Forum - View topicShould ANN re-examine its policy on off-topic discussions?
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dragon695
 Posts: 1377 Location: Clemson, SC |
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Except that doesn't help the situation at hand, where the problem arises regardless of status. I think it would probably be a good idea to have one for general/unrelated discussions or perennially debated discussions that exists outside of the subscriber zone. I don't see the Community forum fulfilling that need. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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Like the handful of topics that always pop up every so often no matter how many times threads get locked on those topics? I agree with the sentiment that it may seem....pointless to a degree to shut them down when they keep popping up. However, if you simply let the animals run free in the zoo it still creates more problems. Sure it's a pain keeping them in their cages at times but the alternative is just worse.
Perhaps they are but if they follow the rules and post real "posts" that are more than one liners, inflammatory, etc then where's the problem? It may be circular and pointless to YOU but obviously not to those who are participating in the discussions. If the participants want to go around in circles but do so following the rules why should said topic be shut down? If the discussion becomes circular and pointless/repetitious to you then here's an idea.....walk away from the topic. Go to a different one and just walk away and leave the others to their discussion. If it makes them happy running in circles and they don't violate any rules then why spoil their fun? Go find a new ride to get on and enjoy.
Actually the subscriber thread fulfills that need exactly. You can have almost any discussion you want in it provided you still abide by the rules of being civil and using complete whole sentences. Even that second part is greatly relaxed in the Comm section. The simple fact is, and has always been, ANN's forums are not a free for all like other places such as AOD/Mania or MAL. They expect a higher level of discussion and don't allow OT threads. This is an anime/manga forum first and foremost and as for the site the articles and news/encyclopedia are the main focus. The forum is really a secondary aspect of ANN. That's not going to change so it's best to just accept it and not keep beating a dead horse. The Comm section is the compromise by the staff to give an OT section for discussion. Plus subscribers do get several other perks as well so it's not even as if you're simply paying for OT discussion. A faster dedicated server, first peaks at content, give aways, and more. And if OT discussion is honestly that important to you then there are other anime forums such the aforementioned AOD and MAL you can go to which are much more relaxed in their rules and enforcement. An OT section also is a much bigger burden for the mods. In the Comm section it's not an issue much as we're expected to conduct ourselves with extra maturity in payment basically for relaxed rules and the ability to post OT content. So basically act like an adult and get treated like one. If there was an OT thread/zone in the general area of the forums it would be mass chaos. People can't even get along and stay civil in many threads as is. Plus I can already imagine the incessant amount of whining that could occur as to why "such in such's post was ok but not mine. in such a section that is a free for all. I'm sorry man but again it's just beating a dead horse. I have seen countless requests for this and I would bet every dollar to my name Chris (Tempest) will NEVER cave in on this particular subject. Not unless you win the mega millions and donate a million bucks to ANN. Then maybe he'd CONSIDER it. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yes. This is my feeling on the matter as well.
I agree completely if that's the only thing the topic is about. It would be stupid to go into the Aniplex Pricing thread and demand it be shut down simply because you don't think it is going anywhere. If you don't like it there's no reason you can't just avoid it. Same goes for more or less dead threads. On the other hand though, if we're talking about a thread that covers a variety of topics, and is still very much alive and well, then I think that's unfair. People shouldn't be forced out of a topic just because it has been taken over by one particular debate. That's what happens when a thread is enveloped by one of these hot topic debates though. It makes it pretty tough to discuss anything else. As a result, all the other potential topics related to Aniplex's solicitations, and all the people interested in discussing them, get frozen out. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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No, no discussions get frozen out. Anyone is free - right now - to go into the Aniplex solicitation thread and talk about anything other than pricing. Heck, other people might even join in. And if no one does? Well, that's just the community telling you it's not interested. C'est la vie.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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In the literal sense, yeah. Everyone is free to still post in that thread. But that's fairly immaterial. Literally nothing anyone does on this board actually prevents anyone else from posting. That doesn't mean some behaviour isn't still disruptive and causes people not to post though. In this case, nobody is going to read or post in that Aniplex thread because nobody wants to wade through page upon page of a debate like that. So yeah, it absolutely does freeze out other discussion. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Nope. It's an Aniplex solicitation thread and there hasn't been an actual Aniplex solicitation in a while. So even if the price topic hadn't come up, the thread would be buried on page ... whatever. It's not like posters uninterested in a price discussion are missing out on any important information.
