Casey Brienza’s review of the manga a while back. I tend to ignore her bad reviews because she really just overbashes things (and overpraises titles in her good reviews), but her perspective of Honey and Clover brought some perspective on this title for me, and I just can’t appreciate it as much as some people. That and I feel the comedy feels forced most of the time, where the characters just scream out stuff to make up for the humor. Feel free to let me know that I’m wrong on some of these points, but do so nicely, please. Last edited by pachy_boy on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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By the way, since they have done a live action movie and series for Honey & Clover, you can see how a real life Hagu looks like (in a Japanese mind). As a manga character it might look more extreme, but I don't think she is supposed to be all that extremely different, so that others would think something's wrong with her body.
Hagu's actress Yu Aoi's height is 1,60m and she's born 1985. 
Morita and Hagu 
Hagu and Ayumi 
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Jackmace Ryo
 Posts: 65 Location: Southeast Asia |
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If it's any indication, I got two RL friends that said Honey&Clover is boring and that the best thing about it is Hagu and her 'cuteness'. Of course, they were moe fans. And so, I can understand the sentiment towards Hagu. |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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Wow, almost that whole article was on Hagu and barely anything else to do with H&C, not what I was looking forward to. And I think that everyone was just reading into Hagu too much. She's a character, one who would help the story move along through her past, her actions, and how she appears to the world (e.g. her apperance). And I never thought that she was quite that important in the story, to me the story is about Takemoto finding what he wants to do in life (although I will admit I haven't finished the manga yet) and the weird stuff that goes down in art school (oh and the school somehow felt very Western to me, maybe I could sympathize with late night art homework in High School and the poor college student sentiment is felt everywhere...).
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neocloud9
 Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Yeah, "charming" is the perfect word to describe it. 
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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I think from an ANN review standpoint, this is absolutely true. It seems a review can't get written unless "moe" or "fan service" is written in it, even if the series contains none. My favorites are the reviews that dispel the notion of "moe" and "fan service". If it wasn't in there, why bother writing about it? This is why I have an issue with these terms. If they're not negative in definition, why bother with them at all? But the way I see it (based on replies of others), these terms are negative and people's choices to watch a series is now based on whether these are inclusive or exclusive to the series overall.
The above is an example, written by a reviewer who has never been to a beach in which bikinis are nothing more than strings and "pasties" are constantly under attack by local decency laws. *sigh* And this discussion over H&C seems to put emphasis on character types rather than story. Again. A bit disappointed, actually, since Bamboo is on this panel and her independent reviews often ignore this aspect. I think the "COA" title should be updated to "Chick On Anime - Honey & Clover's Hagu Discussion". It's more accurate. |
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FeralKat
Posts: 402 |
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As an art major, I can tell you, if you hold a pencil, are female, and breathe, sometimes that's enough for guys to become completely infatuated with you (ugh). ...But that's all it is, infatuation. There's nothing wrong with that because most relationships start with a shallow initial attraction anyway. |
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Tomaria
 Posts: 1 Location: Netherlands |
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I too do think you talked too much about Hagu in this article. Come on, she is an important character but there's so much more on H&C. I also like Yamada-san very much! And the story of Takemoto-kun is also interesting! Too bad you didn't talk about the whole series...
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I'm rather taken with the idea of Hagu as a "mascot" for the series -- that is how I see her, as well. Although Takemoto obviously feels actual love for her (to the extent that his rather uncertain emotions have fixed on anything, yet), most of the other characters who surround her treat her more like a kitten.
And no, she's not moe. I don't really see why the concept of moe has to be forced into any discussion of this series. She is, as correctly noted earlier in the discussion, a sheltered personality. She's crippled and trying to grow out of it. I frankly don't see that she is much of a love-object either. Shuuji's doting and Takemoto's infatuation may be aspects of love, but Morita is more toying with her, in his screwy way. She triggers the more disagreeable side of his creativity, never very far below the surface. Personally, I don't find Hagu to be the most interesting female character in the series -- that has to be Ayu, whose development and characterisation is deeply fascinating. - abunai |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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First of all, I love the Honey and Clover anime. It was my first exposure to josei, and the first series to premier in the Noitamina time slot, which has since featured many, many great series, all slanted toward a more adult audience, even slanted toward the female demographic (although generally gender-balanced). I related to all the characters and circumstances - I knew people like this in college, even a girl rather like Hagu (she actually was young, though, having skipped a grade). It's every bit as much about their careers and trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives as it is about any romances. I loved it, and it's definitely on my list of anime I want to purchase once I've saved up the money.
