Forum - View topicNEWS: 11 Arrested in Japan for Uploading via Share Program
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Greboruri
Posts: 376 Location: QBN, NSW, Australia |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
|
|||||||||||||||
They can choose whatever price they want, but the market will force their hand otherwise.
Millions disagree. Otherwise, this discussion wouldn't be occurring right now.
By this logic, a furniture maker should get money every time someone sits in the chair he made, a seamstress should get paid every time someone wears a shirt she made, or I get paid every time someone reads this post.
It's been doing this for decades.
If you really want an answer, please define what you believe profit to be.
Right back at you: Many are paid by the number of sketches they produce, and that price has changed little in three decades. 30 years? So, when you're making a remark about "stealing" dollars, who's really doing the stealing again? I'm confused. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Lovely. Animators aren't being paid enough = wanton piracy is a-OK.
I think the animator's union would want to take a crowbar to your head for twisting their logic that way. The animator's pay problem is a big one, but it's got virtually nothing to do with the consumer. The work-for-hire agreements between the producers and the animation studios, and between the animation studios and the individual animators. Does not justify stealing of content when it's otherwise easily and legally available. At all. Justify it morally all you want, but it's illegal, everyone knows it's illegal, and the logic of that is pretty simple. Whether you agree with that, the law doesn't care. Lots of people don't get it. Watch Judge Judy -- half the people there are completely unable to grasp simple logic. Agree Japanese content owners need to make legally available alternatives, such as iTunes, XBox Live, and hulu (or something similar for the Japanese market). If you don't like how anime is being made, I think you should just stop watching it. In protest. Just walk away from the whole scene. I really like that idea and think you should do it. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
strawberry-kun
Posts: 299 |
|
|||||||||||||||
More like millions of people just want free stuff.
I completely fail to see how your analogy works. I can buy a DVD and watch the show as many times as I want and not have to pay another cent. I think the main disagreement here is I see anime as a product. You don't.
Not really. The anime industry has been making money by selling their products whether it's DVDs or merchandise. If a series is successful, it will encourage companies to invest into having more series created. The only major problem I have with the current system is the abysmally low wages paid to animators.
I think it's pretty obvious what he meant by profit.
I actually agree with you there. Something has to be done about that aspect of the industry without a doubt. However, that doesn't justify piracy. Last edited by strawberry-kun on Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
Daemonblue
 Posts: 701 |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Oh, I'm not saying wanton piracy is ok because the animators aren't being paid enough, just that you can't use the "they're not being paid enough" excuse as to why piracy is bad because as you said, their pay has almost nothing to do with the consumer.
As for the Canada stuff ikill, that's based on court decisions as of current, moreso the music one than the TV (as you said as long as it's for personal use, though how you get it for personal use without DVR or from someone else is kind of beyond me). But as you said, the way the laws are leave a lot to be interpreted in some situations, but I would rather deal with a muddy law than being cut off from my internet just from being accused of piracy with no proof (three strikes). Oh yea, hope you guys in the UK get something done about Mandy over there, the whole idea of what he's pushing for is, honestly, a disgrace to mankind. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
|
|||||||||||||||
I'm hoping this isn't what you walked away with from my post.
That's true regardless if we're talking about digital goods or not. But that's not the point of the statement.
That's not a failure. That's understanding. The analogy doesn't work and it's why I'm confused why so many of you defend it when it comes to an artist.
You're a consumer. The analogy doesn't apply to you.
Why would I do such a thing? Anime is absolutely worthless until it's placed into a product people can use.
I was being a little facetious here, as cartoon characters can't really "perform". But without their "acting", there would be no reason to buy merchandise, right?
I don't want to assume his definition is "textbook". Basically it comes down to this: if anime breaks even (revenue, but no profit), is this a bad thing? I'm starting to believe most of you think it is.
The statement did not imply piracy was justified but merely food for thought that piracy isn't the only thing hurting the artist. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
|
|||||||||||||||
It is a bad thing. A very bad thing. If profits are never made then basically you are pulling from the same pool of money over and over again. You will have exactly the same amount of money that you spent on the new project as you did on your previous one. Any kind of new technique that comes along, new equipment, new software, any new talent you want to hire, even the very length of the series must all remain relatively constant. Production crews will have no incentive to be innovative, since there is zero chance of increasing monetary rewards. And even if they wanted to they couldn't anyway because spending money on some new innovative technique is going to short change part of the production elsewhere and permanently reduce the amount of money future productions draw from. Not to mention the company itself would have no real chance of ever growing, challenging its very reason for being. If you want stagnation, do this. Regardless of what incipient kids are apparently taught in schools these days, profits are not evil. And more often than not they encourage creativity, not hamper it. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
DranzerX13
Posts: 81 Location: USA |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
I wish these companies wouldn't get mad over downloading TV raws, but... downloading video games still on the market, yes including brand new ones as well is a big no no. Downloading old school games for old systems like NES, SNES shouldn't be a problem.
