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NEWS: 11 Arrested in Japan for Uploading via Share Program


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tripdragon



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 20
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:07 am Reply with quote
People trying to entertain people.
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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 373
Location: QBN, NSW, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:23 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
So despite pirating, they've just removed 10 paying consumers of their goods. Customers who, for example, might not have afforded the lucky star DVDs but did buy a couple of figures instead. The same customers who would've bought nothing at all had they not download lucky star to begin with.
While I agree with you on the potential "Odex Effect" this law could have on the Japanese industry, I think in Japan the whole anti uploading/downloading law is kinda justified (as long as it goes through court and isn't some "three strikes" crap that western studios are gunning for). Japanese consumers can either turn on their free to air TV, get cable/satellite TV or rent DVDs or Blu-rays to get their legal anime fix. All are cheap options. I'm rather perplexed as to why a Japanese anime fan would feel the need to download an anime as there are much easier, higher quality LEGAL options they could choose from.
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DranzerX13



Joined: 04 Jun 2006
Posts: 81
Location: USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:25 am Reply with quote
It would be really interesting if companies like TV Tokyo, Fuji TV, or TV Asahi could create a Live TV streaming website for people outside Japan, to show their content either raw or english subbed. Something like this would be awesome. I would love to actually watch TV Tokyo on air legally outside Japan. If something like this were to happen, it would cost of course but i'd be okay with that. Not just that, then I guess some people would stop downloading raws and distributing them.

I'm one to talk though, because I do some of that stuff too.

I do agree that piracy has been going a little too far lately, especially with content that even people in their country can buy easily. I admit that i've done my fair share of downloading anime illegally via the internet, but most of the time I actually buy my stuff. I try to support these companies as much as I can.

I own lots of anime merchandise; DVDs, Video Games, Music, etc.
I'm going to continue buying this stuff for as long as I can.

To everyone that has illegally downloaded their anime (yes even me) to take this in to consideration; All these anime companies work their butts off to both have a roof over their heads, have food on the table, and to give us anime fans things we enjoy. If there is something you've seen and like, we need to show our support to these companies and purchase their stuff. I hate that piracy has been a little over the line lately. you see all this new stuff available for download that just got released. For people that have downloaded these things illegally, it makes it unfair to the people who have paid for it.

Well in my opinion, I find it understandable to download things not on the market anymore. If people are downloading stuff you can't really buy anymore, or not on the market, then the companies wouldn't be making money off those products either way.
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Katane



Joined: 13 Nov 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:04 am Reply with quote
bayoab wrote:
Katane wrote:
Now how much in fines will they have to pay in fines is what I wanna know and how much jail time are they looking at. I guess we'll see sometime down in the future.
The previous share arrests resulted in 3 year suspended sentences for 18 month jail terms and no fine. (i.e. 3 years of probation)


Interesting to know consider that in cases their's usually a fine involved of some kind. We'll see how things tun out especially now that their's an 11'th arrest involved.

MysteryGreenTea wrote:
Wow, look at that list. Goes to show you you can't hide from the law.


True, and the way things sound now it might get even bigger.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:26 am Reply with quote
Lothar wrote:
I would be angry at all of the "glad the bastards got caught, rot in jail" posts. However, it seems that no matter how serious or trivial an offense is - any offense - that is discussed in a thread, there is always at least one person who cheers for the police/prosecution. It could have been a woman who was beaten by the Taliban government for wearing a hijab instead of a burka c. 1999, and there would always be at least one a**hole posting, "She should have known what was going to happen; can't feel sorry for her." Perhaps he (they're almost always men) was trolling. Maybe he's a misanthrope. It might be that he was genuinely that dumb/unreasonable when it comes to the application of state power. But it always happens.

And that is why I hate the Internet.


There's a reason for most laws. If the law is bad, work to change it. No, this may not apply to all places in the world, but in Japan, as in the US, the voters have a certain amount of say.
That said, Japan has a slightly different outlook than the US. You can't really say shame has totally lost value in Japan & that people will just shrug off the shame of going to jail if they perceive a real chance of it happening.
Dude, comparing a woman being beaten is pretty insensative on your part. How about comparing it to cleaning up after one's dog? It's the nice thing to do & I don't have to clean my neighbor's dog's droppings out of my front yard.
How about--
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124894486860193163.html
which discusses the plight of Rie Otani, 22 yr old animator who toils away for 11-12 hrs per day to knock out sketches on her computer yet still fails to make a living wage (sometimes less than 100,000 yen) so she gets to live with her folks & commute for 4 hours per day. I'm thinking this leaves her a whole 8 hrs between shifts to unwind, sleep & head back out.

