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configspace wrote:

While merchandise does make a lot of money, I have to presume for the moment that per-series sold, the DVDs and more so BDs are still significantly more profitable than merchandise. That is, selling 6 DVD (12 eps) brings in more money than selling a figure or two. Certainly more than an artbook or poster.

On the face of it, this would seem accurate. However, there's a significant piece of information missing.

In order to sell DVDs or merchandise, there's got to be a way for retailers to profit as well. Thus, the profit margin is removed from the statement above, and it's a significant one to ignore.

Taking from this, there's no way a DVD returns profits as much as a $30 body pillow will. While production costs for both are very low, the profit margins are vastly different to retailers.

I remember reading once retailers get less than $2 per DVD sold, but are at full control to receive any markup of a product. Where we see the MRSP, retailers see wholesale cost.

And that's where the comparisons fail. A retailer buying 100 DVDs will pay close to the cost consumers will, hence the less than $2 return. But for the same 100 body pillows, the cost of buying is significantly less than the $30 each.

This is the reason retailers across the US are dropping their inventory of DVDs. There just isn't enough rate of return to stockpile so many as they collect dust.

For anime revenue, merchandising has always exceeded DVDs in sales because of this. A $3 key chain may not return much, but sell 100,000 of them and it's significant (if not on par) when compared to selling 100 copies of the DVD.

That's why I'm looking at the "poor" list you provided as inaccurate and incomplete. It's absolutely impossible to label such in its entirety without merchandising numbers.

But I'll buy it for DVD purchases. Sales data has shown them to be dropping for several years now.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Kaioshin_Sama wrote:

So fitting. Sorry but that's just the way I feel.

Curiosity piqued when I saw three pages dedicated to a BD ranking list, so I enter.

My reward? The best image I've seen in quite some time.

And I disagree with it.

I understand the frustration people have with these "moe" shows, but it's typical anime. I've been watching for a long time, and I remember having this feeling dealing with the mecha genre.

It was all mecha. Goodness, it was enough to drive me away from anime for a while.

Folks, anime is a business. Like it or not, the producers are out to make money. This article is proof of this.

"Moe" is selling. And well. This cash cow is going to be around until people truly bore of it. Then, we're going to enter the next "milk the genre to death" bell curve.

I know some of you out there can't stand fan sub sites, but use them if you're really that bored. After all, it's not like you're going to be buying any of this "crap" (as you deem) anyway. So what's it going to hurt?

I enjoy this "moe" genre if only to make me feel good after a day of dealing with real humans. I'm never going to apologize to anyone for loving Aria, Strawberry Marshmallow, Kanon, or any other similar shows.

It's probably not appreciated when fans think of others as pond scum simply because they enjoy these shows. With all the bitching and whining about buying DVDs in the first place, isn't this the pro for those who are buying them? Sure, they may contribute to yet another "moe" show, but eventually, they'll also contribute to the next genre most of you will bitch about for milking as well.

Studios appear not to have the luxury to create new works as they're hired by the producers to milk a manga or video game success.

As an idea for all of you who can't stand this genre, group together and pool your funds together and hire a studio to make something new.

Let's see what series gets produced that will turn the anime crowd upside down, getting people to buy DVDs and merchandise when past history shows no one anime series has done it to this day that its genre hasn't been milked to death.

Actually I've been saying all of what you are saying for a while now, I just felt like I had to point out that the Slice of Life genre has it's flaws since so many people seem to think that being a part of the genre even if for one episode that adopts it's style makes a show automatically better quality wise. I have nothing against people enjoying moe or slice of life at all. Hell even I enjoy my fair share of it, but I question the use of it as a reason behind why something can't be poor.

The difference in tastes between Japan and the U.S. is reflected in this article. I see why there can be such vehemence against anything moe. ICv2 Top 25 Anime--Summer 2008

The Japanese market is different, though not as different as it appears in terms of moe, per configspace's numbers. I think the merchandising aspect is far more significant than supposed though. Even in the U.S., the merchandise market is almost 10X the DVD market. I really tried but couldn't find references that I know I've read indicating the merchandise market in Japan is far larger than the DVD/BD market. The argument that much of the profit generated by moe shows is in merchandise has to be true, though I don't know how much. BTW, I think this is why TRSI has done so well, because they deal in merchandise, not just DVDs.

