Forum - View topicShelf Life - Fists of Fury
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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In some ways I see your point. It sucks that you've apparently said something bad but nobody can really judge it for themselves because the comment has been removed. Still, maybe you should have thought about this before you posted something inappropriate. Not to mention that the reason this is an issue is because you continue to press this topic instead of just realizing you crossed the line and dropping it. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Since you called me out, please show me these 3 or 4 times. The only beef I've had with a reviewer was with Key, but he stood up for himself to defend his position. Think it was in vain? Now I question to think what I wrote in this thread was perceived as a personal attack at Bamboo, allowing you to believe I've learned nothing about the lessons learned from the past.
My defense: I correct my statements because the reader didn't comprehend my statement correctly, especially when using emoticons denoting any lack of seriousness of said statement. In other cases, when my statements were too vague and requires clarification and a user requests it.
My translation: "PJ, despite moderation feedback, you're still making comments that are pissing us off. Nevermind your intention, you're an a**hole. We're not going to tell you why, on these posts we take as personal attacks, and leave it up to you to figure it out later. But we'll use these vague examples in future replies leaving you absolutely clueless when we personally target you in them." Noted. So my actions will continue without any idea I'm pissing you (or other staff) off. Yes, that's a true definition of community. Quite frankly, I have a great belief I've toned my posts down quite a bit since having these past altercations, but apparently not enough as to be the target of vague statements like this one.
Some better than others.
Like this one by you? I do care, just not in the manner when it's delivered so damn vaguely, I've no clue what the hell you're talking about.
Did you really mean to say: "I take this reply, indirectly relating to me through my words, services, or website, as a personal attack and shall ignore such statement until a later time to which I can throw it back in the poster's face." I especially love the use of "uncharitable" in this regard. Mean spirited? Possibly, but not sure how "mean" is defined around here. Calling someone an "a**hole" is apparently not mean, but using the term "unprofessional" is. How about a sticky to clear this up so everyone's on the same page. Or will this type of action continue against many of us posters who actually convey statements that aren't one liners agreeing to how wonderful a series is?
Here's my counter advice: Tell me what the hell I did wrong in this thread. I thought I took the approach at using your advice. Clearly, something's wrong. My PM box is open 24 hours a day.
Apparently I'm not the only one who hasn't learned from making assumptions while replying. Note: I'll be using this in a future reply to you, vague as hell, about how mean you were to me because you said I wasn't professional as denoted by the use of the word "you". 
Now comes the question: should we posters be held accountable at such a statement as factual despite all indications of the contrary? Know that my answer to this will always be no, unless "Teh Rules" are updated to include "Posting under the guise of levity is not allowed. This rule prevents any notion of jokes, statements, or indirect personal attacks going horribly, horribly wrong to induce arguments with the staff of ANN."
This solidifies the grudge you're keeping from a thread which has nothing to do with my reply in this one because not once did you point out where I was personally attacking Bamboo. I've re-read my reply to her. I see nothing wrong with it. But therein lies this issue when vague statements are made at doing so without clear examples proving otherwise. Even as I preview this reply, I see no personal attack against you Zac. However, I get the impression you won't see it as such. |
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Ralifar
 Posts: 205 Location: League City, TX |
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I'm going to defend both sides a little(I'm talking about things that concern the actual thread and not the dispute over whether someone is being polite or not).
