Forum - View topic
2004 Year in Review


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
weirdofu



Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 34
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:41 pm Reply with quote
I find the article on the year in review quite interesting, but I do see that there's one TV series that has sort of slipped under everyone's radar with the hype of the bigger series.

To me, one of the biggest silent hits of 2004 has got to be Soukyuu no Fafner. People compare it to evangelion, to rahxephon, etc, but its not. The mechanical design is intriguing, though sometimes the character designs may feel kind of funny, since its the same guy who did the designs for gundam seed. But in the end, its a dramatic series not about saving the world and humanity. Instead its about the meaning of existance and protecting the little place which you call home and to some, paradise. In the end, its all about the characters and the story.

It was an incredibly good series, in my point of view, in art, story, and overall execution. There were very few instances of character models going off, or they are un-noticable, which is a definite plus in the current climate of lost quality due to outsourcing. With all these pluses, its incredible that its still unlicensed.

Just wanred to throw this in, since I feel a year in review on the anime tv series front can't go without mentioning Fafner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2071
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:01 pm Reply with quote
To be fair, there are still some groups out there who are subbing older series. Sadly, they do seem to be far and few between when it comes to the group that basically has to do a quick and dirty sub and put it out within hours of the Japanese broadcast.

I don't know how much of a future the fansub role will play and how it will shape fandom, but certainly changes are already happening. I download a great deal, and I use them for the basis for most of what I purchase - if it hadn't been for fansubs, I can say that I would have maybe just a shelf or two full of DVD's - but instead I have over 300. ( http://www.intervocative.com/DVDCollection.aspx/godaistudios )
I maintain the belief (for now) that the majority of those who download the fansubs but don't buy the DVD's wouldn't have bought them to begin with.

I don't see eliminating fansubs (again, for now) as helping the industry, at least not until there are more practical ways of gaining interest at a minimal cost to the consumer. Certainly our numbers are small, but eliminating those who buy your product because of fansub previews may not help the profit margin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
Cgoten



Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 390
Location: Glenview, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:

I maintain the belief (for now) that the majority of those who download the fansubs but don't buy the DVD's wouldn't have bought them to begin with.


I would agree that that's true also. I'm sure fansubs/scanslations do cause some loss in profit, but the vast majority of people in the fansubbing community are college students who couldn't afford to buy everything they watch.

I guess this is a bad state of mind, but, I think the general consensus among the fan translation community is that translating is a hobby, and although it's illegal, it's no more illegal than downloading mp3s or accidentally running a stop sign. For all most of us care, no series would ever be licensed, and that'd be fine. We translate these series simply because we like the stories, not because of profit or licensing issues or anything of the sort. Although I guess it's naive to think that we have the right to translate these series, at this point, it's also naive to think that anyone will actually make a serious attempt to stop this behavior.

Personally, I've scanned and edited scanslations for quite a few different series, most of which are unlicensed, but I've done a couple licensed series too. In my mind, a story is a story, regardless of who owns the rights to it. To me, I don't think it's wrong to try to share stories we enjoy with other people. I can completely see why that's a bad way of thinking, but a great deal of people who download fan translations would never get exposure to the series otherwise.

For instance, can you honestly say that Hikaru no Go would have been at all popular in the US if it hadn't been scanslated? If it weren't for fan translations, there are plenty of series that go unnoticed. I guess that doesn't justify fan translation of series like Naruto that are destined to be licensed no matter what, but I think that goes back to the mentality I mentioned earlier of simply sharing stories with one another.

So... That's what I think about fan translation. It's a bad thing on many levels, but it's a fun hobby and I see no reason to stop any time soon. As long as their are good stories to translate, I don't think fan translation will ever disappear. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime My Manga
Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:09 pm Reply with quote
Cgoten wrote:
. To me, I don't think it's wrong to try to share stories we enjoy with other people. I can completely see why that's a bad way of thinking, but a great deal of people who download fan translations would never get exposure to the series otherwise.


Except that by sharing them when someone else made them, for a living mind you, and then giving it away for free instead of rewarding them is not exactly a cool thing to do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime
Kusanagi_Kei



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 230
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:52 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
Except that by sharing them when someone else made them, for a living mind you, and then giving it away for free instead of rewarding them is not exactly a cool thing to do.