In terms of why the market in Japan looks like it does, and probably where it's going, I still haven't found a better article than this one: Anime 'bubble' bursts amid slumping sales

I agree that moe is somewhat a fad. Markets do wear out after time. The boom in moe has only been this decade, and as the numbers show, they may not even be the majority of DVD/DB sales now. The 'bubble' article makes two reasonable points: The glut of moe anime in 2006 was a result of a false confidence gained from 2005 sales (the "boom" peak), and the way of the future is "more emphasis on quality rather than quantity". Many variables play into that, including allowing and funding younger untried talent in developing shows that focus on creativity rather than driving merchandise and disc sales to otaku. That may not eliminate moe, since again merchandise makes up a large part of overall revenues, but at least may help satisfy the anti-moe crowd by increasing the number of non-moe titles.

Fresh viewpoints are required to bring about change. But also the importance of the otaku demographic needs to shrink, which it will only do when sales decline far enough. I think moe is here to stay, but suspect it will lessen in importance. Bakemonogatari's numbers may be the first real sign of that. Again, not that it doesn't have moe elements, they are just understated in comparison to the story content and the unique animation style of Shaft. Moe has never immediately disqualified a title from quality either, as, evidenced by Higurashi, and to a lesser extent of moe in Natsu no Arashi.

Not that I personally have anything against slice-of-life, ecchi, etc, titles anyway (obvious from previous post). If they aren't just completely stupid, they provide a balance to the more serious fare. My favorites cross most all genres in anime, and my reasons for them being favorites vary. I am definitely not an elitist, and my criteria isn't just intellectualism in anime. Which is never all that intellectual in even the best of anime assuming you are fairly well educated and experienced. I enjoy mind-f*cks and clever combinations of philosophical, religious, etc, concepts, but it's still fundamentally entertainment. I'm not watching anime as a primary channel to understanding life. That's what books and actually interracting with people in the 3D is for.

I don't think the sky is falling for the moe haters, I just think it's taking longer than they would like for the storm clouds to pass Wink

pparker wrote:

The difference in tastes between Japan and the U.S. is reflected in this article. I see why there can be such vehemence against anything moe. ICv2 Top 25 Anime--Summer 2008

The Japanese market is different, though not as different as it appears in terms of moe, per configspace's numbers. I think the merchandising aspect is far more significant than supposed though. Even in the U.S., the merchandise market is almost 10X the DVD market. I really tried but couldn't find references that I know I've read indicating the merchandise market in Japan is far larger than the DVD/BD market. The argument that much of the profit generated by moe shows is in merchandise has to be true, though I don't know how much. BTW, I think this is why TRSI has done so well, because they deal in merchandise, not just DVDs.

In terms of why the market in Japan looks like it does, and probably where it's going, I still haven't found a better article than this one: Anime 'bubble' bursts amid slumping sales

I agree that moe is somewhat a fad. Markets do wear out after time. The boom in moe has only been this decade, and as the numbers show, they may not even be the majority of DVD/DB sales now. The 'bubble' article makes two reasonable points: The glut of moe anime in 2006 was a result of a false confidence gained from 2005 sales (the "boom" peak), and the way of the future is "more emphasis on quality rather than quantity". Many variables play into that, including allowing and funding younger untried talent in developing shows that focus on creativity rather than driving merchandise and disc sales to otaku. That may not eliminate moe, since again merchandise makes up a large part of overall revenues, but at least may help satisfy the anti-moe crowd by increasing the number of non-moe titles.

Fresh viewpoints are required to bring about change. But also the importance of the otaku demographic needs to shrink, which it will only do when sales decline far enough. I think moe is here to stay, but suspect it will lessen in importance. Bakemonogatari's numbers may be the first real sign of that. Again, not that it doesn't have moe elements, they are just understated in comparison to the story content and the unique animation style of Shaft. Moe has never immediately disqualified a title from quality either, as, evidenced by Higurashi, and to a lesser extent of moe in Natsu no Arashi.