Here's a little idiom that I'm sure just about everyone has heard in some form or fashion: If it looks like a watermelon, smells like a watermelon, and tastes like a watermelon, then you can call it a cherry if you like. It's still going to be a watermelon. My main point in this being that yes you can call someone a 14 year old, but if they don't look and act like a 14 year old then who really cares? How many of you that have actually been to Japan have seen 13-14 years old that look like grown people(I'm 5'9" and I look down on most adults there)? Very few, and those are often halfus(if this term offends anyone don't post in here about it. Just pm me and I'll edit it to something else. All of the ones I know use this term for themselves though). My other point on this is that the average animated character looks like an average person from no nation that I know of regardless of their age. If they drew most anime characters to relate to normal body and age structure and threw the occasional character in that had overblown proportions I could understand making an issue out of it. But they don't, so in the fantasy world of anime age really doesn't matter. As far as the audience being a character goes Bamboo just assumed that we were intelligent enough to understand her metaphor. It's as simple as that. I'm going to have to agree with her on that as well. You can say that the audience isn't an integral part of the anime, but there are very few writers/animators that can afford to ignore what the audience thinks and get away with it. The ones that can are usually ridiculously big already, so they know people are going to buy what they make. They're really not ignoring the audience anyways. They just know they can take bigger risks and liberalities and still be accepted. The point I'm getting at on this is that the show is made for the audience. The audience is probably even more integral than all the others involved. A writer/animator may enjoy creating the show or not, but if they're told to change something they're going to do it to make the bigger bucks. If a character is a mature dignified women, but moe is the in thing then I'll just leave it up to your imagination what will happen. The big names can sometimes say no, but if they're not there yet then they're going to bow down. And most aren't there. 
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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If by "press this topic" you mean "respond to comments other people are making on this subject" then, yeah, I guess you can say I'm pressing it. Sometimes talking through a topic is useful and sometimes it is pointless. In this instance, the probability of the latter is no doubt higher than the former, but I am an unrepentant optimist at heart. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Uh...okay I guess that's up to you. If this is your reasoning though, don't go looking for sympathy because your previous comment is coming round to bite you in the ass.
Um...I'm not trying to argue against your point here but since when do watermelons have a discernible odor? |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Believe me, I ain't looking for sympathy. Dear old Dad always told me where I could find sympathy if I wanted it: in the dictionary, somewhere between shit and syphilis.
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Ralifar
Posts: 205 Location: League City, TX |
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I haven't really had a watermelon in years, I'm sure it has a mild aroma though(Go to google and type this in "does watermelon have a smell." Some weird things come up). My main reason for using a watermelon and a cherry was because a watermelon is rather large and a cherry is rather small. If you don't get the symbolism in that then you're either too young or too stupid(since there are some wadding of panties going on right now let me clarify that this was not directed at you ikillchicken. It was directed to the world in general). I'll give people that were raised by religious zealots a pass on that as well.
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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Well, I'm know I'm risking the wrath of the mods so I'll reply this one last time. Mostly what I want to say is that I'm on Blood and PJ's side. For those of you what to know what Blood said that was so awful, I happen to remember it. Don't worry I'll use the spoiler tags so you don't have to read the mean, nasty words. Unless you want to.
Basicallly, what he said was spoiler[ that Bamboo's reviews seemed like she typed them in 10 minutes right after getting out of bed.] In other words, he doesn't thinks she's a good reviewer. And that's all I plan to say about that. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Alright, firstly, my response was originally mostly aimed at Blood-, who knows he's on thin ice. I will not tolerate him going out of his way to insult the staff here. Which I believe he did. You can disagree with a review without also saying that the writer is stupid or incompetent or bad at their job.
That's really what this boils down to. You may not like what Bamboo said about [whatever show] but you don't have to also say that after nearly a decade of doing this she's a lazy, crappy writer who doesn't know what she's doing. Which is what you said, in so many words. To me, that's uncalled for and mean-spirited, and quite personal. And I have no reason to believe it wasn't just you once again flying off the handle and saying unreasonably negative things about someone you disagree with, while simultaneously making an erroneous assumption ("Bamboo would roll her eyes if she knew someone was defending her!"). It's happened before. It probably sounds overly sensitive, but to be blunt we take enough crap around here and really don't have to tolerate this sort of thing. You don't have to like what Bamboo does, but I don't have to let you be a dick about it.