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Well why are there pages of posts regarding that debate? Because clearly that is what people want to talk about in regards to Aniplex and their solicitations. The key component you're missing is that when it comes to what Aniplex is licensing and how they treat those licenses this is quite frankly the big issue right now, and it's going to come up. Again, you're asking us to tell people not to talk about something that is relevant to the topic because the fans of Aniplex don't want to hear it. Well, that's too bad, but again we're not making special bastions of "fans only and if you have something negative you can't say it here".
Earlier someone said that it's an issue because it's discussing Aniplex's pricing as a whole and not just on a release by release basis. However, Aniplex's pricing schemes and history of treatment of their licenses is very relevant to discussions regarding AoA and in regards to how their licensing an IP will effect their fans. And yes, another thread was opened on this topic, but that opens up another can of worms. If people start opening up threads in every instance where some detractors start posting in threads they like are we then supposed to start telling people, "nope, you can't post here anymore because they opened another place for you to post away from them". That's a slippery slope I'm not ready to tread down. If a discussion is opened then you can expect people from all sides of that topic are going to weigh in, creating another place and telling them they have to post there instead isn't the proper way to silence critics. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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That's absolutely NOT what I'm saying and I'd appreciate if you'd stop claiming it is. You don't have to agree with me but DO NOT put words in my mouth. I've already explicitly stated that this is not my contention. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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That's not it at all and you're deliberately misrepresenting both the situation and the problem that people have with the Aniplex solicitations thread. As ikillchicken correctly said you're putting words in his mouth. No-one has said that they only want pro-Aniplex discussion in the thread. What the general complaint seems to be is that the thread is for multiple topics (pricing, packaging, release format, et cetera) and if yet the last 5+ pages are taken up with nothing but people arguing on Aniplex in general. I think someone said that they wouldn't have a problem if talk about pricing was confined to the specific solicitations, but that it's not the case. I know what they're saying is true, because I actually visited the Retail sub-Forum (for the first time in ages) and read the last few pages of the thread. And yeah, it's just people talking about how AoA screw fans over and whether investing in the company is a good idea and stuff like that. Anything but actual solicitations. The discussion in that thread is simply a carry-on from all the soapboxing that goes on in these forums. Every Aniplex thread seems to devolve into bickering about why prices are apparently too high and how AoA is "killing the industry" and crap like that. Ask Zac, he'll confirm that Aniplex threads in the Talkback sub-Forum are plagued by this. It's basically turned into a sub vs dub sort of argument where the same old points and examples and comparisons are dragged into each new thread and nothing new ever comes out if it. Given the futility and repetitiveness of the discussion, and how it was hogging the solicitations thread, I fully understand why someone would want to excise it from the thread. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Your characterization of the repetitive nature of the discussion is a lot of baloney. It stems from the fact you yourself aren't particularly interested in the topic. If it was something that interested you - i.e. is it plausible for skirts to not float in zero gravity - you'd have no problem with the discussion or prolonging it yourself. Typical dtm42 hypocrisy at work here. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
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I should have clarified a bit more. I agree if it's a more finite or specific topic then yea just let people circle around the wagon. If it's more open or varied obviously more leeway and understanding should be given then. Sorry if I didn't specify that clearly enough. I also agree often more open topics do get ramrodded sometimes by a singular debate that just takes over all others. Honestly for me those are more annoying as I find that sort of "thread take over" to be more stifling to getting more varied posts. Of course OT threads in the Comm section I would say are exceptions because....well they're OT lol. Honestly I just don't get why there's so much going on about the pricing over in that thread. Seems a lot like pointless ranting from many people. And considering that ikill is right Blood, while yes anyone can TECHNICALLY go there and discuss other aspects who honestly will want to? The odds of someone wading through all that angst to try and change the topic is unlikely. As it would be and has been in countless other threads that wound up in similar circumstances. When such "debates" completely derail a thread that is more open though a moderator......"suggestion" to try and change up the topic is a good idea sometimes to give people a chance to try and change the direction. If given that chance no one decided to then yes, C'est la vie. Sometimes though it is helpful to simply create a pause in the discussion to give people an opening. If they don't take it then they have nothing to complain about after that. At this point though I think this particular thread has run it's course. This thread was about the OT policy and Chris quite earnestly addressed that already. Anything regarding the Aniplex thread should probably either be in it or in a separate thread regarding the mess there. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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So ... instead of trying to change the dynamic or discussion in that thread, it is a better use of poster time to come to this thread and bitch about an ontopic discussion that they aren't interested in? Seems like bizarre logic to me. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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I'm not saying he said it, but that is basically how I am interpreting the request overall and nothing presented thus far has convinced me this is not the case. I mean, how is this request not an attempt to have us shut down that line of discussion in that thread and prohibit people from bringing up the primary reasoning behind the opinions on the other side of the fence? No matter what, whether it's Aniplex or release specific, so long as people are allowed to voice their negative opinion towards Aniplex this issue is going to continue to show up, the only way to prevent that is to specify that those people can not post in the thread.
