Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2009-12-18]
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Prede
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eyevocal: You like Ghost Stories, the original show? The one that's an anime for little children, and not a particularly good one? And you really wanted ADV to dub that, and keep it close to the original. The show even the creators didn't like? Really? And if the fansubs were good enough for you, the official subs on the DVD should have been fine. So why didn't you buy it?
And what dub would you rather have pencils jammed into your ears then hear again? Orphen? Why? being liberal =/= a bad dub. It's very well acted, very well cast, and the script was great. It is an older dub, and not really up to todays standards I guess, but for the time it was truly a great dub. While your at it why don't you go attack Funimation for changing the lines in Gunslinger Girl, and adding stuff when in the original there's nothing?( Despite that dub being a little liberal, it too was very well done). Or why not attack someone else. Why all this hate on older Foster dubs? If you were talking about 5 Centimeters Per Second or Le Chevalier D'Eon then I really don't know what you want out of your dubs. Because that's some high quality stuff right there... And let's see I was talking about Pani Poni Dash! , Red Garden, and This Ugly Yet Beautiful World, so of course instead of mentioning any of those, you jump to Saiyuki a show I'ver never seen? This is logical why? I'm not following you here. Not at all. Sigh... So some of Foster's older stuff is liberal. So what? His newer stuf sticks much closer to the script and like I said, he knows how to get the right emotions out of his actors. It's not fair to bash him because some older shows were a little liberal with the scripts. Everyone was a little more liberal back then. |
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SXAniMedia
 Posts: 139 |
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Different shows, different objectives, different demographic of buyers. As Foster stated with with the interview he gave with ANN, he wouldn't adapt shows equally - his recent scripts have been pretty tight, especially for dramas.
It has nothing to do with ego, it's simply about business and making it more accessible to a new market of new fans. These are businesses after all. See what's going on with Sgt. Frog and its very liberal adaptation (and almost universal praise by dub fans and critics). Like it or not, these types of adaptations help sell more.
We're already there, the market has contracted to 90s estimates according to several industry leaders like John Sirabella. Courting casual buyers with accessibility is even more critical nowadays.
Don't get me wrong, there is some validity to what you're demanding. There's room for criticism certainly, though I'm not sure this level of vitriol gets anywhere other than Steven Foster telling 'em off as he did in one of the Chevalier D'Eon volumes. 
In the end it's nothing more than fans upholding a falsely imagined standard for the original work. A good ideal, but fans aren't the gatekeepers of such standards - it's merely a figment of their imagination - the Japanese companies and creators are. They approve it if it's to their benefit and don't if it isn't. Such impossibly high standards are rarely of such great concern to even those on the Japanese side. So I don't believe it's a practical perspective where standards are so high and so narrow - business and consumerism isn't isolated in an artistic and pure bubble. It's hard to dispute that titles that need it (adaptation), sales and hype increase. Ghost Stories was one of ADV's better selling titles of the era, on a title no one would have cared about if they had localized it straight. Besides, the unaltered subtitle tracks exists unfettered. It's your personal choice but it doesn't change the dynamics and sales on the ground - which is their chief concern. So to go back to your original point when you said "Stop it" ... You'd have to change the paradigm of consumers and their tastes for that to happen. I don't see that happening, especially with the recent light of Sgt. Frog's situation. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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I'd have to disagree on that concept; while stories with collective protagonists do exist (Akira Kurosawa lived by them), many anime and manga series that revolve around a group have a distinct leader who gets more screen time (or page time, if it's called that), more character development, and is present in every or nearly every important moment in the series. This character would be the protagonist, and the other characters, who may be well-rounded and deep and may even get stories of their own, still function in the story overall to push the protagonist. Collective protagonists, across all fiction, are actually pretty rare. In the case of Dragon Ball Z, the other characters exist largely for the reason you stated: To prevent Goku from making the mistakes his childlike naïveté would cause him to make. They're also there to inspire Goku to go do things or to hold off the villains while Goku is occupied. If any of the characters didn't exist, even a minor one such as Lunch, or even a villain like Frieza, Goku would have been unable to defeat an antagonist later down the line. (This is thinking in terms of the DBZ universe. Akira Toriyama could have easily written many characters out of the manga and tweak later stories to function without them, but it's beside the point.)