Evil capitalist.
She should be willing to do it all for free so you can enjoy all the anime you want

Clue, dude.
You do not need anime to live. If you cannot afford it, tuff luck.
Do you think all those masses in the past you're dreaming about prior to the last 1000 yrs had all that much exposure to art/entertainment/etc?
Seems to me since there was no way to record the performances, people were pretty much stuck with paying for their art, making it themselves, or "stealing" it (sneaking in/being close enough to hear a concert without paying, etc.)

Quote:
Furthermore, people like to assume that people who download illegally buy nothing and people who don't buy everything, when the truth is actually closer to the opposite.


What does a poll about downloading in Brtitain have to do with anime downloaders in Japan? Countries are different. This is more like someone in the US uploading Supernatural eps for other Americans to download. Anime is available in Japan. They can see it on tv. Some of it is pay per view so yeah, the poor babies have to actually pay to see it just like we do here for our pay-per-view. There IS a reason for that whole set up, though isn't there?

So why the pity for these guys? It's like ANY law. These guys knew it was illegal to do this so they had to know the consequences for getting caught just like any speeder or car pool lane violator.
If you do the crime, you have to be prepared to do the time. I SOOO hate that "Why aren't cops out catching REAL criminals?!"
Guess what? At least where I live they don't hear law violations in civil court. Your dog off its leash is a criminal offense heard in criminal court. I can't tell you how many people I've sent to the criminal court who are upset they have to go to criminal court because they aren't criminals even though they violated a law & want to go to civil court.
These guys may not be violent criminals, but they broke the law. Japan should just ignore them?
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 831
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:41 am Reply with quote
edzieba wrote:
Creating art, music, books, etc has occured for thousands of years. Only in the last hundred has there been an organised cartel to regulate (and worryingly, legislate) distribution.

That's because the modern music and movie industry have a completely different business model and quick and easy mass replication of works was not possible until about 30 years ago.
edzieba wrote:
Quote:
Imagine if all the animators and writers and directors were just doing this for free as a hobby in between salaryman jobs.
We'd get more beautiful works like Voices of a Distant Star? More work created out of love of creation rather than the intent and expectation to reap a profit? A few excellent shows rather than scads of mediocre ones is definitely a preferable state of affairs.

We get what, one or two of those a year? And most of them are nowhere as spectacular as you make them out to be.

configspace wrote:
Furthermore, people like to assume that people who download illegally buy nothing and people who don't buy everything, when the truth is actually closer to the opposite.

We are talking about very expensive things here ($50 DVDs, figures,etc). This is not the same as a $2 music/tv download.

Quote:

So despite pirating, they've just removed 10 paying consumers of their goods. Customers who, for example, might not have afforded the lucky star DVDs but did buy a couple of figures instead. The same customers who would've bought nothing at all had they not download lucky star to begin with.

You are saying the equivalent of "These people buy music and the only way they would know to buy the CD is if they walked up to a band and asked for a private concert while ignoring all the TVs playing the music videos, the songs playing on the radio, and being constantly bombarded with goods in every store." (i.e. This is nonsense.)

Quote:
If they really throw down the hatchet come Jan 1, I can see Japan becoming another Odexed place.

"The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." This isn't going to be a repeat of Odex. They don't see themselves as being persecuted by a corrupt, greedy company. Also, this likely isn't random people who just happened to upload a song or two. (See the parenthesis section below.)

Greboruri wrote:
Japanese consumers can either turn on their free to air TV, get cable/satellite TV or rent DVDs or Blu-rays to get their legal anime fix. All are cheap options. I'm rather perplexed as to why a Japanese anime fan would feel the need to download an anime as there are much easier, higher quality LEGAL options they could choose from.
Not all shows air in all areas. Many shows don't air the same day in some areas and like with US fans, they want to see it quickly to discuss it with other fans. In fact, what is likely to come out of this is that some of these people were capturers or initial propagators for share. (The previous Share arrests nabbed people who did captures/initial uploads as their hash tags were found out. They were only charged with one of the many shows they each did. A similar list should appear soon for this one.)
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:13 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

How about--
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124894486860193163.html
which discusses the plight of Rie Otani, 22 yr old animator who toils away for 11-12 hrs per day to knock out sketches on her computer yet still fails to make a living wage (sometimes less than 100,000 yen) so she gets to live with her folks & commute for 4 hours per day. I'm thinking this leaves her a whole 8 hrs between shifts to unwind, sleep & head back out.

