Forum - View topic56 Great Manga Authors
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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This is not new stuff, but something I found out several years ago. It has come to my mind now that it would be useful if I put it on this site for other people to see.
There was a poll on the Japanese forum 2ch at the end of 2006 about who were the greatest manga authors of all time. "Greatness" was defined as the artistic or social influence, sales (this element had the lowest value) or contribution to the development of the genres. There are 10 ranks, each one including the different number of people - for example, there are 10 people on the 10th place, 9 on the 9th place, and so on. That would have made the total of 55 people, had it not been for the special, 'zero' place for one more person. So, the actual number of people is 56, as in the title of this thread. So, here goes the list, with the names in the Japanese order (family name first): 0 Tezuka Osamu 1 Fujiko F Fujio 2 Ishinomori Shotaro / Hasegawa Machiko 3 Yokoyama Mitsuteru / Akatsuka Fujio / Mizuki Shigeru 4 Matsumoto Reiji / Nagai Go / Fujiko Fujio A / Shirato Sanpei 5 Tsuge Yoshiharu / Otomo Katsuhiro / Toriyama Akira / Hagio Moto / Umezu Kazuo 6 Morohoshi Daijiro / Koyama Yu / Takahashi Rumiko / Igarashi Yumiko / Saito Takao / Mizushima Shinji 7 Inoue Takehiko / Akimoto Osamu / Urasawa Naoki / Motomiya Hiroshi / Taniguchi Jiro / Adachi Mitsuru / Chiba Tetsuya 8 Azuma Hideo / Yamagishi Ryoko / Hoshino Yukinobu / Yaguchi Takao / Tsunoda Jiro / Kawaguchi Kaiji / George Akiyama / Shirow Masamune 9 Takano Fumiko / Oshima Yumiko / Araki Hirohiko / Nagashima Shinji / Usui Yoshito / Maya Mineo / Monkey Punch / Sakura Momoko / Kurumada Masami 10 Matsumoto Taiyo / Hirata Hiroshi / Hojo Tsukasa / Ikeda Riyoko / Mizuno Hideko / Terasawa Buichi / Fukumoto Nobuyuki / Igarashi Mikio / Takahashi Yoichi / Okazaki Kyoko (As you can see, I haven't made the names more complicated with the long vowels.) There are two versions of the list, this one being the Malon version (MAnga saLON), from the name of the board on which it originated. The second one is from the VIP board, and there are some differences, but they are slight (a couple of new names, and some old ones dropped). If someone thinks I've made up all of this, here is the link to the Japanese site which preserves the information. The authors who didn't make it onto the list were grouped into five classes based on the number of votes, but there are too many of them, and I don't have too much time at the moment. All I can say is that the list reflects the history of manga exceptionally well. Last edited by ridiculus on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Datafiend
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I can't help but notice that Kazuo Koike didn't make the cut. :sadface
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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Koike and the other scenario writers were not taken into account, I would say. There is no Ikki Kajiwara, no Buronson. Only the manga artists were considered.
And, on a side note, I think there is somewhat different approach in Japan regarding the recognition of the writer's position in the creative process of making comics. Let's take an example: in Shigurui, Norio Nanjo was credited as a writer, but, as far as I know, he wasn't involved with the comic at all; he was just provided the original work. It is a usual practise in the Japanese comics industry, even if there is some (major) differences between the two works. Surely, that is a thing worth of discussion. Regarding the list, some of the artists that almost made it into the top 56 are: Iwaaki Hitoshi, Yamamoto Naoki, Hosono Fujihiko, Ichijo Yukari, Miuchi Suzue, Maruo Suehiro, CLAMP, Miura Kentaro, etc. |
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hyojodoji
Posts: 584 |
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I read Nanjō Norio's Surugajō Gozenjiai, which Shigurui is loosely based on.
Probably it's related to the Japanese term 'gensaku' having two slightly different meanings in entertainment/publishing industries in Japan. 1. There is already a novel or something written by novelist A. → Mangaka B adapts the novel into a manga. B writes a 'script' based on the novel and illustrates it with manga drawings. 2. Manga scriptwriter C writes a script which is intended to be made into a manga in the first place. → Manga artist D illustrates C's script with manga drawings. Both novelist A and manga scriptwriter C are given the 'gensaku' credit title. In the first arc of the Wild 7 manga, the protagonist Hiba said that maybe he could become a 'gensaku-sha' when he talked about a good story which he thought up. In this somewhat metafictional case, the word 'gensaku' is an example of the 2nd meaning. |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4828 |
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Kinda shocked Naoko Takeuchi isn't on there. o_o She started what caused the biggest magical girl boom in the history of anime! (Sailormoon)
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hyojodoji
Posts: 584 |
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Takeuchi was mentioned in the separate heading page. |
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hyojodoji
Posts: 584 |
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As for Takeuchi Naoko, in Japan, there are people who say things like 'What Takeuchi did is mere "comicalisation". She was able to acquire the position of the creator in absence of the Tōdō Izumi system.'