Precisely. Well said Kazuki. Where do the people who work for anime companies get their living? You're taking their income away from them. Do you think that's ethical? I guess not.

The only feasible reason supporting fansubs is that they help spread the popularity of anime and that they help highlight those anime titles that were not licensed, e.g. Hanaukyo Maid Tai, etc.
Other than that, fansubs totally violate the WTO TRIPS code. It's against the law and technically bad for the economy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger My Anime My Manga
Blues of Hadal



Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 34
Location: america
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:09 pm Reply with quote
if you want to share it with someone then tell them about it or give them your copy, your physical copy of it, say you recommend it and why
stories belong to the people who wrote them
thats obvious
if you like it so much its ashame you feel its creator is worthy of mention or respect

most people who download are actually 13-17 white suburban kids who don't want to spend their money
thats the majority, but i have no info for its just personal experiance so in other words its a guess
but your guessing as well
you can't compare running a red light to distributing someone work, how they live. its like cutting off the hands of an artist
your taking away the livelyhood of a lot of people
its like someone forcing you to work for no reason and showing no respect for what you've done
its like making your mother do everything for you and not helping out
well past 18
and never even saying i love you to her and the works she's done like cook you dinner and whatnot
just letting her be your slave and not taking into acount the pressures of her job or the bills she has to pay
its extremly selfish is all
i don't care
i say this alot that i don't really care but i don't like justifications and i'm glad you made few
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Erufu



Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:35 am Reply with quote
I feel out of the loop, but what was in Negima #2 that needed to be edited? I haven't read them, so, if it's a spoiler, feel free to pm me about it. I don't care, but I don't want it ruined for other people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
ZODDGUTS



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 600
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:52 am Reply with quote
If I remember correctly it wasn't volume 2 that was going to be edited but the beginning of the manga vol 1. This was a very big deal on animeondvd.com lots of bitching which included myself. Laughing when it was mention that Volume 1 would be edited like the kind of editing that AS did with Tenchi OVA series they added digital paining over when the Tenchi girls wear wearing "explicit" bikinis and when they weere naked.

So the article got it wrong it was the beggining of the manga series vol 1 that was going to be edited and if Del Rey would have in fact edited volume 1 they would have edited the rest of the volumes too. Since it contains lots of fanservice.

Quote:
So that's why 15 groups are subbing Naruto, 12 groups on Gundam Seed Destiny (which everyone knows is already licensed) etc etc


Your overextartading sp? there only 3 or 4 groups actually.

btw I was a bit surprise about anime on TV article didn't mention the fact that Case Closed and Gundam Seed were bust on TV. Gundam Seed was taken off Toonami due to poor ratings and put on a crappy timeslot on late Friday 12:00 a.m. So that whole possible Gundam fandom happening again like Gundam Wing happened didn't come true.

And AS has already said that they won't get anymore episodes for Case Closed due to poor ratings too.

So not every anime put on TV ended up being a success.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
allmus



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:41 am Reply with quote
Blues of Hadal, if it wasn't for fan subbing i wouldn't have bought i single anime yet, hell, i probablly wouldn't even be watching them atall.
england is a large untapped country in terms of anime. at the moment we are limited to kid's(kids = anything for under 15's) anime like dragonball, big O, batman, teen titans, and justise league. all of which i have no interest in being over 20 myself.

without fan subbing i would never have saw any of the anime i have watched upto now, i would also have NEVER bought over £1000 worth of anime over the past 4 years(that over $2000 i think).

like i said before, the problem is a never ending loop, if the anime companies start cutting all fan subbing, then the majority of the public won't see it, if they don't see it, they don't buy it, if they don't buy it, the company loses revenue.

take love hina, that was made in 2002, it still has a strong fan base even now, the reason it still has a strong fan base is partly because desync is giving a free fansubbed online stream for people to watch, once they watch it(only 25 eps) they are so into it, they go out and buy the 2 movies and 3 OVA's, which give bandai extra revenue they would never have had if it wasn't for the stream.

i'd totally prefer some kind of system where it would be ok and legel to fan sub the 1st season of an anime, that would get the fan base gathering, and make the 2nd season of an anime show illegel to fansub, atleast that way they aren't hurting themself so much, ok they lose some revenue at the start, but they'll make up for it in the 2nd season as it would have gathered a good fanbase to buy it.