Evil capitalist.
She should be willing to do it all for free so you can enjoy all the anime you want

Clue, dude.
You do not need anime to live. If you cannot afford it, tuff luck.
Do you think all those masses in the past you're dreaming about prior to the last 1000 yrs had all that much exposure to art/entertainment/etc?

and you think that somehow animation production makes up the bulk of the expense? The reality is that it's one of their least costly expenditures according to a budget chart a couple years ago, making up only 16% of total cost! You pay more in brokers/ad agencies, paying to get air your show on multiple stations. But the sad part is that the studio budget, though it's one of their lowest costs, is basically the only place where production commitees have control over and can make cuts.

And what happens when people simply stop buying their stuff, as you said "tuff luck"? And by stuff I also mean merchandise, not just DVDs/BDs -- we already see a constant drop in overall sales in Japan despite the massive increase in BD sales, with anime making the majority of BD total sales in Japan i.e. more people are saving up and opting to buy BDs instead but they aren't buying much overall.

It's not like they can afford to even if they wanted to anyways. Just look at the reverse importation issues in the Kurokami thread.

And you mentioned that "anime is not essential" which absolutely true of course. But shouldn't it be the industry (e.g. the boss of the boss of the boss of Ms Otani) to take that to heart?

Quote:

Quote:
Furthermore, people like to assume that people who download illegally buy nothing and people who don't buy everything, when the truth is actually closer to the opposite.


What does a poll about downloading in Brtitain have to do with anime downloaders in Japan? Countries are different. This is more like someone in the US uploading Supernatural eps for other Americans to download. Anime is available in Japan. They can see it on tv. Some of it is pay per view so yeah, the poor babies have to actually pay to see it just like we do here for our pay-per-view. There IS a reason for that whole set up, though isn't there?

That link was not a good one in explaining the study. It wasn't a poll. The study took a sample of some couple thousand people, then asked them to send their receipts in for all their music purchases in a long enough period of time so that the researchers could verify their purchases, then they asked the participants how much they've also downloaded illegally then made that correlation.

Quote:

So why the pity for these guys? It's like ANY law. These guys knew it was illegal to do this so they had to know the consequences for getting caught just like any speeder or car pool lane violator.
If you do the crime, you have to be prepared to do the time. I SOOO hate that "Why aren't cops out catching REAL criminals?!"
Guess what? At least where I live they don't hear law violations in civil court. Your dog off its leash is a criminal offense heard in criminal court. I can't tell you how many people I've sent to the criminal court who are upset they have to go to criminal court because they aren't criminals even though they violated a law & want to go to civil court.
These guys may not be violent criminals, but they broke the law. Japan should just ignore them?

How about this. Instead of getting a speeding ticket and simply paying a fine, how about you get instantly thrown in jail and get a criminal record? Then go through a lot of legal hassle, probation, etc. Basically in Japan, if they were employed before being arrested, they will almost certainly not be afterward.

bayoab wrote:

configspace wrote:
Furthermore, people like to assume that people who download illegally buy nothing and people who don't buy everything, when the truth is actually closer to the opposite.

We are talking about very expensive things here ($50 DVDs, figures,etc). This is not the same as a $2 music/tv download.

Quote:

So despite pirating, they've just removed 10 paying consumers of their goods. Customers who, for example, might not have afforded the lucky star DVDs but did buy a couple of figures instead. The same customers who would've bought nothing at all had they not download lucky star to begin with.

You are saying the equivalent of "These people buy music and the only way they would know to buy the CD is if they walked up to a band and asked for a private concert while ignoring all the TVs playing the music videos, the songs playing on the radio, and being constantly bombarded with goods in every store." (i.e. This is nonsense.)

with the current exchange rate, it's closer to $100 per dvd now. And yes, those DVDs/BDs are damn expensive that's why I mentioned they despite not being able to buy the discs, many would still be able to afford some merchandise: i.e. a $50- $100 figure, a cheap wall scroll, an artbook, a cd single of the op or ed (you know, helping sponsors like had been discussed before) vs $1000+ for a series.

Quote:
Quote:
If they really throw down the hatchet come Jan 1, I can see Japan becoming another Odexed place.

"The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." This isn't going to be a repeat of Odex. They don't see themselves as being persecuted by a corrupt, greedy company. Also, this likely isn't random people who just happened to upload a song or two. (See the parenthesis section below.)