You do this a lot - say something pretty far out there or potentially insulting and then add like a wink or a rolleyes and expect it to just float on past. Doesn't really work that way. A wink smiley is not a get out of jail free card to just say whatever.
You've admitted before you're very arrogant, and that's really the chief issue here. A lot of your "feedback" is extremely condescending and reads like you know best, have some vague expertise on editorial policy and are more than happy to tell everyone how to do their jobs. That's why many of the staffers here roll their eyes at you and are annoyed with you. You have a poor perception of your tone and how you come across. That's as direct as I think I can be about it.
Nope, it certainly is mean. I don't think you're an a-hole but I do think you behave like one at times. As do I. We're none of us perfect.
Look, if you fancy yourself such a hilarious fellow who jabs and insults the staff and then thinks the stupid winky smiley at the end means everyone's just going to chortle along with your oh-so-funny jokes then I think we've discovered the root of the problem here. I don't really think it's hilariously funny when you condescend to or insult my staff, even if you "don't really mean it".
Nah, there wasn't anything too personal in there. But you know I think you're a pain in the rear. I'm sure the feeling is mutual. |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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No, I'm well aware of the concept, and probably somewhat missed the point in my reply, it being a bit too late in the day. Works of art, and certainly entertainment, are rarely created in a vacuum. Entertainment especially is a collaborative business, and leaving audience out of the artist's or producer's creative process can hurt in terms of money (though doing so is often the best chance of producing remarkably original and successful works). I realized later she was objecting to the catering to the "wrong" audience--it being inappropriate for older guys to enjoy watching 14 year old girls for purposes of titillation. My attention went onto the continued general criticism of anime for sexual content that offends the sensibilities of a non-Japanese audience. My sincere hope is that Japan completely ignores such external attempts at re-conditioning their artists and producers to pander to Western sensibilities instead of their own. I'm aware the general public in Japan doesn't support otaku-targeted works. But they also don't have the same cultural history of hang-ups on sex and nudity in their entertainment that are present particularly in the U.S. I happen to think that's healthy. These mangaka probably weren't all that concerned about audience beyond their working in a section of the business that primarily targets otaku. I suspect they thought what they were writing was funny, and that any pandering is just an incidental effect of their chosen industry and their culture. Similar to the highly successful U.S. fairy tale "Little Joey Misogynist and the Three Whores", known mostly by its release title: Friends. In this instance, I think raising the lolicon flag high because of ages is off the mark. There's too much Bugs Bunny feel to it for me to think it's just another pantsu show for otaku. It's just a more or less successful gag comedy. The underlying condition, as with all these discussions, is still cultural. The Japanese mangaka wrote a story with these elements because they are in Japan, in the manga market there, from their own knowledge and sensibilities. I've seen enough pure pandering shows--Kanokon comes to mind. The same old pieces pulled from the same bag and re-configured with titillation as the primary purpose. HiMM is not one of those. |
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ReiClone88
 Posts: 187 Location: Inside a giant tank full of Tang |
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I also seem to have the ability to get most of them to balance properly without the included stands. |
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Ralifar
Posts: 205 Location: League City, TX |
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I've got a request. I'm really not trying to by a smartass or anything like that, but could you guys(PJ, Zac, Blood, and anyone else that wants to talk about it) start your own thread if you want to continue discussing your interpersonal skills or lack-there-of?
pparker, I'm going to agree with most of what you said.