Not that I personally have anything against slice-of-life, ecchi, etc, titles anyway (obvious from previous post). If they aren't just completely stupid, they provide a balance to the more serious fare. My favorites cross most all genres in anime, and my reasons for them being favorites vary. I am definitely not an elitist, and my criteria isn't just intellectualism in anime. Which is never all that intellectual in even the best of anime assuming you are fairly well educated and experienced. I enjoy mind-f*cks and clever combinations of philosophical, religious, etc, concepts, but it's still fundamentally entertainment. I'm not watching anime as a primary channel to understanding life. That's what books and actually interracting with people in the 3D is for.

I don't think the sky is falling for the moe haters, I just think it's taking longer than they would like for the storm clouds to pass Wink

I bolded and italicized what I think is the most important point you made. Truly the otaku demographic needs to have less overwhelming influence before there can be a greater variety in terms of the anime coming out each season.

As far as slice of life goes I vastly prefer stories like Welcome to The NHK over light hearted fare like K-On, Hidamari Sketch and Manabi Straight. If we could get more of them that focus on real life issues and happenings instead of just trying to be as cutesy and idealistic as possible (that's not life or a slice thereof to me) then I think it would strike a fine balance and improve my disposition towards this genre which I think is in a rut at the moment. I don't even think it comes down to moe needing to disappear from anime so much as there needing to be a balance. New talent and ideas would indeed help, but of course this is the Japanese market and they aren't exactly keen on new untested ideas ever since the bubble burst.

In any case something is going to have to give soon enough as the status quo as far as anime goes is not sustainable. I also think that some companies are starting to catch on to the fact that the overseas market is not going nearly as well as has been hyped and that if things keep going as they are with the whole catering to otaku specifically that they are going to lose it permanently. The question is do companies care if the market shrinks down to the level of the otaku and stagnates completely or are they more ambitious then that and wish for anime to remain a viable cultural export.

configspace wrote:

Jarmel wrote:

People again attack fluff because it's like rewarding someone with bad behavior, like E8 selling well. It's like the reality shows in the US where they get top ratings but they don't serve any benefit except keep people brainlessly entertained for an hour. I really have no interest in it because I don't watch those shows anyway but meh.

...rewarding bad behavior. If that's the way you see it, ok fine. But let people reward them.

Quote:

And here's the point you're missing, they don't prevent those shows but they discourage them. You can look at a list of recent anime and a very good majority are going to be similar to each other because at the end of the day, a company wants to make a profit and they know what sells. I remember some people saying that Gonzo failed because they didn't pander to their Japanese audience. Hence the reason why there is a second season of Strike Witches.

Well, fear not. Despite people's impressions if you look at the actual data, tons of those fluffy shows--slice-of-life moe, fanservice, whatever--actually do quite poorly (look at the oricon charts) just like everything else that might not be in the same category so it's not like they're being made with high hopes making big bucks either. There are only a few things that sell really well, and yes, some--but not all-- of that is also the fluffy stuff.

And yes, if you look at the anime list each year, you'd still see a healthy supply of other so-called non-fluffy titles. Higashi no Eden. Casshern Sins The long running Erin, Konnichiwa Anne, and Porfy no Nagai Tabi the year before, and a year+ ago, Dennou Coil, Ghost Hound, Real Drive, Detroit Metal City, Astro Fighter Sunred, Gundams, Macross Frontier, That's just off the top of my head, but I'm sure you can find much more if you look at the anime list.

Quote:

I could care less what is produced as long as there are some among them that let me think and challenges my views. I like discussing shows (please no E8 though).

Well I can understand that people want that too.... but philosophically speaking very few people can handle or even like their views challenged. They like to debate about it but it's not like they're going to change their minds. Most people use selection bias when it comes to their entertainment (and actually most things in life) no matter how intellectually stimulating it is.