Greboruri wrote:
Japanese consumers can either turn on their free to air TV, get cable/satellite TV or rent DVDs or Blu-rays to get their legal anime fix. All are cheap options. I'm rather perplexed as to why a Japanese anime fan would feel the need to download an anime as there are much easier, higher quality LEGAL options they could choose from.
Not all shows air in all areas. Many shows don't air the same day in some areas and like with US fans, they want to see it quickly to discuss it with other fans. In fact, what is likely to come out of this is that some of these people were capturers or initial propagators for share. (The previous Share arrests nabbed people who did captures/initial uploads as their hash tags were found out. They were only charged with one of the many shows they each did. A similar list should appear soon for this one.)


They may hammer down lots of nails, but that does not mean that they'll get more sales! (ooh, lookie I made a rhymey.. oh stymie! .. ok I'll stop).

Is the act of simply watching these late night programs, even enough?. It seems the industry benefits more (which in turn indirectly, though very little, pays for Ms Otani's job) for people to download a capture/raw then decide to buy a Drama CD, an Exit trance remix CD, a Nendroid, an artbook, whatever misc merchandise the sponsors have invested in to sell, than it is for someone to "legally" watch it and buy nothing.

Ironically, the user generated content with AMVs / MADs contribute more in ad-revenue that official videos as previously mentioned, which actually makes sense to me given that these generate wider interest, and are viewed mulitple times, which would also be negatively affected as a result of this. (I myself have bought music heard from such content btw)

I predict that unless we see the system somehow change, we'll continue to see a drop in R2J sales (for both dvds/bds and merchandise), despite the increase in arrests or whatever drop in share/PD usage, if any.
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Daemonblue



Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 701
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:16 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Lots of stuff


I'm only gonna pull on the part that refers to how much the animator gets paid here....but you can't really blame how much she gets paid on people that download the stuff. In the end, it's the studio deciding to pay them those wages, and not necessarily because they don't plan on making a lot of money with the series due to "illegal downloads." The real problem isn't in illegal downloads but in the market itself. The global economy is in a downturn and yet for the most part companies are barely trying to adapt. The old business models just will not work in this environment and all suing potential customers tends to do is hurt you in multiple ways (any legal fees due to litigation and potential income lost from the person sued). Thankfully it hasn't gotten to RIAA levels yet though, in that they aren't pulling up lists of IPs (which for the most part can easily be forged on the end of the tracker, certain sites would inject tens of thousands of random ips onto their trackers to hide people) and sending lawsuits willy-nilly with the hopes of getting out of court settlements based on quite literally no proof.

What irks me the most about this though is the ACTA that's currently being proposed in secret (yay leaks) and the possibility of it enforcing a global three strikes and DMCA, where they wouldn't need proof to disconnect a family's internet.

Also, in Canada if a show was shown on TV it's legal to download it cause it was available for free, and music is also currently legal to download there due to the industry being paid via CD sells (each CD sold nets them money, even if no music is on it). The point of pointing that out is just that if you ca get it for free via TV you should be able to download it legally, at least in my opinion.

Oh and those suggesting rentals aren't actually helping at all. Rentals actually hurt the entertainment industry (in general) more than piracy since the money from rentals goes to the company and not the publishers.

I'd keep ranting about how little the actual people behind the scenes make...but I think I'll just stop here as just thinking of it makes my blood boil...
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hikaru004



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2306
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:06 am Reply with quote
Daemonblue wrote:


Oh and those suggesting rentals aren't actually helping at all. Rentals actually hurt the entertainment industry (in general) more than piracy since the money from rentals goes to the company and not the publishers.

I'd keep ranting about how little the actual people behind the scenes make...but I think I'll just stop here as just thinking of it makes my blood boil...


Besides you can obtain the video to share from a rental prob as easy as the TV capture. It's just a time delay of months. And in some cases, the corrected video is on the rental (like Bakemonogatari).
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:25 am Reply with quote
Daemonblue wrote:
Also, in Canada if a show was shown on TV it's legal to download it cause it was available for free, and music is also currently legal to download there due to the industry being paid via CD sells (each CD sold nets them money, even if no music is on it). The point of pointing that out is just that if you ca get it for free via TV you should be able to download it legally, at least in my opinion.