I cannot vouch for the manga, since I've never read it (and sometimes a slight art style can make all the difference), but I never felt that Hagu was "moe" in the way Ms. Brienza makes her out to be. Shy and socially awkward, yes, but she's also career-motivated (spoiler[she chooses her art career over romance in the end]) and her shyness is something she has to overcome. I'll agree that Morita's treatment of her at the outset is mean, but again, he needs to grow up too, and he does. Nor is the series just about her;she's not the main character, and there are others who get more screen time. Frankly, I'm rather tired of Ms. Brienza's faux-feminism, where every perceived slight against women gets the entire focus of her review, while yaoi smut with exploitative sexual scenes for the sake of an ogling fujoshi audience get a complete pass. I suppose I should be glad that she admits she was holding Honey and Clover to a different standard, but hers are often double standards. I've learned to read around them, but it depresses me at times that she's the primary female reviewer at this site (no knocks to Bamboo, but yours is a weekly column and Ms. Brienza pumps out several full-length ones a week). So just prepare yourself for Hagu being weird, but rest assured, there's more to it than that. |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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Yep, she is spoiled and not very polite, but she definitely grows as a character.
Ayumi also develops and gets to know other people  But yea, she was really badly in love, but that can happen. Hard to get over it, especially if the guy keeps being so nice and caring to you. ^^
Imho they clearly did go somewhere. It's not the typical "they become a couple and get married to live happily ever after"-stuff, but at the end of the series they have all grown, also thanks to these love experiences. I actually think it's quite realistic. The perfect "love at first sight where you get married afterwards" is quite rare imho. Love is definitely not the only topic of the series either, I thought it was much more about "finding yourself" and which way you want to take in life, "coming of age" ... |
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kawaiibunny3
 Posts: 534 Location: Houston, Texas |
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I've only seen one episode of the anime, but I can totally understand why Hagu seems.....unfitting and unrealistic (and annoying)
Her character really reminds me of Tsubasa from Kare Kano (looks super young for her age, people love her instantly, is somewhat of a mascot, keeps to herself, and matures as the story progresses) and Tsubasa ended up being one of my favorite characters from the series. Even though I'm now in the right age bracket for jousei manga, I still feel like Tsubasa (and I guess Hagu) is relatable to me because I'm shy, childlike and going through a stage where I need to mature while I'm living on my own now. so I think the "girl who acts young even though she's at a mature age"in shoujo/jousei manga was meant for women readers like me who feel like they need to grow up :/ Also, I agree with Sara's point, that artists just like drawing cute girls just for the heck of it, Because I know I've drawn my fair share of cute girls in my life :/ |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2255 Location: Online Terminal |
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There may be a bit of keikaku doori here. Art, being a social medium, is naturally open to interpretation, so why not have a show about art school mean different things to different people. I have a handful of theories about Hagu as a turn-off (I never found her that cute), but the ones I like are the "Drawing cute girls are fun" and that Hagu's supposed to be an antagonist of sorts and then is developed in that classic "bad guys are people, too" trope of manga and anime.
Another theory I thought was interesting, think I heard it here, that Hagu's height "fluctuates" throughout the series, depending on her feelings. It doesn't have much to do with the above, but I thought I'd throw that out there. Also, I thought the series had a mascot; the firm's pet dog from the 2nd half of the series. |
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BunnyCupCakes
 Posts: 224 Location: The Sunshine State |
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Strangely enough, I never saw Hagu as something "moe". Why can't characters just be cute without sticking that tag along?
And I think the manga-ka just has a complex of drawing cute little girls. It's sort of her thing I guess. I mean have you seen her cover art for Eden of the East? Saki looks like an 8 year old there. I never hated Hagu either. I read the manga & didn't quite connect to her because it didn't feel like she was the focal point at all but mostly the guys. I guess it depends how you see the series being told. |
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