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2004 Year in Review


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JackBassV



Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Coventry, England
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:51 pm Reply with quote
Kusanagi-Kei wrote:
I think that people who download and have the capability to download (i.e. high speed internet access) do not buy as much as the normal non-internet heavy user, or non-BitTorrent user or the 56kb/s dial up user. I know a lot of friends who do not have such capability to download fansubbed anime, and they have huge amounts of anime DVDs, literally hundreds like 400 anime DVDs. They are happy with their purchases, and enjoy both subbed and dubbed versions of the anime.


That strange, Out of my anime loving friends, I'm the only one to DL large amounts of anime, but I also buy more than them.

Just to put things in context, I have over 100 anime DVDs, mostly imported from the USA.

The problem is most of the Anime I DL won't be released outside of Japan, and my Japanese is still quite poor.

If the Anime companies released DVDs with English subtitles, I'd been buying things like Maria-sama ga Miteru direct from Japan.

JBV^_^
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Copper Rings



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Somewhere there is sunshine :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:38 pm Reply with quote
I have to disagree with what some people are stating about fansubs. I don't think the age of fansubs is over yet, I think we still need them. Frankly, there are still some shows that are just too "Japanese" for a commerical market, and will never see the light of day in the english market. A company has to think of the bottom line always, and shows that they think are risky won't be touched. Someone fansubs a series, the show gets some play, and *if* the market will bear it, a company will pick it up. That is how it's always played out, with the fans taking the risk and creating buzz. What bothers me just a bit is the "not your god given right" to watch anime and other sentiments. Admittely it isn't, and not buying a title does not help. But a company sitting on a title for months, and then not releasing it at all isn't cool. It may not be our right to watch anime, but if you're going to buy the rights to it, do something with it and soon.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:05 pm Reply with quote
I have no problem with downloading unlicensed series (as long as the Japanese companies don't have a problem with it), but it's not that simple anymore. In the old days, there really was more of a "fansubbers code" wherein titles were only passed around until they were licensed. There are still a few sites that do this, but, for the most part, nobody seems to care anymore. They go so far as to rip the R1 DVDs for you and put them up on torrent sites. Some, (one in particular, who will remain nameless) rip the R1's and then procede to create a sub only fansub (although one must wonder if they actually translate anything, since they would have a professionally done sub to work from). Some sites have complied with C&D letters, some have blatantly ignored them. This is what hurts the industry. Nobody has patience anymore and everybody wants stuff for free. (nobody=most people, everybody= lots of people.. Laughing) If fansubbers in general would be a little more respectful of the industry they supposedly like/love then it wouldn't be so bad.

Copper Rings wrote:
But a company sitting on a title for months, and then not releasing it at all isn't cool. It may not be our right to watch anime, but if you're going to buy the rights to it, do something with it and soon.


When a company licenses a series, they do not "just sit on it". There is quite a bit of work in doing professional translation, writing an ADR script, and getting a show dubbed. Not to mention having to shoot revisions back and forth with the Japanese licensors and things of that nature. If they license a title they never just don't release it, the exception being for some very good reason, like the licensor pulled the rights, the dubbing studio exploded and all the work was lost, as well as the video masters. I'm sorry that companies may not work as fast as you would like them to, but like I said, it takes time. If the VAs on a specific project are in any demand, they could be working on several projects simultaneously. The entire dub is not finished once a series begins to be released. Studios and companies have a limited amount of talent (both VAs and engineers and the like) to work with a very large amount of titles. Yeah, it sure would be nice if a company could just churn out a series as soon as it is licensed, but this is the real world, it doesn't work that way. And it doesn't work that way for a good reason.
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Necros Antiquor



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 571
Location: Funny in a car crash sort of way
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:45 pm Reply with quote
Tenchi wrote:
Steventheeunuch wrote:

How far is One Piece on TV, though? I mean these things do take time, afterall.


Since September, but modern TV programming executives are fairly fickle when it comes to giving shows time to build up audiences, and the most recent ratings available indicate a downward trend compared to the show's performance over the fall, when it was getting as "high" as a 1.7 or 1.8.

Also, I'd just like to note that according to Shonen Jump, the Baratie (called "Bistro of the Brine" in the crappy dub) episode where Sanji and the cooks are introduced is set to air fairly soon, meaning that they've just about reached the point where Don Kreig comes attacks the ship.

