Forum - View topicNEWS: Handley to Be Sentenced for 'Obscene' Manga in January
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Human_Instrumentality
 Posts: 32 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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Like i said, in my experience people I know in your age range do not know hentai exists however you want to put it. They were unaware Sailor Moon, Pokemon, and other shows their kids watch have porn images of it circulating. I am not saying hentai isn't porn, I am simply discussing it as a specific type of porn that a lot of people don't know exists. And as I said before "in my experience." Fantastic that your husband knew about porn, great that your friends know about hentai, awesomesauce your community may be more exposed to it... but I am talking about my experience in my area re: people I know. And I am sure the knowledge or exposure to Hentai/Anime Porn/However you want to label it varies from region to region world wide. And obviously if I show someone a dirty drawing they will know it's a dirty drawing, I wasn't disputing that fact... the whole issue is loli being considered child porn, and that when it comes to manga/hentai/doujin it is a large grey area where the law is concerned. Not "is a loli drawing dirty." Regardless, disputing this is avoiding the topic, so let's just stop shall we? On topic: I'm just curious why it is that they are going after the people possessing loli material, rather than the people drawing them? I'm not suggesting they should but to me it seems to further show the huge flaw in the legal system... It's like going after the person possesing a rape film, but not going after the individual(s) committing (or filming) the act. |
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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That's up to the Japanese government. But since they're pretty open minded people who understands that a freaking drawing won't harm another human being. __ Now, come and tell me something like "But it could provoke a real child molestation". Yeah, of course. If you are right, everyone would be wielding knives or guns outside the streets and randomly shooting others, since GTA and or movies with killers mutilating their victims definitely would affect people just as much as drawings could. |
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Human_Instrumentality
Posts: 32 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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I don't believe a drawing can provoke a molestation unless the seed had already been planted/rooted in an individuals subconscious for whatever reason in their life. That being said, making loli illegal won't prevent that... i mean they could see a little girl on tv and it could set them off - but they have to blame someone/something. People seem to feel afraid/weak when they dont have something to shift blame to, rather than just accepting that something happened for reasons that couldn't be prevented/forseeen |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Who said anything about harming another, I find it wrong because it harms the one participating in the action, i.e. your harming yourself. Or to explain it better your objectifying yourself, withdrawing from the people who could help you to continue staring at an image that is incapable of helping you in the real world, it can only help you metaphysically at best (and that is if it is truly art, has a story/meaning. etc.) and is not something that is basically appealing to a very low denominator (no one really talks about high quality "artsy" hentai do they?) So it's wrong because it's an act that prevents you from being the person you should be, or another way prevents you from confronting your own humanity honestly. |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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Yes, yes. People are harming themselves and getting jailed for it, instead of getting help. Alright, that's some great help society provides.
Narrow-minded point of view, that's. One thing is to satisfy your sexual needs and by following your instincts. Another thing is being incapable of seeking help from "the real world". Besides, why would you need help simply because you enjoy drawings. That's just silly. That's like saying homosexuals also need help. Screw that.
I'm who I want to be. However people look at me, that won't change a thing. "Confronting your own humanity honestly", that's up to every person's mindset. Sincerely, my worst enemy is my own brain. I couldn't care less about what challenges society may bring, but if they get in my way I'll be sure to get in theirs. |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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It's forcing them to get help, sometimes having the punishment is to remind you of what you should be, a wake up call.
Here let's confront this shall we, we have some here who at the depiction of a person getting molested by another person, they laugh saying it's just good fun. Seriously, that's a problem as we have to ask why is it funny to laugh at someone getting assaulted? Maybe it was meant to confront ourselves on how horrible we are to each other instead of a laugh?
Thanks for the straw-man, as that's not what I said, seeking help in others is not limited to heterosexual transaction/exchange/couple now is it when read at face value? You read that, all on your own. The problem is that a rational adult can accept or refuse another help/advances, so thus why we find it wrong against children (as they are considered irrational in a moral argument, so any agreement with them is null because they can't make that agreement.) Tell me what consent can a drawing give? As the connection your drawing with them in a "sexual" way is only you, going into yourself. So actually I can accept a homosexual relationship, it's a relationship that can act as emotional support and can is one where rational agents can consent. A relationship between a person and a picture is negative only because you withdraw from everything, including yourself, to something where you take consent from something that cannot give it. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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As presented, I find your stance somewhat unjustified, LordRedhand.