In a sense, I would not be very surprised if there are 'Great mangaka' lists which her name is not on. In 2006, on 2ch, I read a Manga Salon thread where habitués of the Malon board discussed a tentative plan of that '55 Great Mangaka' list originally compiled by Vippers. Only a few persons mentioned Takeuchi; and besides jokingly, sardonically or critically. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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Hmm.....I don't think I quite understand....^^;
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I think you threw people off with the word "comicalisation". Do you mean a comic adaption of something pre-existing, like in the case with Todo Izumi - Toei? If that's the case I sake @#% Toei. Naoko Takeuchi is the creator, and editors and Toei getting involved later to mold it further into a franchise be damned. In America we have plenty of comic artist/writers who lose control of their products, and even lose their rights to bigger companies (Ala the original Marvel/DC titles) and we still recognize who originally was behind that creation. I think however when looking at this list it's important to see it with a couple things in mind. First, it's just a list some random people created (how many of the Japanese forum 2ch-ers do you think are female?). Then of course you should keep in mind that the people at the top half of the list for the most part have been around since the 1950s at least. And then most importantly the majority of them are men. Yes Hasegawa Machiko is listed in the top 2 tier for being the first majorly successful woman artist (1950s), but where is Yoshiko Nishitani, the woman who pretty much created campus romance manga in the 1960s? The next woman doesn't appear again until tier 5 with Hagio Moto. Where are more of the Year 24 group? Sure there is Yamagishi Ryoko, Hagio Moto, Oshima Yumiko, and Ikeda Riyoko, but the others? Hasegawa Machiko, Takahashi Rumiko, Yumiko Igarashi, Hagio Moto, Yamagishi Ryoko, Takano Fumiko, Sakura Momoko, Ikeda Riyoko, Okazaki Kyoko. Nine women. Sure I can be missing someone whose gender I'm unfamiliar with, but nine women out of a list of 56 people? This right there is a reason in my opinion why Takeuchi Naoko isn't on the list. There are plenty of other women from a generation or two before her that were overlooked (and extremely important to manga today). Japan is still a heavily patriarchal society, and as far as I can tell the "newest" female to make this list is Okazaki Kyoko (early 1990s?) Like any socially recognized art work or artist (male or female), it can take decades for an artist to get recognized. Perhaps it's too early to add them, but only time will tell if people like Naoko Takeuchi or CLAMP will be commonly remembered 40 years from now. I personally am betting they will be, especially as the women who grew up with them continue to mature and take on more respected positions in the slowly (but surely) evolving Japanese society. Naoko Takeuchi has undoubtedly contributed in terms of artistic and social influence, as well as sales and contribution of the genres. People can think what they will of the property Sailor Moon, but it's still a well known title 20 years later. CLAMP is kind of gray in that department with various hit or miss titles, but they have a huge body of work and are still going strong. |
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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There are some good points in your post, but I have to completely disagree with the quoted passage. First, this list is the most non-random list I have ever seen, meaning that the majority of the voters must have been somehow involved with the manga on different levels, as editors, sellers, maybe even artists. The names that are on the list are enough proof. You would not find some of them on any list created by some "random" people. When we are talking about the influences, many American manga fans often see just (distorted) reflections of the real images, or, in some cases, mere shadows of the reflections. And what does it mean that "the majority of the people on the list are men"? Is that a crime in and of itself, regardless of the historical circumstances?
Actually, there are 11 women on the list. You forgot Yumiko Oshima (and you even mentioned her in the previous passage) and Hideko Mizuno is also a woman. And that statement is not fair at all - in truth, completely unfair, because, if we look at any similar attempt regarding the American or European history of comics - in the societies you wouldn't call patriarchal, I am sure - we will find that even fewer women are included. But, do not be fooled - I love many female authors. Many of them are my favourites. I adore Kyoko Okazaki. I am VERY interested in the work of Ryoko Yamagishi. But I am not at all interested in this males/females ratio for its own sake. Speaking of Naoko Takeuchi, the next statement would have more sense from my position as a general manga fan (but, mind you, I am a man): Kinda shocked Sensha Yoshida isn't on there. o_o He started what caused the biggest gag manga boom in the history of MANGA! (And there is really Sensha Yoshida in the other version of the list.) The problem with any complaint of this type is: if someone goes in, someone must go out. And that's pretty ungrateful business. Would you exclude, let's say, Masami Kurumada to make an empty place for Mrs. Takeuchi? But Saint Seiya is in the Sailor Moon, as in many other titles... |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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If you are to take into account the "great" creators of manga, you have to take into account the female half of the audience. I simply pointed out that women in general are severely under-represented, whether they write for the shoujo genre or not. So yes, if you're making a list of the manga greats, then yes, it is a crime to overlook the many women who have contributed. It is a fact that Japan is a male dominated society, and that women, even if they create a hugely popular manga, are not respected equally across the board. This is just