Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Raining Men
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MorwenLaicoriel
 Posts: 1617 Location: Colorado |
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Ha, when I was just getting into anime I would swear up and down that I hated harem shows. And then I realized that I'd been watching Pretear and enjoying it--and not just that, but part of the reason I liked it is I found the guys really cute. I hadn't heard the term "reverse harem" at that point, but I still realized that I was basically watching a harem show for girls and shut up pretty quickly.
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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A good discussion this week (which was needed after the painful "not rape if it's two men" discussion of last week). I think you hit on a lot of the important points about the differences between harems and reverse-harems (gender stereotyping by media for the win!
 ), and I love the idea of a clientele genre.
I chuckled a bit when you said this, because you're right. I mean, Vagabond is eye-candy to this particular female. Miyamoto Musashi... :drool: |
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Pseudonymous
Posts: 4 |
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I agree with you and pparker. Casey's double standards and casual politcal grandstanding are tiresome and narrow-minded. They prettymuch undermine whatever comments and arguments she tries to make on matters regarding sex, gender, and morality as well as degrades the integrity of the Chicks on Anime columns. As for the article, it was good to point out that male leads in harem shows have improved and the immature, poor behaviour is being replaced by more mature and likable qualities. I seriously hope this trend continues, as it graduates these harem shows from being simply banal male wish fulfilment into more plausable, enjoyable stories. |
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lebrel
Posts: 374 |
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Nonono. Fanservice. Men making doe-eyes at each other is the girl-audience equivalent of panty shots.
The way host clubs play out in manga has little to do with real life. The actual customers of host clubs are mostly hostesses and other entertainment- and sex-industry workers, looking to unwind and be pampered after a long hard night of flattering tipsy salarymen on expense accounts. |
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ArthurFrDent
 Posts: 466 |
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can't think of anything I've seen that was reverse harem, so my thoughts on it would be a little theoretical... but I'm curious about the INTENT of the protagonist [m or f], and how that plays within the story.
I don't think that most guys in harem stories don't have redeeming qualities, but they certainly didn't ask for the situation. That is how the story progresses. From their perspective a buncha girls showed up and made their lives hard. That is how many harem-shows I've seen play out. He doesn't say "woman where's my food?" Two different girls show up with food, what's he going to do, not eat it? Some of the more insightful shows, will have him realize that there is a trap there, and accepting the food is going to cost him. Probably in a way he doesn't yet understand. From that persepctive, the women are competing with each other, he is a sideshow to that. Indeed, in many situations, he doesn't want that. They are making HIS life, how they think it should be. In true milquetoast fashion, he doesn't have a clue how to fix that, but likely knows that in making a decision, he will hurt numerous people. In Tenchi's case, all of those women have interplanetary weapons, which might give one pause. In the case of DearS, Ikuhara is a decent enough sort, but he doesn't like upheaval in his life, because he's had to much of it, so he didn't ask for the situation he got. The construction of the story forces him to do something he doesn't want to do. Same with Tenchi, same with Negi, etc. When we reverse the genders, you'd expect to see a different dynamic, because we want different things... Guys are wired to want to protect, besides having nosebleeds So you see males in both genres doing that. Regardless if it's 5 guys protecting one protagonist girl, or one protagonist guy protecting 5 women interested in him. It doesn't matter what he is protecting them from, but this is why sitting up all night with a girl who is crying on your shoulder is just something that you do. She needs you, you deliver. What women of both genres want may be entirely different, and that is what drives the stories, no? I don't think it is unusual to have one person in a group of people form a focal point. It happens in real life, it happens in stories, and it makes the point of view for the viewer a key interest. The stories would be short if all the people in the interested group were reacting in the same way. That is why the number of people who are in love with the protagonists varies from friends to crushes to soulmate. In a reverse harem, is the protagonist aware of what she wants from the guys she is surrounded with? Does she have a hard time deciding if she should choose one over another, or make any choice at all? Importantly, who is DRIVING the relationships, who is pulling them together? This may be an important single difference between the genres [and the genders]... The milquetoast hero, is often not looking for anything, or perhaps he'd like to have a girlfriend, maybe. It is the women in his life that have decided they want him, for various reasons. Often having to do with the idea that he couldn't possibly like being the way he