This I do agree with. The timing of when a backstory shows up in a story is important. I believe that its timing is equivalent to having the death right there in the story, as far as impact to the audience goes. In the case of Shaman King's Faust, it was placed where it was to give sympathy and context for the character. The flashback happened when it was revealed that his skeleton is Eliza. Had we been shown the flashback earlier, it would've been obvious what he was planning and too much information early on leads to a boring story. Had we been shown it later or never at all, we would feel a lot of hate for Faust and resent his partnership with Yoh instead of supporting him. In the microcosm of the fight between Yoh and Faust when he first appeared, the flashback was at an appropriate point of raising the stakes: the revelation of the motive.
Definitely...though Aaron Dismuke sounded pretty knowledgeable playing Alphonse. I guess that's one trait of him that makes him a good actor. You're probably right about the greater amount of child actors in North America; as the child actor can be brought in by himself or herself and do all the lines right there, he or she will only need maybe an hour or two at most per episode of a TV show, particularly an American-made one where the actors given a script and they read all of their lines, all in a row. The boy voicing Chowder could have easily just spent a weekend once in a while and perform all of the lines for the entire season. With anime, the actors have to watch the animation play out though, so I'd figure it's far more time-consuming. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I'm not a sheep following the crowd over a cliff & I'm apparently too old to appreciate humor where the swear word is supposed to make one laugh, incessant homosexual(lesbian) jokes, etc. Yeah, I actually listened to it subbed & it's an enjoyable show. Do I give a rat's rear it's for children? Again, I'm turning 50 this year & unabashedly love CardCaptor Sakura, a title aimed at children. I don't know how many ADULTS I've met who love Mickey Mouse, a character made for children to love. The original is actually pretty interesting with some better VA's than the US cast (Kotono Mitsuishi-Sailor Moon, Ryusei Nakao-Freeza/DBZ, Sho Hayami-Aizen.Bleach, Jyrouta Kosugi-Arlong/One Piece, Maaya Sakamoto-Haruhi/Ouran though I've loved her since the themes she did for Lodoss-Kiseki no Umi-& CCS-Platinum, Akio Ohtsuka-Batou/GitS, Megumi Ogata-Yue/CCS, Wataru Takagi-Valgaav/Slayers, Fumiko Orikasa-Seras/Hellsing, Tomoko Kawakami-Chiriko/Fushigi Yugi). Geeks made enough to buy their booze, but it doesn't make biting the heads off chickens a respectable form of entertainment.
Really? I seem to recall a certain faction always despized it. Koyasu puts in a truely wonderful performance as Flamesoul in the 2nd season the director saw fit not to have the American actor pursue I still see as a cop-out. Frankly, I don't really think of ADR directors as all that much. In the rankings of Japanese credits the Sound Director is usually pretty buried & the dub ADR has the basics all laid out & just has to get the acting out of his actors. Considering the sordid past of US dubs, I'd hope they're used to a lot of hate. It has to take a special person to be able to totally screw up a dub when the original is alewady laid out for them to refer to. I have far more respect for the California studios which often try to stick closer to the original. It has NEVER made any sense to me that there's a fanbase out there that wants the title licensed (Saiyuki for example) yet the ADR director feels the need to muck with the script. I'll give one a certain amount of room with humor because that seriously varies country to country, but Generator Gawl was like a totally different story for no damned good reason.
I find Funi's "Reversioned" label as irritating as fingernails down a chalkboard. You licensed the title due to some sort of demand, yet you feel the need to redo it? New Coke? I tend to listen to a lot of Funi dubs subbed. [quote="Prede"] Or why not attack someone
Foster's the hebate you are having. Why would the person drag in Funi?
But you can try to drag in Funi when the subject is Foster? Saiyuki is a wonderful title. I was very pissed off when ADV monkeyed with their mix & I couldn't watch the 4th & 5th dvds with the subs up to compare how far the dub was straying (which it had been doing quite a bit up to that point. Maybe I didn't trust them after Generator Gawl?). Maybe if I'm watching a title based on a manga I & many others love, I'd prefer they keep a closer eye on the original dub.