In other words, it hasn't gotten very far at all.
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 2071
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:30 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
When a company licenses a series, they do not "just sit on it". There is quite a bit of work in doing professional translation, writing an ADR script, and getting a show dubbed. Not to mention having to shoot revisions back and forth with the Japanese licensors and things of that nature. If they license a title they never just don't release it, the exception being for some very good reason, like the licensor pulled the rights, the dubbing studio exploded and all the work was lost, as well as the video masters. I'm sorry that companies may not work as fast as you would like them to, but like I said, it takes time. If the VAs on a specific project are in any demand, they could be working on several projects simultaneously. The entire dub is not finished once a series begins to be released. Studios and companies have a limited amount of talent (both VAs and engineers and the like) to work with a very large amount of titles. Yeah, it sure would be nice if a company could just churn out a series as soon as it is licensed, but this is the real world, it doesn't work that way. And it doesn't work that way for a good reason.


That is probably the most excruciating thing about being an anime fan. The process is slow as molasses and there's nothing we can do about it. Of course, I couldn't see why, with some advanced planning, there wouldn't be a product on the shelf within 12-18 months of signing.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Joe Mello wrote:

That is probably the most excruciating thing about being an anime fan. The process is slow as molasses and there's nothing we can do about it. Of course, I couldn't see why, with some advanced planning, there wouldn't be a product on the shelf within 12-18 months of signing.


Yeah, it really all depends on the backlog of work they already have to deal with. If they decide to license a show, it's because they think they will make money off of it. So if there are 10 shows one company absolutely wants to license in a year, then they'll do their best to do so, without necessarily being able to get to them all as soon as they would like. It's unlikely a company would pass on a show they thought would be a cashcow just because they were backlogged around the time they were negotiating a license.
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DogenDamme



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:51 pm Reply with quote
Re: Onna! 2005....

Ditto on Erica's statement about the "Year in Review" article on Onna!

Please correct the information about this event. Onna! is a JOINT venture run by two individual, separate, unconnected organizations--Yurikon LLC and Shoujo Arts Society--with a common interest in seeing women's manga and anime gain more popularity in the US.

Second, Onna! does not replace either a Yuricon or Shoujocon event for 2005: In fact, Yuricon II takes place in Tokyo, Japan in April, per the announcement on the Yuricon website (http://www.yuricon.org).

Third, while your "Year in Review" mentions most of the NYC-based cons, the article missed Yuricon, which just seems to further the omission re: not properly noting Yuricon/Yurikon LLC's involvement with Onna!

We want to end confusion re: who is running Onna! Believe it or not, one group does supercede the other: We've instead opted to share our resources to produce a third event, one that highlights the broad roles of women in Japanese animation and comics.

Thanks,

Paulette
Onna! 2005 Co Chair
http://www.onnafest.com



[/b]
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Tasha



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:04 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
I have no problem with downloading unlicensed series (as long as the Japanese companies don't have a problem with it), but it's not that simple anymore. In the old days, there really was more of a "fansubbers code" wherein titles were only passed around until they were licensed.


I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. I also download only unlicensed anime. And there would be very little problem if fansubbers stick to this rule, as well. But no, you can very easily find a sub for anime that has been licensed for years and that is where the problem lies. I just bought the Infinite Ryvius LE box set online last week, and had I wanted to, I could have downloaded a fansub and saved the $100 I would eventually blow on the series. Fansubs are hurting the industry more than helping at this point; but I think, in some areas, they're still needed. And I agree with whoever said that fansubs should continue to fansub a series even if a company bought the rights, but stop once the DVDs are actually released. Or to do what fansubbers did for Inuyasha. Take down the episodes that have been released, and continue subbing the episodes that haven't. For example, I'm currently watching Monster. (Excellent series, by the way.) What if the series were to be licensed next week? Although I would definitely plan to buy the series, I would prefer (especially since its slated at 78 episodes) to see the ending before my hair turns gray. So I would hope that a fansubber would continue subbing and just take down the licensed episodes as they go along. And if it weren't for fansubs, I wouldn't be watching Monster in the first place. But I'm definitely not a hardcore fansub supporter. It would have no effect whatsoever if fansubs were to disappear tomorrow. I'm patient and willing to buy.

Copper Rings wrote:
But a company sitting on a title for months, and then not releasing it at all isn't cool. It may not be our right to watch anime, but if you're going to buy the rights to it, do something with it and soon.


