Forum - View topicNEWS: Handley to Be Sentenced for 'Obscene' Manga in January
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KanjiiZ
 Posts: 661 Location: Central Coast |
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Are you joking? Does it sound like anyone is talking about that? |
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Vantos
 Posts: 102 |
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Let's just face facts. Even though this case sets no precedent, ecchi content in manga is now illegal -- if the wrong pair of eyes sees it, you go straight to the pen (Plea-bargains, you know. You're not making it to court.) It's so bad that a lawyer can't tell you whether or not a given image is obscene.
In other words, the wrong pair of eyes seeing it is what makes it illegal. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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You are really out of touch. You're talking about the Baby Boomers who did it all in the '60's. I'll be 50 next year. Look at the sterotype of the dirty old man. Master Roshi. Happosai. Now expecting a politician to say anything that might cost an election is insane. You don't think they have had their share of porn? Well hidden most likely. Problem is people go crazy when it comes to children. |
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Human_Instrumentality
 Posts: 32 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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Daemonblue
 Posts: 701 |
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And that's where we get into implied meanings and meanings that would be read into by a common person. Going by your statement, you were implying that it was no way normal for an adult to like them (referring to CP and by extension children), while it can, and will be, read as it was no way normal for ANYONE to like them. I was actually somewhat hoping that your reaction would be just this, as it lets me point out how statements such as that get turned into over-broad laws. Just look at the several cases where minors are getting prison time for *gasp* taking nude photos of themselvs. This is what happens when a law is made that was made implying one thing, but encompasses more than what is implied. The whole reason for anti-CP laws was to prevent adults from exploiting children, however the way the law mades encompasses more tan adults and goes down to children, whom the law was made to "protect," and has gotten to the point where the law is doing harm (sure, some could argue the kids that do it are idiots, but I digress). Basically, overbroad statements that can be interpreted to mean any number of things are something of which you should be wary, and is why there are several problems with laws the way they are written. Edit: Also, they're fricken drawings, they're trying to make victims out of thin air to better their own careers cause it looks pretty on a compaign to say you helped brought down a child molestor who in fact only looked at fake crap. |
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jr240483
 Posts: 4376 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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This is just a very unfortunate case. Hopefully the law is changed to protect free expression better in the future.[/quote] This definately dont bode well for all the loli otakus out there. if it was real child porn,then he deserves it, but normal hentai manga??? Come on now. These fools in Washington dont know two crap on anything. and i'm not susprised that most of them aren't saying anything about this that will cost them an election. Either way it really dont bode well. it looks like those loli dojins will have to go to avoid jail time, though this news might have me really concerned aboout the releases of strike witched and kodomo no jikan. cause if that can out a guy in jail for something this stupid,i'm really afraid they'll do the same thing to other series like those. |
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kayue
Posts: 17 |
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I find it funny, that when yaoi started getting published here in the US 5-10 years ago by BeBeautiful, obviously high-school boys were suddenly in "university uniforms".
Things had changed recently where in books like "Love is Like a Hurricane", high-school boys were again aged properly. At least almost all yaoi is rated 18+. On the other hand, a lot of current shoujo titles have high-school sex. And these are aimed at teen (or younger girls). Even non-sex shoujo like, "Black Bird" are so sexually charged, that I can get uncomfortable reading it. (Blood & groping). "Haou Airen", recently licensed by Viz, involves pretty explicit rape & non-con. I worry that great manga like, "Dance in the Vampire Bund" (whose first volume has a mostly naked loli on the cover) will get canceled or (horrors) censored. (By the way, the loli-vampire-queen is most decidedly a virgin. Key plot-point.) Now I'm female, over 40, have read yaoi, yuri, shota, loli, hentai, and have at least sampled almost all genre of manga. And I have no desire to go out molesting, maiming or otherwise bothering little boys & girls. In fact, the idea of such non-pen & ink actions are just *ICK*. And people I know feel the same way. |
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KrisEllieOphi
 Posts: 111 Location: Texas |
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There is that "Well, way back in the day, they were marrying them off at 14." Yeah...though it had a lot to do with life spans back then. You married young because you'd probably be lucky to ever hit 30. The point remains that it was acceptable then, yes. And you do bring up something else interesting. I'm not trying to excuse pedophilia, but I wonder if the psychology is something like..... Think about when you started having feelings for a member of the opposite (or same) sex. If that happened when you were 13 or 14 (or younger, or older), maybe the mind gets stuck there. When you first found them attractive. It makes sense. |
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Ottervinn
Posts: 21 |
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I didn't really want to argue or inflame anyone, I was posting my opinion, I didn't want to proclaim myself as some kind of moral champion. It's sad that he has been branded a child molester. And it's sad that people are so paranoid that this guy's private 'hobby' was ripped open by the postal service. I live in a different country to you guys, I've never really had my post delivered late, or looking like it has been opened. I agree with you, PetrifiedJello, a postal worker has no right to declare what's obscene and what's not, but I don't know the protocols for this as to whether he/she should have reported it. And while he did only have 7 of the more perverse titles, he did have a lot of other manga, yes, I saw that. And it was only 7, compared to just how many hundreds of explicit titles have been released over the years. But, I'm just saying that it's wrong for the guy to have had these in the first place. There's an innocent curiosity in explicit manga... but when there's children in the manga, even if he wasn't a child molester in really life... that just steps over the line for me. For me. I'm no bastion of purity and I have no right to stand atop the world and think that it should be run my way. I know that. And I apologise if it seemed like that in my post. I wrote it quite quickly before class... I'm sorry for having upset anyone in any way. 