Really. Listen to Koyasu's Flamesoul. That's an all-out performance. It almost seems as though the English dub is too timid to go that far out. On the other hand, the dub for Gungrave did a wonderful job. I mean, an anime is the vision of the director, right? In Japan they often cast because they have a certain vision in mind. VA's often do certain types of roles not unlike movie actors become known for doing certain types of roles. So isn't it a bit insane to stomp all over that vision & cast a totally different voice tone in the role? Sort of changes the original vision, doesn't it? It'd be like Indiana Jones with Tom Sellick (the original choice). ADV & Funi have always had a poor rep in that respect, casting whoever, & even cast comments the director wouldn't let them watch the original title in its entirety or see how their part fit into the rest of the title by even reading the whole script.
Do yourself a favor & watch the cast interviews for Magic Knight Rayearth where they talk about cast members sitting around watching the episodes in Japanese prior to dubbing them. There's a difference between respecting the source material & running roughshod over it. I grew up with roughshod (Astro, Kimba). Respect is much better. Drastic re-writing of the script does speak of a certain arrogance.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was using your arguments to expand mine. DBZ was a bad example because Toriyama is quite insistant on Goku as the hero. Ichigo is obviously the hero in Bleach, but Kubo is influenced to a certain extent by Saint Seiya which also has an obvious main hero, but also draws on the 5-man team thing so the other 4 get more than their fair share of the story. Indeed, Shun & Ikki are major components of the Hades arc & Pegasus is seen far less. Bleach also manages to run for chapters without checking in with Ichigo. DBZ was the quickest example that came to mind.
The method of dubbing anime in Japan is similar to a stage production in the clips I see. Particularly, it reminds me of the old radio shows & stuff I've seen of them airing stuff, particularly the old live shows with an audience so there was no re-do's. It's similar to old soaps like Dark SHadows because the tape would only be stopped in the case of extreme mistakes--minor flubs were allowed to remain. With the way it's done in Japan, it inconveniences all involved. You have some actors doing more than one show per week who might have their schedule thrown off. I remember someone involved with Banner of the Stars commenting they were surprised Kaneto Shiozawa was late because he was always so prompt, but assumed it was due to his heavy schedule, then they heard he'd died. A child screwing up could make the other actors & crew late for other work, thus affecting that other title. It seems they're more prone to use children for movies which are probably more like our movies-on a more relaxed schedule. If something delays the shoot, the release date gets postponed. Weekly tv if they run late they risk not finishing in time to air. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I shall commend you for acknowledging both sides to this issue. As has been mentioned before however, the sort of show you wish to see still crops up amongst the titles to which you're averse. As somebody with aesthetic inclinations different to yours, I do not view the criticisms made as being particularly damning. Indeed, if the 'inaccessible' genres only enjoy transient popularity, then you are in a position to look forward to whatsoever may succeed them. It may be that succeeding trends will better serve the public at large, as opposed to the smaller fanbases of which I am a member, provided the means to access these larger markets can be established and maintained. Such a criterion is, prima facie, an economical one. As such, focus must first be placed on modernising business models in order for your aesthetic desires to be better served. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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 Joke's on him though, since the fansubs were never finished.
And I love that complaint about the "pussy" insult in Steel Angel Kurumi. You've got a show set in 1920's Japan that involves floating war fortresses, modern tanks, giant mecha, Onmyou magic, and of course incestuous lesbian robot battle maids awakened with kisses, and he's calling out dialogue for being anachronistic?! |
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The King of Harts
 Posts: 6712 Location: Mount Crawford, Virginia |
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I may be wrong, but I always thought dubs were made for dub fans? Hearing a "subbie" complain about dubs is kind of ridiculous if you ask me. That's like a guy complaining about how uncomfortable thongs are; they aren't made for you. Also, honestly, if I was Steven Foster and heard a bunch of sub fans complaining about my dubs, I wouldn't give a damn. You know why? Dub fans like his dubs and that's all that matters.
