Forum - View topicAnime in America: Theron and Carl's Best (and Most Notable) of 2009
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Yes, I, too, am getting sick of dtm42 soapboxing his hatred of Toradora!. And it's at the point where I can roll my eyes when you start talking about Toradora! because I know there's a Kimi ni Todoke comparison in the works (I've seen it probably four times by this point).
If you insist on constantly comparing the two, I will tell you right now that I will always love Toradora! more. It is in no way cliched. Ryuuji is not some doormat character--it's revealed later how much he needs to care for others, and the great lengths he goes to to cheer Taiga up (the santa outfit, constantly cooking for her, etc.). He gets into a serious, physical fight with her over her dad, and doesn't end up beaten into the ground by the "tsundere lead"--instead she capitulates to his wishes, putting her own happiness aside, because she cares for Ryuuji. How is that cliche in any way? I also really don't see how you can accuse Ryuuji of being a "typical male harem lead"--he likes Minorin forever. Then there's Taiga, but the way she treats others is an understandable defense mechanism considering her family. It's also revealed that she has a vulnerable side; the point is that while she seems a typical tsundere, it's shown on multiple occasions the lengths she goes to for her friends' happiness (giving up on spoiler[Ryuuji for Minorin], trying to get along with her father for Ryuuji's sake, etc.) These characters are so multi-faceted (Kushieda and her speech about ghosts and UFOs, and creating happiness with her own hands; Ami who will walk the same path as Ryuuji, albeit a little farther ahead, torn between wanting to be the unobtrusive observer and acting on her own feelings). I've tried to cite examples. I can't really do much if the humor didn't click with you; I find certain parts of it hilarious but it depends on how much you care about the characters. Now if you want to keep comparing Toradora! to Kimi ni Todoke, then I can play that game. I've seen half of the latter, and while it's definitely a solid show I've seen barely any progression in the lead relationship. Instead there's been a lot of pussyfooting, and while it appears that Sawako is growing as a person, when push comes to shove her growth is going at a snail's pace. That might be realistic but it's also frustrating, especially when I prefer really strong female leads (not enough of these). And yes, in terms of the genre, Kimi ni Todoke is a standout. But the side characters are still two-dimensional and we haven't seen them face any real conflict yet in the scope of their own lives, so the focus remains on the enigmatic Kazehaya and the mouse-like Sawako. It's a nice show, even a lovely show, but a little too simplistic and slow-paced for me (plus who the hell calls someone else 'refreshing' like they're an energy drink?). The point is, it's time to bury the hatchet. We all know how you feel about it, and even if you can't like it it might be worth your time to at least appreciate it for its merits (that's the way I feel about RahXephon, anyway). Or, you can continue to be immature, and every time someone talks about how they love it, call it a piece of garbage etc. etc. I really don't like getting angry. I don't usually "take the bait" or "rise to the occasion." I am totally fine with people disliking or even hating the show. But I won't stand by and watch something near and dear to my heart slandered over and over again without saying anything; it's not what you say it's the way you say it. I am fed up. Peace, Rainbow Last edited by rainbowcourage on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:46 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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Majority does not equal quality. This is why some games, anime and other forms of entertainment age horribly, people began to see the show from what it really is. Having never seen Toradora all I can say is that both sides are equally annoying. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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First of all, I like NGE. Oh, in a debate about RahXephon versus NGE I will happily trash the latter, but it is a great show nevertheless. Pity about the last two episodes and the second half of End of Evangelion, both of which let down the franchise. But yeah, generally I like it.
But as for popular Anime I hate like Texhnolyze, Toradora!, Eureka seveN, or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (Haruhi Season 2 is an entirely different matter), well I don't hate them because it's fun. I don't hate them because my feelings are hurt. No, I actually hate them because they are popular. Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not the kind of person to jump on the hate bandwagon as so many Death Note detractors seem to have done. But few things get me annoyed faster than seeing a mediocre (or worse) Anime get hyped through the stratosphere. So a mediocre show getting ignored means I might just dislike it. But if I see such a show getting huge acclaim, then I hulk out. There are so many overlooked gems out there, and yet all people can think about is stuff like K-ON or TTGL or Lucky Star or Toradora!. That's what gets my blood pressure boiling. I guess in a way I'm like a mirror. Whenever there is an Anime that gets too popular than the level it deserves, with rabid fans who cannot see the glaring faults in their beloved titles,* then I will be there. I will have the opposite view, of course, and I'll hold it just as vehemently as the fans hold theirs. I think this behaviour stems from my subconscious' personal mission to try and get people to see reason. I say subconscious because I just cannot leave it alone; it's like an itch I have to scratch. Anyway, enough psychoanalysis. Long and the short of it is, for whatever reason, if I don't like something I will say so. Ergo, Toradora! is most certainly not the best unlicensed Anime out there. Not even close. It is mediocre at best, and that's being generous. * Oh sure, I have many beloved titles; Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 and Kimi ni Todoke being the two big ones for 2009. But at least I can see the faults in them. So I love them warts and all, instead of trying to pretend the warts don't exist like some people do. Of course, it is easy when one likes titles which are actually good rather than mediocre. Much easier. ----------
I said this when? If you are going to use quotation marks, then you are implying that I actually said that. But I don't remember saying that. As for the rest of what you said, well if you cannot see how a guy who will cook for a girl who repeatedly physically assaulted him and used him as a footrest is being a doormat, then we really are on different wavelengths. Edit: fixed minor typo. Last edited by dtm42 on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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That's as nonsensical as liking them because they're popular. Allowing popular opinion to dictate what you like or dislike and the magnitude of either feeling is just foolish. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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"Popular" is the last thing Texhnolyze is. I was able to recommend it to a few people to watch for an ANN Book Club thread, and there were some that found the show to be really engaging to watch and discuss. Eight pages or so resulted (don't recall the exact amount) -- that's the largest amount of discussion that Texhnolyze has received ANYWHERE on the Internet. Texhnolyze is an obscure anime series that's thematically and narratively ambitious. The pacing can put people off. It has some arguable optimism in its messages, but it's also very dark. There is nothing else like it in anime; it is far closer to films by Andrei Tarkovsky, Victor Erice, Hou Hsiao-Hsien, with a very clear influence of Japanese New Wave movies. THAT'S popular? You've never actually made any proper criticism of it; you've just said that it's "slow" (and, IIRC, "pretentious," which is the laziest and most worthless "critique" of any kind of entertainment, and in most cases, hypocritical), and also have shown no appreciation or familiarity with any of the kind of cinema I have just referred to (or, hell, the more methodical works by someone like Ingmar Bergman).
