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Zac wrote:

Enjoy whatever you want to enjoy.

I was wondering when Zac's complimentary "My staff posted an article, so it's time to ensure all the boys and girls are behaving, and if they're not, make some snarky comment to show them how foolish they are." service would be delivered. It comes to no surprise to find it's another one of my ambiguous statements causing the service to be enacted.

Damn, I just love this site!
Smile

But now, it's time to clarify the statement a bit, given I can see how it could be inaccurately applied to all facets of anime fandom in which an opposing opinion is delivered.

Here's the original quote I commented on:

Quote:

I think all this fanservice ecchiness gives anime and anime fans a bad name. Non-fans think that it's all about ogling half-naked little girls.

Note the bold text, as it was this which I made my reply toward. I chopped the original as I assumed readers would remember the original quote.

Before I begin, I should also note my non-fan audience isn't very broad. Never once have I encountered anyone who took my collection as a reason to "ogle little girls". In fact, most usually quip "Ah, how cute!".

However, I've seen many, many fans instantly apply a sexual component to all anime characters which appears very young. It sure doesn't help to read professional opinions which do the same thing.

I challenge any reader to explain why it's okay to call a little girl, in the real world, cute and it's acceptable, but when a fan professes an enjoyment at cute little anime girls, they're labeled as sexual deviants hell bent on screwing every child they run across.

While I am only using "lolicon" as an example, it goes a bit further than this when such adjectives aren't the only remarks used by those who state their opinion.

Let's review an example:

Zac wrote:

I said I found it creepy, that's it.

No, that's "not it", actually. For behind the scenes is the assumption on why you find it creepy, and without honest explanation to your readers, they're wondering what the hell you mean by "creepy".

I don't find these "delicate sensibilities" as being the reason for the "attack" back, but more to understand why you feel the way you do. I'm sure some probably will get all bent out of shape, but there are others out there who'd like to understand your position and can do so without berating you in return.

I couldn't care less about your "creepy" remark, assumptions for its use cast aside. If I really cared, I'd at least offer you the chance to explain it.

But there's a big, big difference between:
"It's creepy people like gore anime." vs. "People who watch gore anime are creepy, especially with all the murders around us."

The first example offers readers a variety of assumptions, and many will simply ignore the statement. But the latter is quite different as it now implies a connection between deviant social behavior in the real world to that of a cartoon. In addition, it now relates the viewer to the real world in a manner which caused the statement.

I don't know about others, but I tend to get a bit defensive when idiots like this include me in their asinine opinion. For it's also these people who'd waste no time throwing me in jail because they find my anime collection "obscene", "offensive", or "child abuse". Anime fan or not.

Even in real world examples of this cross connection, the non-fans have a far less account for such comments than fans of anime do. If anything, an anime fan should expect their reasons for liking any anime accepted without having to worry about being branded with a real world label.

When I see anime fans fully accept Zac's comment in bold above, I'll change my position.

Until then, my original remark that fans give anime a bad name still stands based on my experience.

In returning to the original quote I remarked, let's see how this rewrite comes across:

Quote:

I think all this fanservice ecchiness gives anime and anime fans a bad name. Non-fans think that it's all about ogling half-naked ~~little girls~~ cartoon characters.

Amazing how a little edit changes ones perception. More people will now defend the right to view cartoon characters against those who can't separate out reality vs. cartoon art.

If that's "attacking", then so be it. But these people who think this way are completely ignorant to me.

When a cartoon character runs to a police station to file child abuse charges or appears on Oprah to discuss their hell at being ogled, then we can have a different discussion.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not calling out the poster of the "ogling" comment as they simply stated their experience. Hopefully, no one makes this mistake as I used the text only for its example.
Smile

jenthehen wrote:

animefan1238 wrote:

if i had money to get figuerines then i would have a good number of them, but the question would be where would i put all of them in my small room. i love the embarrasment of those two at the end i laughed. i thought i was out but i got pulled right in.