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egoist
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Oh, I complain about dubs every time I have the chance to. Like now. But perhaps dubs were made for dub fans, or maybe they were created for subs fans(like me) who want to have an English soundtrack on their DVDs, or both. Even though it's never going to be used, unlike public toilets. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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If it's never going to be used, then why do you care?
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I have to disagree with you here. I moved with the series to Geneon & find no problem with Reload & Gunlock beyond the cheap animation that was plaguing the industry at the time (poorly animated eps every so often. It was almost like they had different teams working on eps for this, YuGiOh, KKM & one team really sucked). The base material (the manga story) is wonderful. The only complaint I hear from the fans is the change of VA's, not the change of the writing of the dub. I heard so much good stuff about E's, but after I bought it, I found it fair to middlin'-solidly average. I bought Generator Gawl waaaay back there I have been planning to re-watch it because now I've seen more anime I'd like to compare the dif between the Japanese & the English tracks (I watched it in English, but noted there were difs in the 2 which made little sense. I give modest changes like jokes because humor does vary from region to region, much less other countries, but I never saw the sense when the subs mention a length of time or size & the dub alters it) Unfortunately even though the economy has forced me to reduce my buying, I'm still constantly behind in my watching so it's actually been a year I've been trying to watch Gawl. |
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eyevocal
Posts: 137 |
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The quality is your opinion only. Bollocks on that "The creators didn't like it"; why did they make it, then? As for its intended audience--big fat hairy deal. Sailor Moon was made for little girls, but a wide spectrum of ages in both sexes love it. Who am I to tell them they're wrong about something as personal as taste?
Because I would sooner go without the show than give BANKRUPTCYLOOPHOLE my money to end up supporting a practice that I am thoroughly against. I did the same thing with Princess Tutu when they translated the characters' names in both the dub and sub. If I could line-item the money I spend on this sort of thing and go "knock off that stupid and unfunny rewrite, and let me keep the money that wanker would get for it so I could buy a small coffee instead," I would.
Several people beg to disagree with you, especially Mike Toole of Anime World Order. In fact, did you read Daryl from AWO's post in the thread in reply to the Foster interview? Guys, if you're reading this: If we ever meet, I want to buy you drinks/coffees/something to eat.
I haven't checked it out because I didn't like Gunslinger Girl enough to want to watch it again (it turned me on to the Delgados' music, though), but if they hacked it up as badly as Foster does, then the people behind that decision can go do something aggressively Anglo-Saxon to themselves as well.
I want them done by somebody who loves and respects anime, not by a raging egotist who needs to have a gun put to their head to do something resembling a respectable job.
And you jump straight to Funi when I was talking about one particularly bad example of what I regard as an Enemy of Anime. As I tried to demonstrate in my original Answerfans post (and you obviously missed), I'm not prejudiced--I hate all people who feel the need to demonstrate that they can write better than the original Japanese creators by using their work to wipe their asses and then flinging it at us. To all you people (not just Foster): If you think that your work can beat that of the people we honestly want to support when we buy anime, then prove it. WRITE SOMETHING ORIGINAL and try to get some legs on it. Let's see how you do then.
With the emotions being the fear and stress of "do this gig as best as I can or I don't eat." It's not like many of the dub actors really like anime themselves. They learned to like it when they got the cheque in their hands.
Only because he would have been strung up by the goolies by the fans if he had tried to Fosterize the Shinkai stuff.
In the short term, but if they hack off their core audience who stuck with them through thick and thin and the fickle people who'd fall for that crap drift off to the Next Big Hip Consumer Thing, then they'd be up Spit Creek.
You know full well what I mean, wise guy. Anime adaptations were crap at the beginning, and I don't want those days to ever come back again.
*snort* Did he ever stop to consider the reason why he caught enough flak to feel the need to respond to the people who fire it at him? To me, that's proof that he's not only egotistical, but obliviously so.
Blah, blah, blah. Most anime titles which are licensed and released here have good and faithful adaptations. If they didn't, the glaringly awful ones wouldn't stand out so much. If most of them can have it, then why can't all of them?