I request that you provide a list of premisses from which it would follow that the viewing of the fictionalised material in question is, by the act of viewing it alone, a valid case of self-harm. |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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Aren't you forgetting something important here? We aren't laughing at someone getting assaulted, we are "laughing" at a fictional drawn character getting raped. And about the rest you wrote - Okay. That's your opinion. But is this limited to hentai only? I hardly find any motivation at all to say anything else. But you're blaming hentai for keeping humans from getting outside help. Yes, that might be the case. But, is that the only thing which could prevent you from doing such thing? No, and that's where you're horribly mistaken. Games, "real" porn, movies and even another human being could cause the same. Basically, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that humans can't live without outside help. But that's entirely wrong, according to my point of view. As I've already stated in the community section, I'm my own creator; I change my life as I see fit; I don't depend on others. |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Simple the act of objectifying yourself and you own life. I'll send you the essay I've read. It just has to be harmful, or in some way be one-sided. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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THen they are either lying (don't want to admit they know about such things) or they are also very naive. I have seen home made comics utilizing popular western cartoon characters such as Peanuts or Disney in sexual poses. When David Westerfield was on trial in 2002 for killing a small child (7 maybe?) there was a huge fuss for a couple weeks because his computer had been confiscated & it was revealed he had cartoon porn on it which was first identified as anime which sent many co-workers to my cubicle because it's well known in my office I like anime. However the next week it came out the porn images were not anime, but fanart Western Cartoon porn of characters like The Jetsons.
I'd gamble a large number of the Tea Party attendees this year had no idea there was another meaning to "tea bagging"
My argument is you seem to feel that people in your area not knowing about the term used to describe porn in another country means something when it really doesn't. Sadly it appears in your country they are more serious about the subject & have made possessing anime or manga of what appears to be children in sexual connotations something to go to jail over. Obviously there are people in power there who have heard of hentai.
Why didn't we get Roman Polanski when he had a warrant out for years? Because he stayed out of the US & places what would hand him over to us. Most countries have a thing about the person being tried being present for the trial. Not to mention the international issues raised going after the citizens of another country for somehting that country is ok with. What sort of fuss do YOU think would be raised if Canada tried to convict Akira Toriyama for child porn for Goku's little pat-pat test? Rumiko Takahashi for Happosai chasing after female Ranma?
Meaning your opinion.
Wow. I'm objectifying myself because I have my work cubicle plastered with anime pix (That one of Ban & Ginji that ran as a centerfold in Newtype USA gets a fair amount of comment) so I can take a minute here & there to admire the nicely drawn males before diving back into the drudgery of my work? I have hundreds of yaoi titles. Some are fluff, but others are quite intense. Let Dai is incredible, like slitting open one's wrist, yet exquisite. I believe it was Melted Love--my daughter hated it & I found the art substandard, but the story captured better than any other title I've read the fear inherent in many real world adult relationships that one can wake up to find that lover gone.
You really can't say that. Some people-yes. Others, no. Moderation in all things. A person who uses porn all the time for self pleasure may find real people fail to entice them eventually, but any number of people are able to use porn in moderation as a sex aide & are decent human beings. Thus the type of person most people fear will be fueled by hentai/porn into raping innocents is already abnormal. Those people need to be identified & helped before they commit crimes. There's really no need to ban porn If an author chooses to use child abuse as a plot device, it is that author's choice, is it not? I recall one yaoi title where the teen boy was a prostitute after being molested by his father (step?), but he managed to find love with a boy who loved him & it was a wonderful story of redemptive love. |
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Human_Instrumentality
Posts: 32 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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You claim I am out of touch, then tell me that because people lived through the '60's its obvious they know all about this stuff, and now you are judging people that I know. You are a little too High & Almighty for me. Enjoy the rest of the thread. |
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Annf
Posts: 578 |
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I did a search on LordRedHand posts just to make sure it wasn't a joke/troll account, but it seems not.