Trust me ... you find room @___@

Oh lord is that statement true. Tops of bookshelves, top of dressers, next to the tv.....you find room. And as a male and a figure collector I enjoy my scantily clad women as much as the next but I would like more "normal" figures too. However some series do have those characters where that's the only kind of figure they make.......and the character is just so cool you can't help but get the figure heh. And I know quite a few female figure collectors who have wound up just like Paola and Nina heh.

Since we're all doing it . . .

http://myfigurecollection.net/profile/PrettyCranium

I just won the 12" RAH Edward Elric on Ebay today (though apparently he's only 9 inches tall because he's made to scale -- poor Ed!).

Why do I have a bad feeling I'm not going to hear the end of this in the next anncast ? Sad

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Zac wrote:

Enjoy whatever you want to enjoy.

I was wondering when Zac's complimentary "My staff posted an article, so it's time to ensure all the boys and girls are behaving, and if they're not, make some snarky comment to show them how foolish they are." service would be delivered. It comes to no surprise to find it's another one of my ambiguous statements causing the service to be enacted.

You know, it's hard to read this paragraph and not see this as you gloating over successfully baiting Zac into posting in response.

For example, the if statement is: IF posters are not behaving, THEN make a snarky comment. The implied corollary is that if they are behaving, there is no need for a comment.

Then you admit your statement is ambiguous. If you know it's ambiguous, why are you complaining about people misinterpreting it? Maybe you should just make it not ambiguous.

Pretty funny this week.
Maybe it's one of those things you're either into or your not.
But the last panel with their expressions was priceless anyways.
That's what figures do, they make you want to buy them.
Seems Nina is no different.

Zac wrote:

Enjoy whatever you want to enjoy

I agree. Although, you said I'm arguing against a strawman version of your argument, yet you prefaced your first response with:

Quote:

If you're an anime fan who is really creepy and unpleasant and kind of gross and bizarrely proud about it

Quote:

me saying I think loli is "creepy" isn't just an expression of personal taste, suddenly it's me marginalizing an entire section of the fanbase

You saying loli is creepy is your choice. I think guro is disgusting and indulgence in gore films (Saw, etc) is weird as well. However, I'd never conclude from that, that the people who watch them are "creepy and unpleasant". I know that was just an example you used of someone who'd be very defensive about whatever ''weird" hobby they have, but you can see how it could be construed as a blanket statement.

Quote:

However, just as you have the right to talk at length about how you love watching cartoon girls being raped and graphically dismembered

You're also extrapolating that by my defending people, that I enjoy watching...your eloquent description right there lol.

Of course, the context here is that this strip talks about figure collecting, and the original statement was about "ecchiness" of anime or whatever. Neither of which I think is odd, but that of course, is my opinion Smile

When did it ever become about sexual fetishes? When you targeted the fallacy in PJ's argument and expanded upon it. *shrug* Again this is getting way off topic, but I respect your opinion, hopefully you can see where I'm coming from; I'm not a crazy defensive fan of something "weird" that I'm religious about, or whatever your description was.

ON TOPIC

I'm not really into figures at all...the only ones I have are a Yuna/Rikku/Paine, and that was because my g/f's sister didn't want them anymore, lol. My collection hobby though, has got to be CDs. I collect anime/JPop CDs like crazy. I have like 30 Comiket release CDs (mostly Touhou), original print Japanese OSTs for really old shows (Bubblegum Crisis, Tenchi in Tokyo, Sailor Moon R) and OSTs for like...all the seasonal shows that I've fully seen since '05 (including every OST and best collection released for Honey & Clover <3) Everytime I walk into our local import store (in Chinatown...before you say it, they're not bootlegs, I inspect them thoroughly haha) I have to resist the urge to buy stuff Anime hyper

Maryohki wrote:

And I guarantee Nina and Paola wouldn't be whining if it were a gorgeous, scantily clad male character. ^.~