Because, whether you like it or not, the 5+ pages of people arguing is very much about the pricing, packaging, release format, et cetera (more pricing than anything). So again, it's an argument and a debate, yes, but it's also on topic and in line with the threads discussion.
That is a weak standpoint and completely impossible to enforce. I can't tell people they can be critical of Aniplex but not without referencing their general business practices and recent history. Even if I did attempt to do that such a topic would inevitably be referenced because like it or not is a very key component in the discussion and in how people feel about Aniplex and the licenses they do or do not obtain.
And you know what? Sub versus Dub debates and arguments are also still allowed so long as they are on topic to the thread and remain civil. These are the things people talk about, and these are the things that matter to a great many in the fanbase.
Which is effectively censorship by telling people they can not express their concerns or issues with Aniplex specifically because some people don't want to see it. It is not violating the rules and is not only on-topic, but is a very key element of that topic. Sorry, but this is a controversial subject that has become a big deal to a large segment of the fanbase, so if you're going to open a thread to discuss Aniplex's licensing and releases it is a topic that is going to come up. |
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Mesonoxian Eve
Posts: 1858 |
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If I may...
It's no surprise the issue of price is going to come up with any topic stamped with "Aniplex", but even moderators and staff should realize these discussions never stop there. Instead, users take it upon themselves to delve into speculation of economics, markets, and business practices they all believe are wrong. If the staff and moderators wish to allow users to object to the price issue, that's fine, but please give everyone else a break by stopping the "discussions" of speculative business practices. That's not a gray area. It's clearly black and white and something needs to be done to shut these types of conversations down in a thread that has nothing to do with Aniplex's business. As for the other issue of a subject changing during a normal conversation, I concur this is always a gray area. However, be mindful everyday conversation works in the same manner. I can see why moderators want to cease a discussion because it has evolved into an "agree to disagree" moment, but those aren't terribly difficult to spot when they form. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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I'm still trying to figure out where Keonyn got the idea that suggesting the off topic discussion of Aniplex of America's relation and effect on the broader R1 market be moved was somehow a move to shut down all negative discussion by their fans, but I suppose I should make my case for it being off-topic far more explicitly since he seems deadset on denying it:
Very little of the discussion involves any mention of specific solicitations. If they were talking about how they don't feel the included extras justified the price while others countered with how they feel they do, it'd be fine and perfectly on topic; however, this tends to quickly derail into generalities that could easily take place in a separate topic(which happens to exist) with points that don't have anything to do with the solicitations at hand. Eg: "I don't think a sound track and a couple of posters justifies paying $75 for four episodes. I'd much prefer Sentai released it in one of their barebones sets." "This is just another example of Aniplex of America's price gouging." "Aniplex is using AoA to drive the R1 prices up; I really hope they go out of business before they can." As a one-off mention, the latter two are fine, but when it blows up into a discussion about whether they'll be able to rearrange the NA market, whether they really want to and how much Papa Sony is willing to lose to keep them afloat, it moves into a separate topic that should be discussed into its own thread. Sometimes such things don't last long enough to bother, but AoA raises enough hackles that it inevitably starts a pages-long debate/yelling match on the matter. This inevitably disrupts the discussion of the actual solicitations, which is the actual point of the thread if you'll recall. As for the claim this is something that only fans of AoA want, I personally don't care that much for them at all. The "defense" of them I launched in the thread was an attack on PrecisionCrab's gut-wrenching levels of churlish stupidity. |
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