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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In terms of what is and is not obscene I would refer to this famous quote by one of our own supreme court justices; "I can't define porn but I know it when I see it." What is or is not obscene is specific t each individual. The point brought up I think is the key here is that it's WHO sees it. The sad fact is the people "in charge" have a very different opinion then most of us on what is obscene or not and the unfortunate fact is they are who are in charge. My recommendation to everyone is write to your local and state congressman/senators about the issue and intelligently detail your issues with it. Bring the subject to their doors so to speak. It may have no affect but doing something is better then doing nothing in an era where it seems thought crimes can get you locked up.
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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I didn't take it this way at all. You're entitled to your opinion against such material, but as far as I know, you didn't strip the rights of another human being based on your belief it's wrong. But you and I would seriously be at odds if you took this opinion as a jury member and used it to apply a guilty verdict. It's one thing to dislike something, but quite another to brand someone a social deviant and ruin their life because of a personal disliking of entertainment. We can thank Tipper Gore for today's woes. I'm still shocked books aren't rated by those so out of touch, they still believe "hell" is a cuss word.
I understand you're one who can't seem to separate reality from fiction, but I must correct you in that these are not children. I understand many like to compare based on perception, but it's completely unjustified to expand this to a degree as to blur the lines. If anyone feels a young looking (but with an "It's a child!" mentality) cartoon character is being raped, sodomized, sexually abused, or offended in any manner, then have the cartoon character doing the offense arrested, not the reader of the story. |
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Ottervinn
Posts: 21 |
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Okay, so they aren't real life children, I accept that. However, even if it was a little secret thing of his, and he's a pretty unassuming, unremarkable person, it could have been much worse. If the guy really was a serial sex offender and had committed serious acts towards children in the past, and had several lolicon manga, then I'd be worried. However, thinking about it, I'm more inclined to agree with you that it's unfair to do this to someone who's never done a thing wrong in their life and can restrain themselves to a higher degree, unlike criminals who do commit these acts. You've won this argument, I can't think of anything else to say. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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This isn't a win/lose situation, friend. This is about people's lives. While it's great news you've opened your mind to understand the difference between true crime and manga collecting, there are still many more who need to make the same decision such that no one's freedom is taken from them. I'm going to be dead before I can complete my task. For the record, this isn't just related to anime. There's a reason I mentioned Tipper Gore. It's just a shame our opinions lost to her definition of "obscene". |
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Baltimoron
 Posts: 43 Location: Charm City |
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Good sleuthing on the sentence, but a few years ago SCOTUS ruled mandatory minimums unconstitutional. Federal judges determine sentence length according to a table. They very rarely assign a period of incarceration lower than what the table recommends and it's highly unlikely it'll happen in this case. A defendant has to be high profile in the right circles and/or assist federal authorities in apprehending other suspects. According to these two links ( http://www.ussc.gov/2009guid/tabcon09_1.htm / http://www.ussc.gov/2009guid/SENTNTAB.pdf ), violation of section 1466 is a level 10 offense. Handley will be rated a category I offender if he has no criminal history. That gives him a 6-12 month time range. His exposure may even be as small as 4-10 if he receives the (I believe) one level reduction for confessing. Federal law mandates that all sentences below 366 days are to be served in full. Either of the above sentence ranges make Handley eligible for probation. The problem is that as zone B sentences a term of probation would have to be combined with house arrest or some other community corrections program. That factor makes probation less likely. The good news is that sentences as short as the ones we're discussing are served in minimum security federal prison camps instead of the really nasty places. Edit: 1466A is distinct from 1466 and is actually a level 18 offense. Bad for Handley. He can receive a two level reduction for merely being the recipient and having no intent to distribute, but he may also be subject to an enhancement of five levels if enough images were involved. Factoring in the confession for the sake of setting a bottom range, his exposure is actually somewhere between 18-57 months, is zone D and thus ineligible for probation, and due to the elimination of federal parole must be served in custody for around 90% of the duration. On the lower end of the scale he might still be eligible to immediately head to a camp. On the higher end he'll likely be bound for a low security institution due to the length of his sentence and the non-violent character of his offense. In this scenario he'll be transferred to a camp once he's served enough of his time. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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... hentai IS porn, dude. My husband almost from the day I married him, went on about some movie called Fritz the Cat which I to this day have never seen, but it is Western animated porn form my understanding. Do not say my generation (I am on the tail end of the Baby Boomers) do not know comic-book porn. You show your dad a dirty drawing, I'm sure he's going to know it's a dirty drawing. If you are using the word "hentai" of course most people you work with (unless they speak Japanese) do not know what it is because it's a foreign word. If you call it "adult cartoons" or "adult comic books" I'm sure more people will get the picture. Maybe they've seen Fritz. It's by Bakshi
Why is he a potential child molestor for possessing alleged child porn when I can go see any fricken horror movie I want & no one's following me home or opening my mail? (that I know of outside the gaming mags & the few mangled letters I've received. Why does junk mail never get mangled?) I mean Freddy Krugar is a child molester the parents of Elm Street burned for his crimes yet he returns to molest & kill the teens (still children until they are legal age) in the course of the movies. Why did he have to be a child molester? Because the creator of the story wanted it. He could have been a regular serial killer, except the target audience is teens so the movie sells better if the victims are teens. As I said-Little Red Riding Hood. The Bible. There are plenty of stories out there portraying endangered children. How can we say these stories DIDN'T have artistic value? That's the problem with art. There are those who saw Mapplethorpe as art & those who saw his stuff as trash. Some artists feel called to push the limits. |
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