Do these really exist, though? If they do, it's definitely not in the same numbers as those of female characters. I have to admit-- while scantily-clad girls don't do it for me, if there were more male figures available I might be tempted to start collecting. Actually, it occurred to me a while ago that fanservice-y female figures might have a some what of a parallel in the ball-jointed doll scene-- though they're quite a bit more expensive on average, BJDs perfectly capture that bishounen-look that many of us ladies find attractive; you can pretty much deck them out in whatever clothing/hair/accessories you please as long as you can afford to buy it or make it; and they are often larger in scale & poseable to boot. Okay, it's pretty obvious that I'm still lusting after BJDs after briefly entertaining the notion of buying one this summer but in short, it's kind of hard for me to begrudge the "girly"-figure collectors their thing when, had I a few pretty BJDs at my disposal, I'd probably spend way too much time dressing, posing, and generally fussing over them too-- which is probably even weirder than just putting them on a shelf (as I would a non-poseable figure). Laughing

poonk wrote:

Maryohki wrote:

And I guarantee Nina and Paola wouldn't be whining if it were a gorgeous, scantily clad male character. ^.~

Do these really exist, though? If they do, it's definitely not in the same numbers as those of female characters.

This is definitely true. I only have one male figure in my collection (Kaoru Nagisa from Evangelion) Honestly though, male figures wouldn't be as fun to collect. You can't dress a male character up in a variety of adorable/sexy/pretty/elaborate get-ups like you can with a female character. There just seems to be a lot more variety in how you can present a female character in a figure.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Before I begin, I should also note my non-fan audience isn't very broad. Never once have I encountered anyone who took my collection as a reason to "ogle little girls". In fact, most usually quip "Ah, how cute!".

So I take it you show off your collection to mostly those who also share your tastes as well then? Hardly seems a fair and equal survey if that is the case. Wink

Quote:

However, I've seen many, many fans instantly apply a sexual component to all anime characters which appears very young. It sure doesn't help to read professional opinions which do the same thing.

Surely if professionals, someone of learned background in the field, are doing it too, there must be something in it, don't you think? Something you might be overlooking, or ignoring?

Quote:

I challenge any reader to explain why it's okay to call a little girl, in the real world, cute and it's acceptable, but when a fan professes an enjoyment at cute little anime girls, they're labeled as sexual deviants hell bent on screwing every child they run across.

It's not what is said, it's the way one says it, and at what is in vision when it is being said, on both sides of the coin. What is acceptable and not acceptable is a very thin line and easily crossed. Wink

I love the expression of guilt on their faces when leaving that shop with carrierbags. Laughing

Quark wrote:

You can't dress a male character up in a variety of adorable/sexy/pretty/elaborate get-ups like you can with a female character. There just seems to be a lot more variety in how you can present a female character in a figure.

Actually, I have to disagree. Just because they don't tend to sculpt male characters in sexy/elaborate designs doesn't mean they can't. I suppose it's simply that they're obviously trying to appeal to a primarily male otaku crowd, so there you have it. I'm sure if they thought enough fans were interested in "sexy guy" figures they would churn those out too. But trust me, male characters can wear some pretty detailed outfits (for example, though it's not my personal taste, see any random Visual-Kei group). And, as I alluded to in my previous post, if you're into the BJD scene there's no shortage of ways to customize your male doll (or female doll for that matter, but I'm primarily interested in the males ones for the purpose of this thread).

poonk wrote:

Quark wrote:

You can't dress a male character up in a variety of adorable/sexy/pretty/elaborate get-ups like you can with a female character. There just seems to be a lot more variety in how you can present a female character in a figure.

Actually, I have to disagree. Just because they don't tend to sculpt male characters in sexy/elaborate designs doesn't mean they can't. I suppose it's simply that they're obviously trying to appeal to a primarily male otaku crowd, so there you have it. I'm sure if they thought enough fans were interested in "sexy guy" figures they would churn those out too. But trust me, male characters can wear some pretty detailed outfits (for example, though it's not my personal taste, see any random Visual-Kei group). And, as I alluded to in my previous post, if you're into the BJD scene there's no shortage of ways to customize your male doll (or female doll for that matter, but I'm primarily interested in the males ones for the purpose of this thread).