Excuse me, but I'm a consumer, too. I have money the companies want. I'd like to give it to them if they can sell me what I want--an adaptation with as little of the adapter's ego in it as possible--in exchange. If they can't, then I let them know why they're not getting my money, and inform others who might find that as important as I do. If you don't dance with the one who brought you, then you can bloody well walk home from the dance by yourself. Dig?
I would have made it a little more natural-sounding ("How can you do that at a time like this!?"), but that's still no excuse to totally obliterate it.
Go joke yourself. I've got enough of an anime backlog to watch to be able to do without one show which was subjected to abuse that my principles won't allow me to support. I ain't hurtin'.
And just who are you to say which shows are mediocre or not? There are enough fans of all of these shows who feel that he crapped all over them.
Like I'm going to stick around after that just to find out what more damage he did. Do you respond to accidentally hitting your head on something by doing it some more times on purpose? That was enough of a red flag for me.
All generalizations suck and all people who make them are fools. There are also dub fans out there who refuse to buy titles if they see his name in the credits, so not all dubbies go "baaaaaa." Also, the thong comparison is a bad one; it's more like I'm being forced to buy thongs I don't want because the company stuck them into the package of Y-fronts I actually wanted. Dave. |
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SXAniMedia
Posts: 139 |
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Can't a civil discourse on this topic occur without such pointed language?
I'm not prede, but I'll take that one ... And conversely yours only. Hence why I brought up the point that it boils down to other factors - marketing and sales.
That goes back to the original point I made previously about imagined keepers of standards. Fans aren't the guardians of such standards, at least singularly - collectively yes via collective wallets - and collectively these types of adaptations for some series sell better in R1. About the ego thing, so purists are talking for the creator and production companies now? Fans know better than the people who funded these productions? Where do you guys show up in the credits, I'm sure we'd all like to know. 
The latter point could be asked of you as well - Start your own production company or studio and fund your own anime. If these companies are doing it wrong, surely you it would be very easy do better and make the kinds of money to satisfy the Japanese production companies... right?
And you criticize King of Harts for generalizing... If you hold the American VA's in such contempt, why do you care so much when the tight-script in subtitles of the original is available? Your perfect original cast (that eats, breathes and sleeps anime) is available with a flick of the audio switch.
How do you know he didn't? I doubt anyone can see what's truly in someone's mind and heart. Folks are basing their opinions on commentary tracks and the interview (which is a PR piece and of course he'd be guarded, and in PR mode there). Regardless, with the kind of venom he got, I don't blame him one bit for letting loose.
Because everything is the same, same production companies, same licensing fees, same demographics, same buyers who buy PPD are exactly 100% the same group that buy Kino's Journey and the same people who buy DBZ. It's all the same. This seems to be a fatal flaw in the logic happening with various people complaining about anime lately. They treat everything as equal. But XYZ title (that'll sell 50K units) is getting a dub, I DEMAND ABC title (that'll sell 800) gets a dub too because me and my otaku friends at MAL like it! Ghost Stories, a series like a handful of people liked in its original (which by the way almost none of them talked about prior to the info breaking with ADV jazzing up the dub) somehow all 3 or whatever of these people would be enough to cover the licensing and dub costs... This reminds me of the Sgt Frog vitriolic debate that went on at AoD some weeks ago, where the purist voices were so few and so rabid that few took them seriously.
Absolutely, and you have every right to vote with your wallet, voice your distaste with the realities of the industry and live in a world of rigid ideals. As do I, as does Prede for our differing ideals... regardless of the debate, it doesn't change the fact that the numbers are against you. Funimation's been doing it a while and have opened up the market to more casual fans because of it. For ADV, Ghost Stories did very well. That's the bottom line. Anyway this is all just so moot now, given Foster's stricter adaptations. I'm moving on to something more relevant now, like Macek and Robotech The Movie.
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eyevocal
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No, because people who rewrite dubs in their own image assume that we're stupid and can't appreciate the subtleties of the original stories (especially if said stories didn't really have any subtlety in them in the first place). People with that attitude deserve everything they have coming to them as a result.