EDIT:
to give you some examples:
Sketchbook: slice-of-life moe -> sold poorly
Akikan: harem, humor, fanservice -> sold poorly (very)
Kamen no Maid Guy: lots of fanservice -> sold poorly
Kimi ga Aruji de Shitsuji ga Ore: lots of fanservice, harem, dominatrix/tsundere lead -> sold poorly
Maria-sama ga Miteru -> pure yuri -> first season did alright and seasons 2,3,4 did better than other shows but still not great (Minami-ke did better per volume) > Yet 4 seasons were still made

think shows in other categories do better?
Jigoku Shoujo - excellent show IMO -> sold poorly -> Yet 3 seasons were still made for a total of 78 episodes, despite each season selling poorly
Itazura na Kiss -> sold poorly
Phantom -> currently selling poorly
Ristorante Paradiso -> sold poorly
Shikabane Hime -> sold extremely poorly
Skip Beat -> sold extremely poorly
Hatsukoi Limited: harem-like, some fanservice, relationship show targeted at guys -> sold extremely poorly
Rideback -> sold extremely poorly

By extremely poorly above I mean 400-600 copies per volume.

Shikabane Hime, Hatsukoi Limited, Kamen no Maid Guy, Rideback were all soundly beaten by Ristorante Paradiso which sold 1,200 to 1,900 per volume -- can you imagine that? (of course, Ristorante itself still did poorly)

So what does better?
Miname-ke 1,2,3 -> better, not still not that great, in the lower average of about 4000 per volume sold
Maria Holic -> better but not great sales, less than Minami-ke but better than those above
Planetes -> better, 3000-6000 per volume; but still can you imagine Planetes doing better than the rest above?

So what actually sells well?
stuff you already know: Kanokon, Strike Witches, Haruhi, Kara no Kyoukai, Code Geass, Macross Frontier, etc.
yeah, but stuff you may not know:

Sengoku BASARA - first vol sold 12,000+ copies, second vol sold 8,000+ copies, so far, still ongoing release
Pandora Hearts - 7,500 first vol, 4500+ second vol, so far, still ongoing release

and guess what? Sengoku Basara, is doing much better than Queen's Blade, although QB is doing alright itself (8000 copies first vol, other vol still ongoing sales, currently ~4000+ per vol)

Junjou Romantica 1,2 - great seller, better than QB lol
Kuroshitsuji - huge seller - 23,288 first vol!
Hetalia Axis Powers - huge seller - 22,926 - first vol! 23,292 - second vol!

and would you believe:
Toshokan Sensou (Library Wars) - 11,712 first vol!

In fact those I just listed: Toshokan Sensou, Hetalia Axis Powers, Kuroshitsuji, etc did much better than Kanokon (6-9k per volume) or Queen's Blade, or even Kannagi (10k per volume)

The king of them all is Kara no Kyoukai though:
first vol, limited edition sold 69,771 copies
first vol, regular edition sold 14,798 copies
and every movie (6 released so far) has that kind of sales Shocked

Be fair now. Alot of those shows were just horrible on any scale, Akikan being a main offender, and very much rightfully deserved their sales. I'm sure there are a ton of failed fanservice shows but I was mainly talking about moe. I need the source for these numbers as I would like to go through those numbers myself as well as the numbers for other show., I can think of a few that most likely had crappy sells but were more philosophical in nature, Casshern Sins being one of them.

DarkHunter6523 wrote:

Umm...Where in the TV tropes definition of Moe did it say that a character is only moe if they emphasize those characteristics at all times?? When did I assert my "own" definition of moe into this? All I used to reference moe was the TV tropes definition that you provided under the pretense that if you're going to reference it then it must mean you believe it to be correct.

I question their definition because moe is, as they said in the first sentence, "an ill-defined otaku term" that has been used to reference a vast number of things.

Yes, I believe that TV tropes definition is pretty accurate, and guess what: you're right, it doesn't say that moe has to be moe at all times. But then again... moe is a state of being characters will default to even if they get mad/serious/(insert non-moe behaviour here) for a brief amount of time.