the problem will always be there, and it's "if i can't see it, i don't know if i'll like it, so i won't buy it"
all the reviews in the world on an anime won;t change that for me as reviews are always biast in one way or another, i mean i guy/girl who's into big mecha fighting animes is always gonna put them over a romance/slice of life anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steventheeunuch



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 2973
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:54 am Reply with quote
allmus wrote:
Blues of Hadal, if it wasn't for fan subbing i wouldn't have bought i single anime yet, hell, i probablly wouldn't even be watching them atall.
england is a large untapped country in terms of anime. at the moment we are limited to kid's(kids = anything for under 15's) anime like dragonball, big O, batman, teen titans, and justise league. all of which i have no interest in being over 20 myself.
.


Big O is not a childrens show. Batman, Teen Titans (despite it's look) and Justice League are NOT Anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:04 am Reply with quote
allmus wrote:

like i said before, the problem is a never ending loop, if the anime companies start cutting all fan subbing, then the majority of the public won't see it, if they don't see it, they don't buy it, if they don't buy it, the company loses revenue.


Here's what I don't get about that. Everyone says they have to "preview" anime before they buy. Since when was a preview watching the entire thing? Take a TV show like CSI or whatever (or whatever is popular in England) Do you have to watch EVERY single episode of it before you decide if it's good? Nope. Like I said, I got no problem with fansubs of unlicensed series, but there are too many people who go "I was halfway through such and such a series but now it's licensed, that's not fair" B.S. If people truly had to "preview" like that, then movie theatres would let you pay AFTER you saw the movie, IF you liked it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime
allmus



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:04 pm Reply with quote
Steventheeunuch, i'm sorry about the mistake, i was trying to get the point across that even at 2 and 3am in the morning that "type" of show is only the only channel in england that shows any type of anime.
i will never be able to watch chobits, or full metal panic on a channel, which is why i said it was an untapped country.
when i talk to my friends and say the word "anime" they start thinking of things like the akira movie.
if i turn to one of them and said "i watched a great anime last night", they say "what are you, 10 years old?"
until i show them the anime their like what the hell is he on about, and after it's more like, OMG where can i get some!
i;ve personally converted 9 of my friends(2 female, which was hard coz i have mostly eechi types) and they all buy anime now too.
Quote:
Here's what I don't get about that. Everyone says they have to "preview" anime before they buy

that's why i surgested the 1st season should be ok to fansub, that gives you an idea of what the anime is, and get's to loving the char's so that the anime companies can really screw us on the prices for the 2nd season.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Laton



Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:58 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Kusanagi-Kei"]
Kazuki-san wrote:

I think that people who download and have the capability to download (i.e. high speed internet access) do not buy as much as the normal non-internet heavy user, or non-BitTorrent user or the 56kb/s dial up user. I know a lot of friends who do not have such capability to download fansubbed anime, and they have huge amounts of anime DVDs, literally hundreds like 400 anime DVDs. They are happy with their purchases, and enjoy both subbed and dubbed versions of the anime.
Whereas the average internet user who has gained a lot of knowledge about browsing and file-sharing methods acquire most (like 95%) of their anime from just downloads, which I think is totally unethical to the anime industry. These people have formed a bias and one-sided argument for subtitled anime.



Well, I just need to prove you wrong. Wink
I have the possibility to download anime and I do it a lot. BUT I buy EVERY series I like, and those I don't like I just don't watch. And even MORE than those I like, because each time a collection box is going to be released I check on reviews and do blind buys. If I'm not sure I look into my fansubs and then make a decision.
Since 2002 I doubled my anime DVDs collection each year. So now I'm owning 200 DVDs plus those my friend wanted to buy for himself. (He doesn't like the idea that I own all series he loves. Wink )

Yes, it's easier now to get anime on DVD, but I really wouldn't want to skip all fansubs even if I don't watch them. I like to have the possibility to check out series.
(If I hadn't watched the fansubs of Full Metal Alchemist, I would NEVER think of buying this series, because normally I never buy series with more than 26 episodes.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Cgoten



Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 390
Location: Glenview, Illinois
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:33 pm Reply with quote
Kusanagi-Kei wrote:

Where do the people who work for anime companies get their living? You're taking their income away from them. Do you think that's ethical? I guess not.