the point is, downloading games, software, (keygens, warez to make the program full for free illegally) DVD's is what these companies should crack down on big time. All of that is way worse than downloading a TV raw. Let's say a new anime show is on. Lots of people download the TV raws of it, and love it. Many of those people then decide to buy the R2J DVDs when they come out and or wait for an overseas release in their country. Or if they don't have enough money for the DVDs, they get other merchandise related to that anime, etc. As for me, when Metal Fight Beyblade started, I've been getting the raws every time they're available. I like the series so much that i've actually been purchasing all the DVDs that have been released so far each month. I've spent around $50.00 USD after shipping to get each of these R2J DVDs. I'm not rich, but I have a job and using some of my spending money to buy them. Even if it means out of all the money I get from work, I can only use around $60.00 a month for extra things and I get that one thing. I hope more people (people that have illegally downloaded their anime, TV raw or not) start to show their support for their favorite series and buy something related to it, be it a DVD, manga, whatever. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
strawberry-kun
Posts: 299 |
|
|||||||||||||||
I know, but what I wanted to point out of those millions of people that disagree with how intellectual property works/should work, how many are doing so just because they want to continue their pay for nothing lifestyle or to try and justify it?
Errr, yeah, I read that right, but somehow my mind jumped to the completely wrong response. Still, I don't agree that your usage of the analogy is accurate. I see no difference between an artist wanting to sell his or her product and a furniture maker wishing to sell his or her furniture. The artist should be able to sell his or her product at whatever price and in whatever way she or she deems acceptable just as the furniture maker would. Both the artist and furniture maker have the right to profit off of their products as long as there is a market for them.
And that's the one of the key disagreements here.
True enough. I thought you meant something completely different.
It's definitely a bad thing. Why do you think most believe that it isn't?
Yes, I fully acknowledge that. Since we were in a thread about piracy though, I had to add that part. Last edited by strawberry-kun on Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||||||||||
Sorry, my mentioning the Wall Streey Journal article point was in contrast to all these "Look at "Voices of a Distant Star". People are picking a labor of love as I understand (or maybe just serious lack of funds) as the model all anime is supposed to follow & that's not happening. That whole labor of love issue is probably WHY animator get paid so poorly. TV Station 7 says "I'll give you a million to make "Tokyo Gals" so maybe to bring the project in, the staff knocks themselves out to bring it in on or under budget, so next year TV Station 7 wants an extra 5 eps added for the same price. Didn't we see that on Buffy? I thought WB, citing the title getting a bit long in the tooth, decided not to increase the budget, or not to increase by as much as Whedon wanted, so he shopped the title. Which really doesn't matter, does it? You can't hold up something like "Voices" (which did nothing for me anyway) as the standard by which all anime should be made.
They do what other industries do. In fact anime does it all the time. They put out different types of titles. And should it ever get to the point where the horse is on its last legs, they kill it like VHS tapes, 8 track tapes, etc. We still see movies & hear music, but mostly not in those formats. If they make a million Elmos & no one wants them, they'll probably be donated to charity, right? Stuffed into furniture. Something. Sales are down in the last couple yrs, but I've been arguing there was a recession coming for those same couple yrs & people here argued with me to prove it. I was seeing my clients (convicted felons) having a harder time finding a job. So it's hard to say how much of the sales drop is recession & how much is lack of interest. If you're out of work, you probably aren't going to buy stuff you can live without. Maybe you'll just watch what's on tv rather than buying the dvds (particularly in Japan where they are exhorbitant). Maybe you'll spurge on a movie as a treat instead of a plushie
Want to know a secret? When I was a little girl around 7, there was a band out called the Irish Rovers who had a hit song called "The Unicorn", but the important issue here is on that lp was a a song about a guy hired to work for some dude where he slaved & slaved & slaved & finally "One day I died & passed away & Old Grady gave a cry "He'll make good fertilizer & there's plenty more like that"" I have remembered that all my life. No one is irreplacable on a job. Maybe the boss will have to hire 2 people to take your place, but if that's the case, that's the case. They want to get as much work out of you for as little as possible. If you've found a better deal-a good boss, you should hold on to it for dear life.
What does the price of tea in London have to do with the price of tea in Japan? It is a different market with a different mentality.