I can now see that you don't even have your own definition of moe (whether it matches TV tropes or is your 'original' view). Now you are trying to hide behind "ill-defined" so you can excuse anyone you deem cute/huggable/endearing as moe. Please don't play "self-righteous god" here, OK?

DarkHunter6523 wrote:

Hentai_JP wrote:

DarkHunter6523 wrote:

Your definition is best described as "cute," not quite moe.

You lost me there...

---------

Bottom Line: Moe has a distinct feel I can easily recognize. You, Dark, tend to lump anything cute with moe.

Do you see your mistake here? Right after you quoted me as saying that cute isn't necessarily moe, you straw man me as saying that cute is moe.

I have told you what I think cute and moe is. So don't jump on me trying to convince me that I have my definitions messed up. You are the one with the problem.

Back to your original post: "Senjougahara Hitagi is "Tsundere", and since (I believe) "Tsundere" is "moe" character trope, Senjougahara must be moe". Tsundere does not mean moe... but if you could understand that we wouldn't have this conversation in first place.

Whatever your next reply is going to contain - I don't care anymore. I knew from the beginning that it's impossible to sway/"open the eyes" for someone you don't know (especially on teh in-ter-net-z). There is a fine thread separating moe from combination of cute, huggable and endearing. Sounds ridiculous right? Ever heard that "the whole is greater then the sum of it's parts"? In this case 'greater' means 'different'.

If your twisted definition of moe tells you that Senjougahara is moe because she is "tsundere"(I personally think she is much more than) - so be it. But don't freak out when others disagree.

Quote:

Jigoku Shoujo - excellent show IMO -> sold poorly -> Yet 3 seasons were still made for a total of 78 episodes, despite each season selling poorly
Itazura na Kiss -> sold poorly
Phantom -> currently selling poorly
Ristorante Paradiso -> sold poorly
Shikabane Hime -> sold extremely poorly
Skip Beat -> sold extremely poorly
Hatsukoi Limited: harem-like, some fanservice, relationship show targeted at guys -> sold extremely poorly
Rideback -> sold extremely poorly

I can't tell you how much the above depresses me. I have seen all those series, except for Itazura na Kiss and Ristorante Paradiso and I liked them all. How can Shikabane Hime being selling extremely poorly? That show RAWKED.

Anime fandom, I hate you.

pparker wrote:

The difference in tastes between Japan and the U.S. is reflected in this article. I see why there can be such vehemence against anything moe. <a href="http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13212.html">ICv2 Top 25 Anime--Summer 2008</a>

Hmm... out of the top 25 anime for 2008, I've only ever bought number 23 (except for one specific Pokémon DVD because I really like Meowth, and that was years ago).

EDIT: Of course, the only other "recent" anime I bought in 2008 besides Lucky Star was Ouran High School Host Club, and that wasn't released until October while that list only represents the first half of the year.

Sorry about this but, what the h*ll is up with all this quoting. For god's sake, just one line and the name of the user is enough.

egoist wrote:

Sorry about this but, what the h*ll is up with all this quoting. For god's sake, just one line and the name of the user is enough.

Just be glad Tony K. hasn't seen this thread yet. Otherwise there would be nothing left of us all once he finally finished his rampage. He seems to be on a crusade to stamp out the above sort of quoting (heck, even me quoting egoist is bad in his eyes), and I can't really blame him. I don't have a problem with what people have been writing, but just remember to quote responsibly. It wouldn't be nice if, after getting the thread back to a civil tone, we then got chewed out over something so simple.

Well, I'm siding with pparker on this one.

I don't mind people hating of a certain anime series, certain genre, or even the industry in general, but to insult fans because they're not buying what you want is IMO pretty damn low. Especially since I'm pretty sure almost none of us know the audience aside from second hand accounts.

It's a shame I understand people wanting mature anime series but when I see post insulting a certain section of the fanbase because they have different a interests than you, well that's as immature as it gets.