Well, I don't know what your definition of "soon" is but it definitely differs from mine. Nowadays, the hiatus between buying the rights and actual release is well...not very long, depending on the length of the series. For example, look at FMA. If I recall, it was licensed back in May. It aired on CN in November. First Disc coming out in February. Do the math. Midori no Hibi was licensed in June. First disc coming out in March. GANTZ was licensed around the same time....the first disc is already out. Basically, it usually takes 6-10 months. And that's not very long (at least not to me). Not only that, but nowadays, certain series gets licensed even before finishing their inital run on Japanese television. (i.e,Samurai Champloo was picked up in a flash. First disc already out) So I find your argument a bit unfounded, unless of course, your idea of "soon" is two weeks.
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Kusanagi_Kei



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 230
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:20 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
Joe Mello wrote:

That is probably the most excruciating thing about being an anime fan. The process is slow as molasses and there's nothing we can do about it. Of course, I couldn't see why, with some advanced planning, there wouldn't be a product on the shelf within 12-18 months of signing.


Yeah, it really all depends on the backlog of work they already have to deal with. If they decide to license a show, it's because they think they will make money off of it. So if there are 10 shows one company absolutely wants to license in a year, then they'll do their best to do so, without necessarily being able to get to them all as soon as they would like. It's unlikely a company would pass on a show they thought would be a cashcow just because they were backlogged around the time they were negotiating a license.

Indeed you may think that, but look at me. I'm a real otaku, I've bought the first volume of Please Twins! DVD on the 23rd Nov 2004, and I haven't even opened the wrapping yet. Why because I'm waiting for the rest of the DVDs and buying them all at once and watch the series in one lovely go. I can wait, surely.
I agree again with Kazuki-san there. The seiyuu do have their work you know. They don't just work on one anime title and ignore the rest of their work and lives. The translations, ADR directing, script etc. all has to be carried out and professionally, thus the time is relatively long compared to those unofficial fansub releases.

You people may be thinking: "Jeez it takes 18 months for them to release the DVDs in the US?" I'm not going to wait that long, might as well download it already".
Well the process of conversion takes time. However, if you look at the situation from a Japanese citizen's perspective. Do you think the Japanese anime fan would need to wait for the anime release? Do I hear a "no"?
Well, if you think no, then you might be wrong there. The Japanese anime fans also have to wait out for the DVD release as well, and also the TV release too. Don't you think that they get their anime straight away only because they live in Japan. They too have to wait for their anime you know? And their wait could be just as long or even longer as our wait for our US R1 DVDs.
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allmus



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:00 am Reply with quote
kusanagi-kei, you do know it's already upto volume 2 of the dvds for please twins.
i also have both volume 1 and volume 2, and i have read volume 3 is being released just after march(unconfirmed but still)
i also have downloaded the entire fansubbed please twins a long time ago and i do plan on buying the 3rd volume of it too.

i think one of the main issues here is that alot of the anime watching public download fansubs to see if they like the anime or not, i personally am a sololy anime watcher, i can't stand to read manga books but that's just me. so i rely on the good work anime fansubbers do to review the anime, it's it's what i'm looking for i buy it when it's out(which can be more than 1 1/2 years later depending on the type of anime)
like i can see "elfen lied" being rushed though(6 months-1 year) for usa sales, but an anime like "Futakoi - Twin Girls" could take well over a year to release as it's not likely to ever be picked up by usa TV channels and the dvd sales may not be good. yet still it would have those of us that want it.
all anime watchers have 1 real concern which is "i want to watch XXXXX anime"
all USA anime companys have 1 real concern "is it worth making"

and unforunatly the 2 don't always match up.
fansub's provide a valued service to the anime comunity that if it stoped would see me high and dry. without fansubs i don't have a medium to find out if i like an anime or not, without that option i'd never buy animes as i wouldn't know which ones i'd like, it's not like there's a anime shop on every corner in the world.
now on the other hand(and i maybe repeating another post but)
the idea of fansubing being ok (ok=some like of legel agreement about safe copyright laws) up until say 3 months before the release date would be a great idea, the only problem would be reinforcing it. i mean say "Air" get's licenced by a USA anime company in the next 1 month, that would mean everyone watching the fansub of it(at episode 3 at the moment) would be upset at the fact that even though they like it, and watch the 1st 3 episodes, they would have to wait more than 6 months atleast until it's release on dvd, in which time the anime(if it's just a standard season) would have been finished already.
i'm just saying it would be good for the anime companies in general to put out some kind of public statment saying fansubbing is ok aslong as it's not being released in your own countrys diolect(i think that's how u spell it)
usa would cover all MAIN english speaking countries(i.e north america, united kingdom, australia)
and once a released date has been announced for that lanugae then fan subbing groups must stop publiclly distributing it bewteen 6 to 3 months of release date(so that gives them 3 months to take it off there site downloads) also they should be able to keep the fansubbed in question if they purchease the anime offically when it comes out.
then those that don't complie will start to become a minority.

or another alternate would be that fansubbing episodes are only allowed(legelly) in sub TV quaily format, that would give anime watchers chance to view the series and an insentive to buy it for a perfect watch later on.
hell, i don't know how to fix it, if i did i'd have a job with them now wouldn't i. i'm just trying to get around the exicting system as it's gonna end in tears one way or another the way it's going now.
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Kusanagi_Kei



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 230
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:02 am Reply with quote
Yes of course I know that Volume 2 was released. And that Volume 3 is coming on the 22nd March. I already know that thank you very much.