Really? You mean like how some of my convicted felon clients manage to get their old job back after their conviction while others have a devil of a time finding work? You do know when one runs a rap sheet, one gets all that stuff? One can exclude minor traffic violations & all, but when I read a rap sheet, I can see that my guy's been busted for a DUI here, a drug charge there, detained by INS for being here illegally & deported on this particular date... And I really don't buy the excuse the guy gave today of the reason he got caught going 100 mph was his speedometer was broke. I can tell when I hit 80 without looking. And usually they don't bother here until you're at least 10 miles over on the freeway so in a 75 zone I would know when I was pushing it. I'm assuming there are warnings on Japanese dvds just the same as we have warning exactly what one is up for if one violates the law.
Animators being paid crap wasn't the point. The idea that people downloading whatever they want will somehow make up for the fact there aren't more obsessed animators making their own projects outside of the studios. There will always be people who make their own stuff & every so often it pans out (like that Paranormal whatever filmed in Penasquitos for next to nothing). The idea that Miss Otani SHOULD be paid crap because she should want to make anime art for the masses because anime should be free for all to enjoy is wrong.
Isn't thus that same thing we have in the states resulting from Disney's lawsuit against Betamax or whatever that consumers have the right to make a copy for personal use. I believe the fine print is one isn't supposed to share with others & by no means should one sell copies to others. IE-I can record Supernatural, but I can't loan the copy out to someone else. If I buy Supernatural, I can loan my dvd to a friend, but I can't charge for the loan.
I have Showtime, but not HBO, so if I want to see an HBO show I either have to buy the dvds or I can go to a friend's house that has HBO or I can wait for it to move over to one of the other channels as they often do. Where on earth does anything say I or anyone else has the god-given right to see True Blood just because it airs in town if I choose not to pay the station to see it? That I HAVE the inalienable right to be able to download it as soon as it airs in a market that IS paying for it? I'll just have to settle for the Showtime shows or PAY for HBO. What is so hard to understand about that? |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
|
|||||||||||||||
No one has a "right" to see True Blood outside of approved channels but the internet has made it possible to do just that. Just by Googling, one can come up with ways of watching this title without paying HBO anything. That's the problem I think. Technology has advanced in such a way that the distributors/content providers can't control how their product is consumed or figure out how to profit from the new technology. Uploaders and soon certain types of downloaders (YouTube and Nico Nico are exempted.) are going to be caught in the middle. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||||||||||
And that's the issue some of us have. HBO pays good money to air certain sporting events & certain shows. Showtime has Dexter, Californiacation & a bunch of other shows I never watch (I get Starz with Showtime). Why should people who have no connection to paying for these titles post them on sharing networks? WHy should some dude in Tokyo pay the per view cost so he can dvr a special anime showing so he can post it on a sharing site? He paid for his viewing, not the viewing of a few thousand strangers. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||||||||
Well then 'millions' are fools with a vastly inflated sense of self entitlement who fail to grasp the basic concept of investment of time and effort. You can try and split hairs but ultimately it always works the same with any creation. People put in time and effort to create something. They then own that thing and so they are able to try and charge others for it's usage/ownership. Whether the investment is a smaller one for each unit or a large initial investment it doesn't change this.
Yes that's called renting. It's fairly common. I see no problem with it. He made it. Why should he not have the right to market it as he see's fit? Nobody is forced to pay for it. If you don't like the deal, don't buy it. That will probably be everyone's response to a 'chair for rent' which is why nobody would likely ever sell one that way. I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to though. It's not entirely analogous to anime either. Buying an anime DVD would be sort of similar but more akin to paying for a lifetime membership to use the chair. Again though, nothing wrong with that.
Did you actually read the comment I'm responding to at all? I'm talking about live performances, like with music. I can see how music might still work with no copyright but were talking about anime. Anime can not be 'performed' live. It's animation.
Seriously? Fine, I'll play the semantics game. Forget profit. If there is no copyright protection, what model will allow a company or an individual to somehow generate a source of revenue. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
edzieba
Posts: 704 |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
|
Daemonblue
Posts: 701 |
|
|||||||||||||||
It's kind of interesting you brought up live performances with music, seeing as artists make ~4x from lives as they do from CD sales (chart here, couldn't find it on one of the many other sites it's on so I googled it >< And although technically anime can't be "performed" live it can still be released in only theatres. Sure, it's not exactly the best way to show anime, but that doesn't change the fact that there are several theatrical releases every year. In the end though copyright is an evil, but it's a necessary evil, but only necessary until it gets to the point it becomes a detriment to society, and then it's just evil. Sadly, it is getting to the point where it will become a detriment unless something is done. |
||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group