Anywho, I would to see more variety in the anime industry but hey, whatever gets gets the paychecks. At the very least I'm grateful that most of these derivative anime series are know, good. kannagi, Clannad, and Gurren Lagann stuff that doesn't scream originality but still great stuff. Which is more that I can say for television and movies. Like I said though I really do wanna see more originality, and the only way to get that request filled from an industry that relies on money is to well, use money. Something I think a lot of western fans have forgotten, not pointing out anyone in this topic out, at the end the fans that pay the most deserved the most say regardless of your opinion.

I'm not sure whether or not those hardcore fans are shrinking but they're stilling the biggest.

Anyway, on the topic of entertainment and intellectualism. In all honesty I've always viewed intellectualism in animes....excuse me GOOD intellectualism as a bonus. I and I'm sure, many other anime fan view anime as entertainment first and all other pseudo philosophical banering later.

I mean if intellectualism that important to someone, not trying to be a jackass but you know, it's called a book. Don't miss intercept this as anime shouldn't be intellectual or deep, My point is that different mediums have different advantages and disadvantages and if you want something deep or super intellectual, there thousands of book that do that better than any anime could.

I dunno gome on guys expand a little, you all wouldn't be getting burned out with anime so soon if you invested time into other things.[/code]

animeboy12 wrote:

I mean if intellectualism that important to someone, not trying to be a jackass but you know, it's called a book. Don't miss intercept this as anime shouldn't be intellectual or deep, My point is that different mediums have different advantages and disadvantages and if you want something deep or super intellectual, there thousands of book that do that better than any anime could.

See, I can't agree with that. Haibane Renmei does a great job discussing religion and Serial Experiments Lain discusses existentialism. Kino's Journey covers much of what a typical first-year university general philosophy course does. So Anime can be highly intelligent, it can be just as intelligent as a book. Sure, it has to get its messages and ideas across in a different way, and I'm not just referring to the visual aspect. David Weber (the science fiction author) can have a character spend several pages giving a soliloquy about tactics or equipment or social systems, but a character in an Anime cannot. At least without it sounding like an infodump and completely unnatural.

But, just because books can do intellectual debate easier than Anime, it shouldn't mean that Anime has to give up altogether. It doesn't mean that Anime can never be as smart as a book, just that it is harder for it to do so. And Anime has something books do not; a visual aspect. Surely that can be used for more than just entertainment; "pictures equals fun, words equals smart" does not hold up. I believe Anime creators have yet to properly use the visual aspect effectively to convey intellectual ideas (even Bakemonogatari resorts to on-screen text), bit I also believe it is possible.

After all, there are the three aforementioned Anime that are highly intelligent without rubbing it in your face, and just look at a non-Anime example, The Dark Knight. It has only about sixty percent of the running time of a twelve-episode Anime series, and yet it was chock full of well-developed themes, an intelligent plot and well fleshed-out characters. Sure, it had a budget that is more than the entire 2009 Fall season combined, but a lot of that went to A-List actors and the special effects. And are ideas and creativity anything but free, when it comes down to it?

I somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. Certainly those works you mention are deep and require a somewhat higher level of intelligence in understand the big picture or small nuances. At the same time though, there's probably hundred or thousands of GOOD (not infodumps) books that do it just as well or even better. For example IMO, anyone who shows an interest in the existentialism aspect of Serial Experiments Lain would be doing themselves a great disservice if they didn't read anything be Camus.

As for the visual aspect of anime, I view that as more as description of the medium rather than any sort of advantage just like I see texts as a description of books.(Sounds confusing but I'm really tired right now).

Also I never said anime should give up with trying to be intelligent ( look the my post you quote) but I'm really just saying that if intellectualism and deep storytelling is what you really value then you'd be best served reading books or a mixture of the two.Basically, you have options.

Also yes anime, or any medium for that matter can be used for more than just entertainment, but that doesn't mean it has to be. I'll put this upfront, Anime to me, is my hobby. I'm not doing for any intellectual pursuit or deeper meaning in life,and quite frankly I think that's the mindset of a lot fans. I'm myself am just looking compelling story and to have a fun time. Fun of course, can mean many different things such as a deep discussion about Kino's Journey or watching some good old slap stick. Either just remember that nobody has to share your mindset about anime or vice-versa and there's no reason to put anyone could simply because they choice B when you wanted them to choose choice A.