Based on the many female deviants I've seen perusing Artist Alleys for crazy man-porn, I think these figure makers are missing out on some real money to be made. :p

poonk wrote:

Quark wrote:

You can't dress a male character up in a variety of adorable/sexy/pretty/elaborate get-ups like you can with a female character. There just seems to be a lot more variety in how you can present a female character in a figure.

Actually, I have to disagree. Just because they don't tend to sculpt male characters in sexy/elaborate designs doesn't mean they can't. I suppose it's simply that they're obviously trying to appeal to a primarily male otaku crowd, so there you have it. I'm sure if they thought enough fans were interested in "sexy guy" figures they would churn those out too. But trust me, male characters can wear some pretty detailed outfits (for example, though it's not my personal taste, see any random Visual-Kei group).

Ah, I forgot about the whole Visual Kei thing. I used to be big into Dir en Grey, and those boys wore some pretty amazing outfits. It is a little surprising that there aren't more male figures in a sense, because yaoi seems to be quite popular amoung female fans, so it's strange that they wouldn't want figures of the boys they drool over. Anyway, I do stand corrected, and upon further thought, some of the costumes given to the guys in Fushigi Yuugi were pretty fancy, and would probably make for good figures.
BTW the cute girl figures aren't being bought up only by male otaku. Myself included, there are about two or three other straight girls in this forum alone who collect girly figures.

Jadress wrote:

Based on the many female deviants I've seen perusing Artist Alleys for crazy man-porn, I think these figure makers are missing out on some real money to be made. :p

Quark wrote:

It is a little surprising that there aren't more male figures in a sense, because yaoi seems to be quite popular amoung female fans, so it's strange that they wouldn't want figures of the boys they drool over.

Exactly.* However, while I bet someone could make a pretty nice profit making character figures for some of the more popular and/or long-running BL series, for example, I can also see how it would be much more profitable instead to concentrate on an infinite variety of female figures from a more mainstream show, since the figure-collecting crowd seems to skew male. I sort of wonder how "chicken-and-egg" this situation is, i.e., Would this demographic necessarily change if they made more male figures to appeal to female fans? Or do the guys just tend to gravitate towards figure-collecting more and so, accordingly, there's more "sexy-girl" figures? I don't profess to know the answer, I just wonder sometimes.

*I suppose my interested in (the lack of) male figures makes me one of those "female-deviants" Jadress mentions, though I could never in a million years ask a total stranger in the Artists' Alley to draw porn for me. No way, no how-- it's way too weird a situation, and I'm much too shy.

Quark wrote:

BTW the cute girl figures aren't being bought up only by male otaku. Myself included, there are about two or three other straight girls in this forum alone who collect girly figures.

Hence my intentional use of the phrase "primarily-male," etc. I try to make a point to not speak in terms of absolutes in these regards because I know such assumptions will invariably come back and bite me on the arse later. But anyway, thanks for clueing me in that you are actually female (and hetero). I actually did presume from your statement that the prospect of male characters in a variety of costumes didn't appeal to you because you were a straight guy. So as a female figure-collector, would you (or any other ladies who would care to chime in) also collect sexy-guy figures-- not necessarily BL-themed ones-- if they made them for the series you like? I suppose it also partly depends on the series & the audience to which it caters. In my opinion, some male protagonists just honestly do not lend themselves to the concept of "sexy" anything (for example, Evangelion's Shinji).

poonk wrote:

*I suppose my interested in (the lack of) male figures makes me one of those "female-deviants" Jadress mentions, though I could never in a million years ask a total stranger in the Artists' Alley to draw porn for me. No way, no how-- it's way too weird a situation, and I'm much too shy.

It's all good. Back in my super Fushigi Yuugi obsession heyday, I would have sawed off my right leg for a Tamahome figure or statue. I'd throw in a few toes from the left foot if he was shirtless/revealing his man chest. I also REALLY wanted an FY fighting game. Stupid interests in products that seemingly only cater to male demographics!!

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Anime News Nina! - 2009-11-11