is/living alone/eating what he eats/etc. The idea of taking care of him [perhaps regardless of how he feels about it]. I'd like to know in the reverse harems, how this aspect is treated, or perhaps absent. Does the focus girl try to change all these guys she is surrounded with, or do they try and change her? Is their number one concern protecting her, or taking care of her? [sometimes subtle distinctions to be sure.] Does she take care or protect back? For me, where a lot of these sorts of arguments hinge or fall apart, is on the perspective of the protagonist. What is their intent? That is also what separates a harem [and maybe a reverse harem?] from a show with an excess of one gender circle of friends... Ah! My Goddess isn't a harem, because Kei is only interested in just one girl. For that reason, I wouldn't classify Love Hina as one either, because Kei is only interested in Naru. His intent is only for her, regardless of how the others feel about him. He's a friend to them, especially Motoko. Tenchi [Muyo] on the other hand certainly is, because he doesn't make a decision, and maybe he can't make one. But he IS willing to protect any of them. I can't imagine that a revharem is simply the antithesis to that, just because the genders and their POV's are reversed, but I would expect what the stories focus on to be different. That goes to the point that all the revharem guys are rich and accomplished, and that all the harem girls are stacked and cook well. If those stories are an extension to R/L as all stories are to an extent. What do genders actually look for in our opposites? Wouldn't we expect that to be written in? Are there stories where either genre is populated by a harem or revharem of boring normal people? Does the broke loser guy ever get the girl without some sort of fantastic transformation? Does the boring loser girl ever win without the same? I suppose universally it is the Heart of Gold that makes the difference, in all cases, but that drives the transformations. I kinda left the gender politics of all this out, becasue I really look at each story from the inside of it's universe out... How and what the writers put there, is a different horse. If they are trying to show how different people would be looking mates, I don't really see that crossing too many lines. Would we assume it's misandric to have all these 'milquetoast' guys be seemingly incapable of their own existance without their lovely female harems to support them? Most male protagonists are written that way. As needing the gentle civilization of women in their lives to make it complete. maybe it's just a small thing. Certainly we can all trot out examples to prove this or that, and maybe I'm just missing them all... YMMV |
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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ArthurFrDent, It's interesting that you bring up "choice" because one of the things I've actually noticed about harem and reverse harem shows is that often (not always, but often) in harem shows, for whatever reason, the male protagonist never chooses which among the attending ladies he wants to be romantically involved with (for example, Tenchi) while in reverse harem shows there is always a major romantic interest and the story culminates when that interest comes to fruition (Fruits Basket, Pretear). This could also be part of that difference between what men and women want. Men may fear hurting the other women by choosing one, but as we've all heard in the past, it's sort of a fantasy wish-fulfillment for a man to be doted on by multiple women at once, and maybe he doesn't want to give all that attention up. While on the other hand, women might enjoy the attentions of multiple men, but what they "really" want is the exclusive affections of one in particular.
And, when did you change your icon? I didn't recognize you at first (until I read through the post and decided to go back up and see who'd posted it). 
Joe Mello, the opposite of a "maid" show is a "butler" show. |
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corinthian
Posts: 264 |
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I, for one, find Casey's viewpoints quite welcome. Gender is one of the things in society, and especially in media, that could use more examination. And the fact that somebody thinks saying there's a difference for genders is being "openly hostile" shows just how important it is to examine. I wonder just how much "consideration to the benefit of humanity" went into dismissing and insulting the idea of a problem in something so fundamental.
It's easy to say things should be equal in every situation, but that kind of ignores the fact that they aren't. And honestly, I think Hilary Clinton and Condolezza Rice would be the first to attest to that. You never heard anybody question Obama's, Biden's, or even the crazy guy from Alaska's ability to respond to a threat based on his gender did you? And if nothing else, this is an amateur opinion column. Casey has every right to express her opinion as it applies to the topic at hand. I hope she does. (and yes, because it does make a difference, I am male) |
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soundofsilence
Posts: 17 |
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The remit of Chicks on Anime is to discuss "today's anime issues from women's points of view". Gender politics comes along with that - no object of art is in a vacuum from the culture from which it is created, and the gender politics of anime and manga cultures is something that's evidently interesting to discuss. Even in the very first Chicks on Anime, political gender issues have been discussed - how being a woman in the industry affects your job prospects.
