Forum - View topicStandards for thread-locking
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4575 |
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Something I've noticed occurring several times in the past here on the forums is a thread being locked by a moderator because of a substandard opening post, despite the fact that some decent discussion had begun to develop later in the thread. This particular instance is what spurred me to make this post, although it's hardly the sole occasion I've seen it happen. Now I completely understand the statement in the forum rules about new threads containing some degree of substance or depth, and I honestly agree with it; it's a big part of what keeps the discussion around here so fulfilling. However, in a case like this, where a good conversation sprung out of a not-so-good opening post, couldn't it be seen as serving everyone better by allowing the thread to continue down this new road, despite its beginnings? On a number of forums I frequent that are a bit less strict about pure on-topic-ness, I've seen a number of really high-quality threads spring out of rather inauspicious beginnings. Conversation has a way of naturally evolving, and those evolutions can sometimes be far more interesting than the original direction. Do any of the mods/staff have a particular opinion on this?
(Note that I'm not singling out Tony here; I've seen other mods do something similar.) |
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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To prevent the same thing from happening again, or to set it as an example, I'd say. But I do agree with you, maybe threads like those shouldn't be locked. But in the case of the one you mentioned, a warning was already given; it wasn't followed by the author, thus the thread was locked. Besides, if you think the thread is worth keeping around, you could just recreate it, just like I did with one not so long ago. |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4575 |
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You could, but I sort of feel like spamming up the thread listing with repeats of previously-locked threads wouldn't exactly be desirable. And I realize that the warning was given to the OP, but that doesn't really impact the quality discussion that a few other posters were having either way.
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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That's like saying that a completed written test without your name is still alright. I mean, the test is there, all the answers are answered, and correctly at that, but there's no name. Wouldn't that make the person just as stupid for forgetting the name, and as smart for answering everything correctly? Now, think of the writer as the topic author, and think of the teacher as the moderator. As a teacher, would you want the same thing happening again? The teacher could let him off this time, but what reason would he give for the next person to commit the same mistake?
I hope that makes sense. Well, I doubt I could give you an answer satisfying enough, since I'm not a Mod. |
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TheTheory
 Posts: 1029 Location: Central PA |
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The problem with that analogy is that a test without a name only affects the student who forgot the name, whereas locking a thread like the one linked above affects the whole ANN forum community--especially the people who are enjoying discussing the topic. There have been quite a few threads where the initial prompt question is interesting to me, and has even started really good discussion, but because of the sketchy first post I refrain from posting in the thread because I know it is simply going to get locked soon. As a user who wants to write about anime and interact with like fans, I find this zero-tolerance policy frustrating. At the same time I understand where the moderators (all of whom I like and respect) are coming from in regards to the rules. I think the heart of the rule is good--they don't want people requesting that people put in effort to give a good thread response without first providing their own effort. Especially in the cases of those silly people who think that writing about anime for a paper in their college classes is a good idea and want people's opinions for their paper. A thread like that simply mines the ANN community without really returning anything. At least if the thread starter answers his own query in a thoughtful way that person is returning as much to the community as he or she is requesting. Where the line blurs and it might be a good idea to allow exceptions is when the ANN community is responding and interacting with itself instead of people posting just to satisfy the prompt. In the thread linked above there are a lot of ANN posters commenting on what other ANN members have said. Despite the bland first post, the thread has been turned into a good discussion that the community benefits from. (While typing this and revisiting that thread, I see that it has been unlocked again. Yay!) |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11295 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Well the thread's been re-opened now. I locked it primarily because the goofball of an author gave a pretty broad, almost discriminatingly idiotic opinion of Blade Runner. I can understand if people don't like something for whatever personal preferences. But if that kind of uneducated or lazily pronounced "opinion" is all he's got, that's automatically indicative of something I call "inflammation intention," also known as "trolling."
Anytime someone says "I just didn't like [blah, blah, blah]" without so much as an actual sentence including one or more or a combination of descriptive/analyzation terms, then says "end of story" you can be sure I'll stop said fire from spreading. But now we have this predicament of people turning crap openers into sound discussion, don't we? What do you suggest we do, leave every and all crap openers alone so someone else can "evolutionize" it, or should I keep stompin' mud holes? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I hear you. I think that unless you are feeling particularly charitable (and we all know how much flak you've gotten in the past for doing just that), the best course of action is to judge the thread by how it appears when you come across it. Most threads with bad opening posts don't do so well, so on the basis of probability shutting it down with the big old padlock is a good idea. But on the rare occasions in which a bad opening post has spawned a half-way decent thread, then maybe a bit of restraint wouldn't go amiss. What I'm saying is, if you arrive really quickly to a thread in which the opening post was crap, and so nothing good has happened yet, then by all means lock it. If however you arrive to find intelligent and meaningful discussion has already started despite a crap opening post, then you could consider keeping it open (and keeping an eye on it to make sure it stays intelligent and on-topic). I'm not attempting to dictate what you should and should not do. I'm simply emphasising with your situation and trying to tell you about an idea I had. What you do with it is of course up to you. If you want to throw it in the bin that's fine, though I myself love to make paper aeroplanes with scrap paper, ha hah. Last edited by dtm42 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Keep stompin' mud holes would by my vote. I posted in the thread with the hope the OP would return and correct their original. Well, they did return, but didn't correct. The lock was implemented, and should have stayed this way. I can also see how future issues will arise when someone's post gets locked but then turns around and says "this one" didn't simply because it has tons of replies in it. Users always have the option to rekindle it, but if many already posted, it would seem moot to do so in the new thread. I often read locked threads, so it's not as though the users would need to re-type their words. But if this is a concern, I'll be sure to do my part and simply ignore threads like the one exampled above until such time it's corrected. I did feel it could spark a decent conversation, but rules are rules. Speaking of which, there's a pesky rule that bugs the hell out of me regarding "backseat moderating". Is telling someone to read the rules considered doing this? Or how about telling them to fix their post? While I don't believe anyone would get banned for doing so, it comes off as rather hypocritical for a user to state such to these (often new) users, especially in relation to the rules. Alas, the pitfalls of running a forum continue. But I will state for the record, I'm still extremely pleased at the way ANN runs theirs. Other sites have billions of "Who'd win in a fight: Naruto or Nanoha?"