The only thing I'm going to disagree with you on is that statement(assuming we're still talking about HIMM. It's hard to keep track with all of these erroneous comments going on all over the place[OK. That was me being a smartass]). It seems like many of the gags they use are geared towards a 5-10 year old audience, but then you throw the whole alligator and rape into the mix along with many other less than childish acts(well, childish yes, but not intended for young viewers). The show just doesn't do a good job with it's humor in my opinion. Last edited by Ralifar on Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I'm not terribly concerned about whether or not titles like HiMM offend the delicate sensibilities of an American audience. I certainly don't have "conservative" values, and I never will. That being said, what I wrote in the review reflected my own personal opinions and values. Even in the context of a gag comedy, I don't think it's funny to force a middle school student to dress up in outfits, and then drool on her when her skirts rip. She could be 24, and I'd still be upset at the concept. (Notably, I actually enjoyed Ikki-Tousen, which involved high school girls getting their clothes ripped off, because I feel the tone was different, even though that show also offends tons of people.) I certainly don't expect the Japanese anime industry to change their products to cater to the whims of American audiences, because the number of Americans who are buying HiMM is a mere fraction of the number of Japanese who are buying it. But also, there is simply a different cultural climate. The Japanese industry is not only okay with marketing such titles to older otaku-- they are counting on it. One simply has to look at the bevy of merchandise out there-- body pillows, moe dating sims, automatic masturbation machines that plug into your computer so you can use them while you're reading visual novels, etc. If Fox put out a Lisa Simpson body pillow of her stretched out in lingerie, blushing, the American public would flip their sh*t. My point is, I care not what the Japanese or domestic viewers think. My extreme dislike for HiMM is entirely from my point of view. I find the show distasteful, and I know there are plenty of folks who disagree. And while age is indeed artificial in animation, that was a large source of my distaste. I am equally bothered by moe girls who are supposed to be 18 as I am bothered by buxom, mature girls who are supposed to be 14. However, upon reading the review, someone who enjoyed echhi, fanservice-laden comedies should be able to say, "Bamboo thought this was trash, but I bet I'll like it." My sense of humor is a little dry, and that gets me in trouble sometimes. It's difficult to convey through text. My comment about tissues is about as serious as if I were to say, "If you don't like Cheetohs, then you hate America." I bet you $10 people would be offended by that, too, but in both cases, I'm just kidding. Last edited by ANN_Bamboo on Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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And yet a smartass is what you are coming across as to me. This is a thread in the Talkback forum dedicated to discussing "Shelf Life - Fists of Fury." It's not like we've been debating boxers vs briefs here. Nonetheless, I certainly hope the villain who is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read our posts eventually lets you go. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Not sure about the condescending part, but I'm very open to see what I'm doing wrong. Chuck this one up to interpretation. You've mentioned this before, and I've thought I worked out this issue, but appears not. As for the expertise remark, let's face it. Most of what I say is based on speculation given the subject at hand. Sure, I can just shut the hell up and move on, but who doesn't post around here without speculation? I've been set on several of my assumptions, and unfortunately, that's what it takes for people to fess up regarding the assumptions many carry around here. But please, duly note where my posts are condescending in the future. Public or private, doesn't matter. (Note: this request open to anyone feeling the same way as Zac)
Thanks for the feedback, and you're 100% correct. My interpretation of what I think I'm writing is often taken differently. Not to make excuses, but I get this in real life as well. I try to learn from example, but it's often my lack of personalization which causes issues, hence the arrogant position I find myself in. I'll try to add more "it would be nice..." type remarks to help tone my replies down.
Which I accept with great appreciation on both sides. I, however, take the silence of the mods to think my posts are okay.
Zac, I agree. As stated, I don't think I've done this, but you're under the impression I'm still doing this. If you're seething over the fact I stated ANN wasn't professional, then I can't say I understand your position because you've clearly taken a website remark, and attached it personally. To me, as a professional web developer, my personal website does not make it professional. That's how I viewed ANN, and you corrected me on it. Issue over, so I think.
That's your misguided assumption, Zac. I've never considered you a pain in the rear. Despite what you believe, I have respect for you and other staff. Of course, pointless if my remarks don't carry the weight to show it. How about the next time, you ask for clarification on my remark rather than call me out for statements based on assumptions. And I'll also forgo the use of winks, letting my "don't take this seriously" statements stand and suffer any consequences through personal attack, if I post them at all. Best olive branch I can offer given the vagueness of the examples you retain in memory. |
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