Well...sort of but no. You're really kind of misstating things. Basically, you are expressly allowed to make a copy of a copyrighted work for personal use which probably means you can in fact download copyrighted work. It's pretty vague really. It's not spelled out and depends on how the courts interpret the law. There have been a bunch of cases over it and currently it does seem to be that way. You definitely can not give a copy to another person though which is what you're doing when you use a P2P network. You kind of make is sound like it's some happy little situation where it's perfectly legal and everyone gets what they want but it really isn't. The added tax on recording devices really just serves to screw over the people who do also pay. The recording industry isn't happy with it because they think they could be getting more. I don't know if little companies (like anime companies) see any of that money either. As for that whole TV thing. I'm really not sure about that. I've never heard that and it really makes no sense from a legal and practical standpoint.
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plethebest



Joined: 01 Dec 2009
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:00 am Reply with quote
I do agree, I just wish that anime was more available within the UK where I live. DVDs for many anime shows never get released over here, even after they have been dubed and released in the US. Also they are often not available for download due to blocking people outside the US. I just wish that anime companys would help support the fans that want to buy legal copies of there work as well as trying to cut down on illegal downloaders through the courts.

DranzerX13 wrote:
It would be really interesting if companies like TV Tokyo, Fuji TV, or TV Asahi could create a Live TV streaming website for people outside Japan, to show their content either raw or english subbed. Something like this would be awesome. I would love to actually watch TV Tokyo on air legally outside Japan. If something like this were to happen, it would cost of course but i'd be okay with that. Not just that, then I guess some people would stop downloading raws and distributing them.

I'm one to talk though, because I do some of that stuff too.

I do agree that piracy has been going a little too far lately, especially with content that even people in their country can buy easily. I admit that i've done my fair share of downloading anime illegally via the internet, but most of the time I actually buy my stuff. I try to support these companies as much as I can.

I own lots of anime merchandise; DVDs, Video Games, Music, etc.
I'm going to continue buying this stuff for as long as I can.

To everyone that has illegally downloaded their anime (yes even me) to take this in to consideration; All these anime companies work their butts off to both have a roof over their heads, have food on the table, and to give us anime fans things we enjoy. If there is something you've seen and like, we need to show our support to these companies and purchase their stuff. I hate that piracy has been a little over the line lately. you see all this new stuff available for download that just got released. For people that have downloaded these things illegally, it makes it unfair to the people who have paid for it.

Well in my opinion, I find it understandable to download things not on the market anymore. If people are downloading stuff you can't really buy anymore, or not on the market, then the companies wouldn't be making money off those products either way.
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edzieba



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:36 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
If there was no money to be made then practically all anime TV shows, movies, OVAs wouldn't exist
There is money to be made, that much is quite evident. The method of actually making that money is what has gone horribly wrong.

Take a musician for example. It is reasonable to pay a musician to listen to them play a piece of music. It is unreasonable for a musician to play a piece of music once, then expect people all over the world to pay again and again to hear copies of that single performance.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:32 am Reply with quote
edzieba wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
If there was no money to be made then practically all anime TV shows, movies, OVAs wouldn't exist
There is money to be made, that much is quite evident. The method of actually making that money is what has gone horribly wrong.

Take a musician for example. It is reasonable to pay a musician to listen to them play a piece of music. It is unreasonable for a musician to play a piece of music once, then expect people all over the world to pay again and again to hear copies of that single performance.


I fail to see how that's the slightest bit unreasonable. If it's their creation why on earth shouldn't they have the right to charge what they choose for it? Whether they are actively putting in further effort with each sale is irrelevant. They've put in the necessary time to create something and now they should be allowed to profit as long as people are willing to buy.

Even putting that as side though, you haven't addressed my point. Clearly anime can not work on a pay for performance model. In order to turn any kind of profit you're going to need the assurance that it is your creation and so only you can sell it. Without that, how can anyone possibly turn a profit off of anime?
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DranzerX13



Joined: 04 Jun 2006
Posts: 81
Location: USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:42 am Reply with quote
I like to watch Japanese TV, it's very interesting. I just don't get why certain Japanese websites block people from other countries. Its like they don't want us to learn their culture or something.

I just don't get why Japan gets like this over TV raws. Many of these raws are recorded on basic cable stations in Japan. It's not like these raws were on an on-demand channel or something. TV raws are one thing, but ripped from a DVD is another. We should get the right to watch their stuff just like the people in Japan do. Heck, if I could have TV Tokyo on my cable TV at home, I'd buy it definitely, even if there were no subtitles.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:42 pm Reply with quote
If I steal a dollar from someone, that someone would say that's petty, and they would be right. But what if 6million people also steal a dollar each from that same someone. is that still a petty crime?

Here is a little something to add to the plate for chewing over.
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