basic gender politics, and you can argue them as much as you want, but it exists. I brought it up because it is a very real possible answer to Chiibi's question. You may think Japan is a Utopia where all is equal, and you can continue to walk around with sun colored glasses, but Japan's comic industry has the same gender role problems North America's does. You may hold this list in high esteem, and that is your opinion, but I do not call a forum on 2ch the end all of manga academics or critics - they're just a bunch of random guys (and I say this based on statistics that show that MEN dominate forums for various reasons) on a forum, arguing over their favorite manga-ka. Yes, it's a nice list, but in the end it's all opinion. It's not some popular magazine whose articles people hold in high regard, or an academic art journal, it's a forum where anyone can post, and they do so anonymously. I said the people who made these selections were random, not the list. I can see organization to it, but still in my opinion it's full of holes. You make the mistake of assuming that just because you think the list is brilliance that surely there are people from the industry behind it, but really anyone with a few hours to waste could do it. You see editors and sellers, maybe even artist creating this, but you have absolutely nothing at all to back that claim up. I on the other hand only see a list created by otaku who spend hours on a forum. Like me, right now. I study comics. Perhaps I'm an expert, but I'm not egotistical enough to go and create a list of what I think the top 50 manga greats are. I could go to the anime portion of this site and contribute to the lists they create there, but I think the forum generally bans such things because they're pretty much pointless. Sorry, but I just don't hold high opinions for lists from my fellow otaku. My general sentiments from my previous comments on sexism are this: Men have ruled society up till recently, and the people who rule society determined what stayed on as factual history, and what was to be appreciated as art. 2ch is a little escapist world for men, run by men, and some of them got together to create this list. They made a list. So what? Before you call me a male hating feminist, keep in mind I'd think the same thing if the list was created by a female dominated forum. Either wouldn't have the credentials to make a list I'd respect. Anyone can make a list on the net. Either way they're just lists based on some random stranger's opinion. Sorry I don't hold the 2ch guys as highly as you do. |
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ridiculus
Posts: 72 |
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And where did you get this info (that females are, or, more importantly WERE, half of the audience)?
Isn't it a crime to overlook many men who have contributed, too? You were the one who said that women were more overlooked, but that sentiment was based on your private view on the gender politics, not on the actual knowledge of manga history.
This is generally true (well, maybe without sun colored glasses!  ), but we are not talking about Japanese society here. It's ironic that you're bashing one list that gives females greatest respect (comparing with the other lists of this type) for not giving them enough respect.
Anyway, this:
and this:
are two different things. Let's just say I know the opinion of the manga critics and it very much equals the names on the list. There are some people, like Daijiro Morohoshi or Mikio Igarashi, who I don't expect to find in the general public's votes.
2ch is many things, so you can't describe it with a simple sentance like that. And, by the way, this is a random list of the manga "greats". I've seen too many of them.
You don't need to be sorry for that. I just think your arguments are based not on the actual manga facts (although even "facts" in history can lose that status, as you've already said), but on something else. This isn't a perfect list - maybe there is no such thing - but it's a good beginning. IMHO. |
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Vertical_Ed
Company Representative
Posts: 278 Location: New York, NY |
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Actually according to my sales and marketing peers at Kodansha, Shueisha and Tuttle-Mori, she is right. Women make up a slight majority of the Japanese reading audience for manga. For doujin according to comiket research it women are a clear majority. |
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Vertical_Ed
Company Representative
Posts: 278 Location: New York, NY |
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Edit : duplicate posts.
Last edited by Vertical_Ed on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hyojodoji
Posts: 584 |
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I don't know about some gaijin whose knowledge about manga may be limited to translated works and information in non-Japanese languages, but actually the evaluation of Takeuchi Naoko is not always high among Japanese readers of manga and writers on manga.
The '100 shōjo manga which we want to hand down to the 21st century and approx. 180 honourable mentions' list. Compiled by approximately 700 fans of shōjo manga after discussing from April to December in 2000. The '100 manga which we love most' list. Selected by readers of CREA, which is a magazine for young women, in 2008. Takeuchi Naoko is not mentioned in both the lists. The 20th Century Shōjo Manga Paradise is a book (pub. in 2001) by two female writers about 500 shōjo manga, but it does not talk about Takeuchi Naoko. The Sailor Moon anime is slightly mentioned in the 6-page anime section, but neither 'Takeuchi Naoko' nor 'Bishōjosenshi Sailor Moon' is not in the indexes. The mangaka who are dealt with in the 'critical essays on shōjo mangaka' chapter are Ōshima Yumiko, Hagio Moto, Takemiya Keiko, Yamagishi Ryōko, Kuramochi Fusako, Mutsu A-ko, Mihara Jun, Iwadate Mariko, Yoshida Akimi, Yoshino Sakumi, Takano Fumiko, Kawahara Izumi, Okazaki Kyōko, Tada Yumi, Anno Moyoko, Minami Q-ta, and Nananan Kiriko. |
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