The case for you seems to be that ou solely watch most if not of all your anime from fansubs. Fansubs are actually near perfect. I.e. the quality that they make out of it is absolutely fine and entirely watchable, and certainly above VHS standards, plus it also archivable.
This makes people want to keep these fansubs, yes, keep them. Do you do that, keep them I mean? What? Do I hear a "yes"? Ah, well we all know that.
Nearly everyone who downloads fansubs say: "Well if fansubs were to be taken away forever, then what do I have to preview the anime shows and determine whether it's a good purchase or not?"
Yes, indeed they want the fansubs as a preview. What does preview mean? Download, watch, burn onto CD/DVD, and archive/keep? Certainly not.
Preview is to watch once, evaluate and discard or be gone. But the fansubs are not airing on TV, which you only get one chance to watch. Fansubs are digital data contained in a video header which means anyone with a hard drive and/or disc writer can back up and keep. That's not a preview, that simply free-riding.
Fansubs you know have good quality, almost par to DVD quality. The more they watch them, the less need there is to buy the real DVDs.
And of course if no one buys the DVDs then the demand decreases, which thus may lead to a reduction in production.
If there were no fansubs and people mainly acquired their anime through purchasing the DVDs, then the US industries would gain more revenue and almost indicates that the anime market is booming, the anime fan wants more, they buy a lot of the DVDs and this enables better production management and services of anime DVDs in the USA.

Indeed, you may be saying: "What? Then that means I could be buying hundreds of anime DVDs which I don't even like!"
True, that may be the case, but if that's what it takes for better function and produce of anime DVDs in the USA, then so be it.

Also, look at it this way. You say that it takes "ages", or absoluetly "too long" for an anime to be released in the USA. Yeah, that may be so only because you have another source to compare the release to, and that is fansubs. If there were no fansubs, then the difference would not exist, and it would be just like waiting for a sitcom to be aired on US TV.
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allmus



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:23 am Reply with quote
and so Kusanagi-Kei, what would your views be toward anime that the usa companys never pick up?
at the moment there has been and still is a balance(of sort's anyway) but your right with the fact's that some fansubbing group's aren't removing them after it's licenced, which is wrong i agree on that, if it's licenced and has a release date within 6 to 9 months, then the fan subbing groups should remove them.

but if an orginal series of a cult anime that is good enough to get an english-speaking fanbase but not good enough to make any real profit from converting it to region 2?
that would be forgotten in japan as in your world, no fansubbing is allowed, and without the fansubbing of orginal titles most none-speaking japanese anime fans would be left out in the cold.
either way, they needs to be some kind of balance to it, yes we need fansubbing, but we also need them to stop giving it out once it's gone to usa retail, and also for those that have downloaded the fansub's to buy the anime too. it's ashame most of them fansubbing fan's think "oooo free anime" instead of "this is great, i'll get the dvd too"
but it's not a perfect world is it.

P.S i do burn them to dvd in data form, along with every other file in my 2 hard drives, it's called "backing up your data" and it's somthing i do every week or 2 as you never know when some stupid idiot is gonna release another virus on the net, i lost about 60 gig's worth of data last time it happened including all my codec's, games, and some home video's of a hoilday i went on.
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Blues of Hadal



Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 34
Location: america
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Whats with this real otaku crap?

anyway not that i disagree with you or completely agree with you
but if the job of fansubs is to catch the obscure titles that aren't going to be released

then why download something that is still in air in japan and just started
people should wait at least a year because companies license titles within one year(or during production) of its debut on japanese television
its not really to spread the awareness of anime since most likely the company would have gotten it anyway
so there should be a wait window of a year before someone labels a title as something that fell thru the cracks and needs to build a fanbase
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Sword of Whedon



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 683
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
anyway not that i disagree with you or completely agree with you
but if the job of fansubs is to catch the obscure titles that aren't going to be released


So that's why 15 groups are subbing Naruto, 12 groups on Gundam Seed Destiny (which everyone knows is already licensed) etc etc

If the people were after anything more than a pissing contest, what you said might actually be true
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PatrickD



Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Posts: 85
Location: California
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:00 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
please refer to the excellent anime-cons.org


Correction: That's anime-cons.com
http://www.anime-cons.com/
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