Casey comes off to me as the most comfortable with discussing gender issues of the three Chicks, as she's had to explain some issues to the others in-column. I feel as a result of this that the column typically ends just as it's getting interesting. |
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Dark Elf Warrior
 Posts: 228 |
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For some reason, it seemed like Chicks On Anime went off topic. I thought they were going to talk abot reverse-harem shows in general, not the different types and which ones they like.
And yes, I think dressing men up as women is degrading. Why would someone want to dress a man up as a woman? Sick.
I'm a woman, and I agree with you. I hate how men can be portrayed in "reverse harem" shows, just like how I hate how women are portrayed in harem shows. Like I said earlier, dressing a man in women's clothes is degrading toward men, and anyone who thinks that it's okay is sick. I also think it is degrading when the women walk around half naked. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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I just want to state for the record that I agree with pparker but not Dark Elf Warrior.
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neocloud9
 Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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Eh, a bit harsh there. If someone were literally forcing a man to dress up as a woman against his will in real life, that'd be one thing. But anime is meant primarily as entertainment and the notion of men crossdressing for comedic purposes is certainly nothing new. Some women find cutesy stuff like that to be endearing. Like if you put a big, tough guy in a bunny suit. It might be a little odd to you if that's not your cuppa, but it's definitely not what I'd call "sick." |
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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I've always had the impression that the CoA discussions are meant to be jumping off points for forum discussion. They seem to both welcome and encourage the discussion to take new form here, after the formal "column" ends. I personally wish they'd participate more in the discussion afterwards, but we can't exactly expect them to take even more time out of their lives to devote to one specific thing. |
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ittoujuu
Posts: 164 Location: SoCal |
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Ah, good discussion; I actually have to come out of super-lurking to comment.
I think one really important element that wasn't taken into account in defining what a harem or reverse-harem show is is the element of "physical proximity." In the actual harems of old, the ruler had fairly ready access to his bevvy of beauties, although they were perhaps not his daily consorts. I think the part of that we carry over in today's definition is the more-or-less "ready access," and from modern convention, we mix in the idea that the affected characters mix and mingle more often than an actual ruler and a lady from his harem would. The first tricky part is figuring out if there is a certain magic number where it goes from a love-triangle/square/etc to what we'd recognize as a harem. For me, that number is "above three," but that's also with the condition that all harem or reverse-haremites will stick it out for at least a good stretch of time, in spite of what the central figure's personal opinion about them is (and in the case where there is a clear and obvious preference, does that make it a harem?) To bring this back to the earlier idea, in some cases, steadfast affection can be swapped out for actual proximity, creating a "harem" situation in which not all parties necessarily have to love the central character, but just be around as potential eye candy for the target audience. Not every character in Fushigi Yuugi was hung up on Miaka, and not all the female residents of the Hinata Inn found Keitaro an appealing male specimen, but it would be hard to argue against those shows being definite harem/reverse-harem shows. Actually, I don't even think I can name a series that would qualify as a harem/reverse-harem show where all of the harem-ites carried equal torches for the lead character. With a school series, it's difficult to typecast it as a harem show unless the characters do a lot outside of school, because school as it is has enough structure that it's a "stronger" social structure than the harem (if milquetoast dude ends up in class 1-A and the five girls who adore him land in either class 1-B or 1-D, their super love-love power isn't going to magically cause them to be in the same class). In the earlier seasons, Ranma 1/2 had a lot of school goings-on, but I think it establishes a claim as a sort-of-harem show based on what goes on while the cast isn't at school. In fact, the central structure is the Tendo family's dojo, and most of the cast members drop by it often enough that it's sort of like they're vagrant residents anyway. But indeed, Ranma has no less than four would-be fiancees (and that's just in his natural guy form...), and they appear with reasonable enough frequency to give the series a claim to harem fame. At the same time, I don't know if I'd classify Ah! My Goddess as a harem show, because of the three Goddesses, Skuld may have a childlike crush on Keiichi, but Urd just likes to play around to make him squirm. Belldandy is the only legit romantic interest that lives in the house. Other romantic rivals all come from the outside, and I'd regard them as legitimate contenders in the framework of just romance. So, to shortlist it, I think these are crucial factors in deciding whether or not a show is a harem show. 1. Close Proximity / Accessibility - Does the protagonist have the ability to be around the haremites often? Bonus points if they live near each other, with each other, or at least in the same neighborhood. 