Ironically enough, I can cite a few instances recently where fan translators have gotten jobs translating for ToykoPop and Viz. So, I don't think you can claim it's all bad. It has actually lead to some people getting freelance jobs, which I think is pretty cool. If you care for specific examples of this, feel free to PM me or something.

So, eh, I don't think you can claim it's a completely harmful thing. Wink

Blues of Hadal wrote:
if you want to share it with someone then tell them about it or give them your copy, your physical copy of it, say you recommend it and why


A few problems with your logic here.

Firstly, giving someone my copy assumes that they can read Japanese. The reason for fan translations in the first place is that most people can't read the books. Are you trying to suggest that text translations are just fine, but actually scanning books is wrong?

Second problem here, let's say I have a copy of the book, and I let a friend borrow it, and he can read it just fine. If I owned the book in the first place, and he just borrows it, then no more books are sold than would have been sold otherwise. He just borrowed my copy, and no one profits in any way. How is that any better than reading a scanslation of the book?

Blues of Hadal wrote:
most people who download are actually 13-17 white suburban kids who don't want to spend their money
thats the majority, but i have no info for its just personal experiance so in other words its a guess
but your guessing as well


In my experience, both the people involved in fan translation and those who download fan translations are typically between 17-24. I guess I'm basing this mainly on IRC, and it's always possible that there's a large population of 13 year olds who download off Bit Torrent or something, but in my experience anyway, I think the majority of the crowd is college students. Not that that justifies it in any way, I just don't think the majority is "white suburban kids who don't want to spend thier money", as you put it.

Blues of Hadal wrote:
you can't compare running a red light to distributing someone work, how they live.


Ok, but how about the mp3 analogy? Can you say you have never downloaded a song?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime My Manga
Blues of Hadal



Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 34
Location: america
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:45 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Ok, but how about the mp3 analogy? Can you say you have never downloaded a song?

i never even said i never downloaded an anime before, i've download 8 eps of naruto and 1 of bleach on my whole life as an anime fan. see how few you need to "preview", and i deleted my kazaa a couple of months ago so i havne't gotten a new song in awhile, the temtation is strong that doesn't make it right, know your self if you know you'll do it avoid it. it seems you thought my other analogy was correct then which is the more important one, your obviously ignoring it even if it did make sense to you simply to continue on what you were doing thats more like ignorance than anything else.





Quote:
Firstly, giving someone my copy assumes that they can read Japanese. The reason for fan translations in the first place is that most people can't read the books. Are you trying to suggest that text translations are just fine, but actually scanning books is wrong?


in that instance is when you recommend it, tell them what the story is and why you like it. state your reasons and if the person is your "friend" then you'll know what things his into and he know how to take your advice.

Quote:
Second problem here, let's say I have a copy of the book, and I let a friend borrow it, and he can read it just fine. If I owned the book in the first place, and he just borrows it, then no more books are sold than would have been sold otherwise. He just borrowed my copy, and no one profits in any way. How is that any better than reading a scanslation of the book?


the book is yours, its physically yours and you have value for it. you want the book back and you'll want it in good condition thats the BIG difference.If they liked it they would want the book themselves or start following the series from now on. with a scan your not letting them borrow something thats yours
you're giving them a copy of it. they don't care about it anymore and they don't need to get one from themselves and they can just get it from you or someone else without ever needing to buy a book and the data will be nicely saved on their hardrive for easy access.

Philosophers deal with reason and logic and this is how they arrive at what they consider moral or not(which differs from person to person)
but they know that their is no crime that the human mind can't rationalize even if its obvious that its wrong
morality should be above the law if its about something worthwhile
stealing for no reason just because its a law doesn't make it right, morality doesn't call for you to break that law to begin with
i think with a news resources that can tell you what is going on in japan tell you whats going on in japan its really simply isn't it. fansubs are given more importance than they deserve, simply by rationalization(they don't want it gone) but i don't mean to say that their completely useless
i htink anime fans have something that no other group does
we have the companies by the balls, so they serve us better
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group