As for full use of the medium. There's no one way to "fully use a medium" I don't think you even can fully use a medium. I don't what Haibane Renmei, Serial Experiments Lain, or even Kino's Journey did with the medium are from have great story telling and implicit message that we the viewer saw, they didn't do anything different or use in any better than a some random episode of gundam least to me.

Bringing it back to that list, Basically look, It's extremely silly to get angry over the fact that people can spend THEIR money on things THEY WANT. Oh sure it might not be want you want but then again it's not you're money.

animeboy12 wrote:

Bringing it back to that list, Basically look, It's extremely silly to get angry over the fact that people can spend THEIR money on things THEY WANT. Oh sure it might not be want you want but then again it's not you're money.

I don't have a problem with individuals buying whatever they want. For one thing an individual - no matter how hardcore they are as a fan - is going to be able to influence company's decisions. Well, unless they make their own Anime or drive a popular petition or something unusual like that. Then there is the moral aspect; we should not be in the business of telling individuals what to do.

So I don't hate the individuals who spend vast sums of money on erotic merchandise, but, I do hate the groups of people who do that. Groups can influence what Anime gets made, and they have no moral excuse or protection. I say "moral excuse", but what I really mean is that they lack the defence of "you cannot criticise us". Eventually "personal preference" (individual or small group) gives way to "screwed-up and/or damaging behaviour" (big group).

Think of bike helmets; if an individual doesn't want to wear one then fine, it is his or her head. If however every cyclist doesn't want to wear one, then the number of deaths becomes socially and financially unacceptable. That's the sort of idea I'm trying to get across. One person buying a figurine of a naked girl from Queen's Blade isn't going to ~~hurt~~ influence the industry. But if many people buy similar figurines, then shows like Queen's Blade are more likely to be made. Since money is ultimately zero-sum, that will reduce the chances of an Anime that isn't about T@A (tits and arse) from being produced.

So, while it is not my money, it is my chances of watching mature Anime. And no, I don't mean that kind of mature, thankyou very much.

dtm42 wrote:

Think of bike helmets; if an individual doesn't want to wear one then fine, it is his or her head. If however every cyclist doesn't want to wear one, then the number of deaths becomes socially and financially unacceptable. That's the sort of idea I'm trying to get across. One person buying a figurine of a naked girl from Queen's Blade isn't going to ~~hurt~~ influence the industry. But if many people buy similar figurines, then shows like Queen's Blade are more likely to be made. Since money is ultimately zero-sum, that will reduce the chances of an Anime that isn't about T@A (tits and arse) from being produced.

So, while it is not my money, it is my chances of watching mature Anime. And no, I don't mean that kind of mature, thankyou very much.

My problem is that you're trying to somehow equate series like queen's blade and k-on as the "wrong" way of watching anime, least that's what I'm getting with the bike helmet analogy . I don't know whether or not we're just going to have to agree to disagree but I don't see anything wrong with someone picking k-on over Kino's Journey if they are more entertain by the former. There is no "wrong" way to enjoy or even use a medium. That kind of logic is used be people who are angry because the product the medium produces doesn't cater towards them. At the end of the day everyone has their own self-interest at heart. If the industry was producing things that you wanted but was still in the same condition I can pretty guarantee you wouldn't be complaining.

As for your (and mine) chances of getting more mature anime series. I dunno, I've always viewed myself and other western fans as just observers to the anime industry I never felt nor want the anime industry to cater to us or take too much from our critiques.

Like I said isn't really matter to me whether or not you're angry at the anime industry but please don't try to equate your opinion as somehow better than everyone else (I'm referring to that loser comment)

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Forum - View topicNEWS: Japanese Animation Blu-ray Disc Ranking, September 28-October 4

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NEWS: Japanese Animation Blu-ray Disc Ranking, September 28-October 4