LR, right now, you're not making any sense. What does "objectifying yourself and your life" even mean? Drawings giving consent? What the hell? The "consent" is given by the creator(s) and the audience; those are all the living beings involved. What are you even talking about at a fundamental level? The act of masturbation? The act of finding fictional characters attractive? The act of finding sex scenes entertaining? The act of enjoying any criminal act in fantasy? (GTA, etc.) You need to back up and figure out if you have an actual point or not. Something specific to actually say. Right now you're tossing around buzzwords like "objectification" and "getting help" without actually expressing anything. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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Human_Instrumentality, I think you upset CS because you implied that older anime fans don't know about hentai. They are actually a lot of older anime fans that know about it because when anime first came over a great deal of it was hentai. Where do you think this whole idea about anime being nothing but tentacle rape porn came from, hmm? As for "older people not knowing about hentai" , these same people probably don't know about anime, either. Actually, a large percentage of people of all ages don't know what hentai is because they don't know what anime is!
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Human_Instrumentality
Posts: 32 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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Like i've said numerous times... In my experience the majority of the older crowd doesnt know about it. I'm not arguing this point anymore... the horse is dead, there is no use in beating it. But everyone can feel free to continue bringing this up. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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My issue is the insistance that someone not knowing a term from another language means something. My parents are children of WWII who may have a lot of misconceptions about Japanese, but some of it is correct in its way (They do things backwards. Well, yeah, they DO read & write the opposite direction from us, right?) A lot of people here seem to have a personal crusade against hentai because the circles they move in are apparently made up of folk with the perception ALL anime & manga is smut. They regulary whine & moan over on the threads about licensing yaoi about how its ruining the image of anime.
And you'd be surprised what people do to seem proper. I know my daughter hates when I talk about some guy being sexy because she doesn't want to think of me & sex (Parents can't have sex). My mother in law was severly worried about seeming proper, yet asked me what a certain sexual term she heard on Young & Restless meant. Depending on the age dif between you & the people you are speaking of, they just may not feel it's proper to discuss sex. Or that it's improper to discuss sex with co-workers, yet at home any one of your co-workers might be into god knows what. The real perverts like Westerfield keep that sort of stuff hidden from neighbors. I've had clients move because neighbors discovered they were registered sex offenders. It's not the sort of thing one brags about unless there are aother issues going. Look at Bob Crane (Hogan's Heroes). Seemed like a really nice, easy-going guy, but after he was brutally murdered it came out he was pretty deep into porn & that might have gotten him killed. I remember reading a book about old Hollywood actors & seeing some of Bogart's home-made porn collection. Comments Carole Lombard made about Clark Gable's body parts to close friends. However that really has nothing to do with Handley since by all accounts the very small amount of confiscared books were allegedly not indicative of his collection. I believe this started with assumptions that he had to be a perv for wanting that stuff, but it'd be like a collector of art having hundreds of pieces getting busted for having 7 pieces some deem to be child porn because it's work by a certain artist. Handley apparently had a large collection & the books in question were more sampling something he'd read about & not a major interest of his thus the assumption of his being a perv would be very wrong. It's more like hearing of Mapplethorpe or Michael Dickenson & checking out a few pieces of their work vs actually being a fan. Because remember-this is manga. On one level, it's disposible media like the old penny dreadfuls or the serials like Buck Rogers they used to make to fill out the matinee, but it is also art so while some may see it as trash to read & discard, others view it as something to admire. As I said, I have no control over a 200 page manga if the artist feels s/he absolutely has to draw page or 2 flashback depicting the character losing his virginity when he was 13. I'd obviously prefer it not happen since I should have to worry I'll be busted over 1 page? We do not even know how many distressing pictures were involved in these books. Perhaps it was just a couple pages in each one. Trust me. I did a page count & it's not unusual for yaoi to have NO naughty parts or if they are shown, on less than 10% of the pages. I believe one book I looked thru had full frontal on 6 pages out of 200. We don't know the books so we don't know the real issues in question. Were they flat out hentai, or were the children being abused a plot point making some significant social comment? |
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