No. When it can be proven objectively that most of Foster's (and others who pull that same crap) dub rewrites are precisely that, it's no longer opinion. Also, given BANKRUPTCYLOOPHOLE's current precarious standing in the industry, I don't see them dare trying this sort of thing ever again. If they ever do dare, I'll be the first one in their faces to go, "look, eff off with that crap. If you feel the need to alter it, don't bloody licence it in the first place. See you in the bargain bins."
In the short term. In the long term, fans take it as a distinct lack of good will towards them and don't drop as much money on new anime in the future.
How far up your colon did you have to reach to pull out the idea that I feel I'm speaking for the creators/production companies? I'm speaking for myself as a fan of the creators' original work and anyone who feels the same way about it (unless they speak up for themselves, of course, and more of them should).
I'm not insane enough to try to start an anime company with the industry and economy being the way they are, especially with ANNcast providing more proof than ever that the Japanese companies themselves are largely (but not solely) responsible for the sorry state the North American anime market is currently in. However, I'm also not stupid or gullible enough to blindly suck up crappy western treatments of anime I like because I supposedly have no other legal alternative. Yes, I do; it's called, "Don't buy it, and tell the company that, if they don't give you what you want, you won't give them what they want."
Nice of you to gloss over the part where I said "many of the dub actors," which is a fact that can be proven by checking out R1 DVD extras where said actors are being interviewed. Many of them do say that they didn't know about anime or the industry until somebody working with them in a theatre production hipped them to the fact that there's an acting gig here. And it pays. Whoopie!!! (However, I'll be dipped if I can remember a single actor saying they got into dubbing anime because they genuinely love anime and wanted to pitch their skills towards making a good run of it. Can anyone else?) Before you open your yap and ask, "You're a subbie, what are you doing checking that out?", I'll tell you--I don't really have anything against the actors per se. I've met some of them when we've had them as guests at cons I've attended or helped run, and I've been lucky that they've all been decent people. Whatever you might think about extras featuring them, I like them, because you get them the way they more naturally are, not how some ADR director with a barely-hidden agenda molds them (meaning either compressing them into a form of their own devising, or growing fungus on them).
He earned every drop of it by ruining a whole lot of anime that people like, and continues to earn it every time he opens his egotistical yap. If stuff like the interview with him here is only what he comes out with in PR mode, then it gives one a damn good idea just how his mind really works. You don't have to strain much to hear a lot of his synapses going, "I rool, and yoo drool, d00d. because I say so. Guh-hyuck!"
I believe it's already been established that the whole "demographics" thing is by and large bollocks as far as anime goes. Any Card Captor Sakura or Escaflowne fan can tell you what the results of attempting to jam something into one "demographic" have been. Besides, I'm in my 40's now. There's almost no anime for my "demographic" (although I should check out Master Keaton). According to "demographics," I should be into staid, static, boring things. French seal that. I like what I like.
Yeah, but a lot of titles like those are not getting dubs anymore. Less aggravation for me. Another good reason to be a subbie. Sorry, dub actors. I do sincerely hope that you can keep afloat somehow. On the other hand, you ADR directors who obviously don't really like anime: Don't let the door hit you where the deity split you on the way out.
I would rather that they didn't pick it up than to pick it up and blatantly encourage Foster to...well, considering that a lot of music fans consider jazz to be musical masturbation (and a lot of it doesn't exactly dispel that notion), then "jazzing it up" is a very apt description of what he does to a lot of shows.
I haven't followed those, but I also haven't hurtled headlong into buying it because I haven't really seen any of the series yet to make up my mind about it. Perhaps a friend of mine could lend me their copy--which could also help me form my own opinion about the dub.
Yeah. Once. The audience won't fall for that a second time. If BANKRUPTCYLOOPHOLE try to do that again, they're going to get all of the flak they got from Ghost Stories (with a big side order of "you cynical bastards"), and none of the sales. Like I said, most adaptors/directors don't screw around like this, so it's not like I'm holding them up to an impossible standard. You call them "rigid ideals;" I call them "standing for something so I don't fall for anything." Watson. |
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