-type threads, which is why I don't visit them. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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I say stomp them down. The fact is they break the rules and there's no way to predict which ones will or will not wind up being saved by other members. I say just stick to the basics. What you might do, if the idea behind the thread is decent enough, is put a note in your locking post to the effect of "anyone else wanna try?" That way it shows that the mods feel there is merit behind the idea but the presentation was just bad. After that it's up to another poster to, or the same, to try again. I think this is the best idea because if you start letting some crap openers go but not others then people will bitch more and more about unfairness. This way no one gets any special favors but if an idea has any merit hen that poster, or someone else, can try again. I've seen such bits in moderation posts before and I've seen people try again. |
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jgreen
 Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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I'm of the same mind as dtm42: judge it by the whole thread that's already there when you come across it. If you come across a bad opening post, by all means stomp it, but if a good thread has sprung up through the stinky manure of a bad opener, I don't see the benefit in locking the thread and stifling the conversation.
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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As a reader, I'm of the same mind as the last couple people. If you come across a thread that's garbage, stomp it.
But if a good thread has sprung from a garbage op, then the thread itself isn't garbage. Send a warning to the op and let the thread continue. As an admin, I'm tempted to say stomp it regardless, to teach the op a lesson. But that's probably letting the tail (the desire to have our rules obeyed) wag the dog (the desire to have a quality forum). We've long said that technicalities don't rule our moderation, we'll lock bad thread even if they don't break the rules, so we should consider allowing good threads, even if they break the rules. -t |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Eesh, I never thought I'd be saying this, but: some roses grow quite well in manure.
On occasion, you'll see a thread started by a new poster, or a habitual I-want-to-rack-up-my-post-count offender, or just someone with no skill at all. They'll make all the basic mistakes, from bad grammar to poorly elucidated ideas -- but somehow, they will have hit upon a nugget of good material. And then the magic happens. Some of the other users -- people with better command of English, better skills at formulating their ideas, and better all-around sense -- will pick up the good idea languishing in a heap of blather, and turn it into a fine thread. This happens, too, when an old (but good) thread is revived by a badly-crafted and instantly forgettable necropost by someone especially clueless. A lot of the users who weren't around in the heyday of the revived good thread will pick up on the idea (which is new to them) and kick the ball around the courtyard another time -- with often excellent results. So... what am I saying here? Starting a thread with a crap post is BAD. Except when it's not. Necroposting is BAD. Except when it's not. This is why there are moderators. If it was all easily reducible to a set of rules, you'd not need us -- it could be almost automatic. But real debate and discussion doesn't work like that. Moderators exist to fill the need: to be lenient when the situation calls for lenience, and to be GRRRARGLBLARGL when the situation calls for that. - abunai |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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If you'd give me the pleasure of rewriting this: "Starting a thread with a partly crap post is BAD. Except when it's partly not. Necroposting is partly BAD. Except when it's partly not." 
Either way, it was wise to reopen the thread, but, I have the feeling it's going to wither away really soon. While, in reality, I hope it won't happen. But, after all, I'd say that was a bad example, and that event somehow could affect the moderators' reliability if done often. |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4575 |
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Heh, I'm glad to see Tony and some of the higher-ups responding to this, and I'm also glad that the thread in question was re-opened, even if it doesn't wind up going anywhere else. I'm inclined to agree with dtm and abunai, as well as tempest's point about intent: the real reason that rule exists is to encourage quality discussion on the forums, so if its to-the-letter enforcement gets in the way of some ongoing quality discussions, then it's not really serving its true purpose. I definitely agree that, if a mod stumbles across a very poor opening post that no one's really noticed yet or hasn't spawned any good replies, the best thing to do would be to nip it in the bud and lock it; this thread that Tony handled is a great example. However, like in the case of the thread that prompted my original post, if there is a rose already growing from that manure, I think it's best to warn the original poster individually and allow the ensuing discussion to continue. It's true that, as an alternative, you could lock the thread and encourage the participants to start a new one, but then you have both a closed thread and an open thread about the same exact topic clogging up the forum index page, which at least in my mind just makes the place look cluttered.
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Maybe this shouldn't go under this topic but I'd like to ask about necro-posting (it's been bothering me for a while). Now that we have an official series thread index what should we do if we want to post about a series we just watched, but that may be a little older? Like in-depth discussion (for example the new monstrous EVA thread that was made). Without an "angle" there's really no way to start a new topic on a show. Take Toradora! for instance, which aired a good while ago but which is probably still ripe for discussion. Doesn't it make sense to dig up the, say, 6-months-old thread than to start an entirely new one? It's just kind of a rock and a hard place because threads get locked when people try to start them about older series and they're directed to "been-there-done-that" threads...but we're not supposed to necro-post. Dilemma!
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