2. How many of the haremites, when you get down to brass tacks, are well-disposed toward the protagonist (this is when you strip away the "Hmph! How could I like an idiot like him/her?!" veneer)? 3. How many characters would you place in the protagonist's harem or reverse-harem? Is it a number that strikes you as unusual? Of course, there are other problems in defining harem/reverse-harem. By its very nature, a series that showcases one guy or girl's dealings with several other members of the opposite sex is bound to be called a "harem show," regardless of whether or not the activities undertaken had any romantic undertones or intentions. I'll use two examples of series I've seen some up, but have not finished. To Heart fit enough of the qualifications of harem that I'd feel solid classifying it as such. But what about Clannad? Is a show about a central guy character getting caught up in the problems of a couple girls "harem" just by that fact? In that case, maybe we'd be wrong in classifying "harem/reverse-harem" by the relationship of the haremites to the protagonist, and instead should be looking outside. I wouldn't call Clannad a harem show based on the characters' own interrelationships, but since it showcases a number of variously-appealing girls to the viewer, it could easily be said to be a "harem to the audience," with a pick-your-favorite spirit conveyed in the general air. But...yeah, that's my take on things. Good show~ Last edited by ittoujuu on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaela Seoreh
Posts: 1 |
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In response to Sara's question of visual novels for women in Japan, I believe such games have been around as long as their counterparts for men, some of them even being popular enough to have been brought across the ocean to America. One example that comes to mind is 'Yo-Jin-Bo: The Bodyguards', which was translated and released in PC format by Hirameki International in 2006. Hirameki International released an entire line of visual novels (I'm not quite sure how many of which were also aimed at a female audience) which I can only assume were incredibly unsuccesful, as they closed their doors in January of 2008.
A full summary for 'Yo-Jin-Bo' as well as a cast list with the many male romantic options in the game can be found in the link provided. http://www.jbox.com/PRODUCT/HIRA016[/url] |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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I often enjoy discussions about politics in anime, and obviously Chicks is going to involve that from a gender angle. What I do personally object to is someone promoting the concept of it's okay to attack someone purely because they can be included in some demographic. Look up the word "insult". There's no concept of retribution or provocation or any other motivation for insult besides self-decided, self-originated harmful intent. It even means physical injury. Her slogans promote undeserved disrepect, antagonism and obvious lack of consideration or tolerance towards a generalized group defined by gender or status in society. If you want your kids to grow up pre-judging and treating people in that way, then feel free to write her mantra on the refrigerator. IIRC, people lost their lives on U.S. streets battling that very concept, but whatever. Casey has a political mission, and that mission inevitably colors every commentary she makes on anime. Again, I don't care that much, and sometimes what she says is interesting. But tossing out incidiary slogans is not "political discussion", nor is a constant use of a public stage to promote a specific political viewpoint. The odd thing is, I read some of Casey's blog and agreed with much of what she said. I make an effort to try to understand and at least acknowledge other viewpoints than my own while filtering out the noise. I lean to the conservative side where it involves personal responsibility for one's choices and consequences and not blaming anyone else for one's lot in life. But one of my best friends, if he were king, the United States would be communist (which wouldn't be bad if you were king). As someone mentioned, most of her commentary on anime is somewhat undermined by an obvious political agenda, so that I can't rely on her opinions for judging the entertainment value of a show. If you doubt that, go read the Vol. 1 xxxHolic review, the one about avoiding the title because "it consistently advances such a militantly conservative libertarian view of the world". It actually gets worse from there, if you can believe that, essentially telling Liberals to avoid the show. That sort of commentary fills up forums and sells ads, but doesn't help anyone decide on what anime to watch. It's what makes Fox News number one. My intention wasn't to fire up a discussion of Casey. But her position as an anime commentator doesn't mean she has free rein to promote these attitudes unanswered, unless I've missed something here. And now I wish I could just say back to the harem with a smiley--because I'm enjoying that discussion, but I'm pretty sure that won't work, and I only have myself to blame... |
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