This kind of red herring only shows that you're interested in double standards whereby you can vent on shows you hate while others cannot should they be shows you love. I just do not understand the mindset of people who want to shit on threads* that are about or mention titles that they hate; if I did that, I would never be able to stop posting on here. *Let us make a distinction between actual, reasoned criticism and knee-jerk quality, the latter of which the Internet has a disproportionate amount of. |
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Quark
 Posts: 710 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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Honestly, that strikes me as being incredibly arrogant. Because you personally didn't like a series, but it's popular, that means you have to come running to the forums to start moaning and complaining about said show, and telling everyone how badly it sucks? Regarding Toradora, you may personally feel it was mediocre, but the review wasn't written by you and it's not written specifically to cater to you and now matter how much you stamp your feet and insist that the show is terrible, you're not going to change anyone's mind who does like the show. People have differing opinions, and the way you're acting, it's almost as if you expect everyone to change their opinions to suit yours. It's not going to happen. I know how you feel about shows that you personally dislike being loved by many. I feel the same way about Twilight, Toradora! (I gave up about four episodes in. Taiga pissed me off, and the way she treated the guy was abuse, plain and simple. Not a healthy relationship, and not one I could root for.) or Transformers. But generally, I try to let it go. I've had plenty of times where people gush about some show or movie that I couldn't stand, and unless they're a close friend, or a co-worker that I enjoy arguing with, I try to politely tell them that I didn't care for it, and leave it at that. I guess basically what I'm saying is that your nerd rage is doing aboslutely nothing to help your cause. In fact, I'd say it backfires, because it only encourages the people who do like the shows you dislike to get even more fanatical about them. By all means, there's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion that you didn't like a show. But you're going beyond that, and trying to force your opinion down other people's throats. Not to mention that its exceedingly lame to hate something just because it's popular. Seriously. Let it go. |
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Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
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dtm when I defend you please do not make me look like an idiot for having defended you by saying stupid stuff like hating mediocre shows because someone else likes them.
I hate Code Geass, because it's a horrible anime that devolves into a nonsensical mess by the last arc. The fact that a ton of people like it, and sing it's praises has nothing to do with that hatred. Outside of Gurren Lagann, and POSSIBLY Eureka 7 none of the shows you listed where that popular, they had fans who talked about how awesome it was but it wasn't like 1000 of people would talk about it like Code Geass or Gundam 00. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I find it simultaneously hilarious and quite sad that you honestly seem to believe that it's a valuable use of your time and a necessary service to what is in essence standing in a crowded room yelling "BUT GUYS, THIS CARTOON ISN'T THAT GOOD!" |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Well, score this discussion for being yet another sad example where people don't read all of what you write. Or if they do, they selectively quote you out of context. Which is what every single person who has replied to my last post thus far has done. hissatsu01, HellKorn, Quark, Charred Knight and Zac, hang in your heads in collective shame. I could - and would - offer a rebuttal to every single one of you, but I feel as if another such post from me might implode the universe. Or get my future posts moderated, an equally dire prospect.
I'm going to take advantage of Zac's current good mood and end this discussion now. I do have other things to do you know, like finishing off this packet of peanut m&ms. Nom nom nom. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Do you think this is the right discussion topic for any of that? I doubt it is. Don't you think this has already been discussed before in more appropriate places...even recently? I believe so. It's not that nobody is willing or able to reply, it's that you love coming back to the same subject...regardless of the actual topic. |
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Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
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As I just said a few post ago to a another group of people in this same thread You just can't tell people that "you don't understand" without explaining about how their wrong. How is Zac wrong? You said it yourself that you hate Toradora only because it's a mediocre show that a few people sing praises too. If I did that for every series that I saw as mediocre and was hugely popular I would be banned from every messageboard I go too, and frankly I would deserve it for basically being a troll.
I am angry because I feel like I am being called an idiot without anyone explaining why I am an idiot. Lelouch won forspoiler[best death by one person] I questioned that winning because I felt that it was horribly written because his actions where nonsensical. I am then flat out told that I apparently don't understand what happened without anyone explaining what I am missing that made this scene win an award. I am simply asking what made this scene so great that it won an award. From the description given it's basically because it has a plot twist to it, but when you do look back the plot twist doesn't make any sense. |
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hissatsu01
Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Instead of assuming that nobody read or understood what your wrote, has it occurred to you that those who read it recognized that your goal is fruitless and misguided at best, highly annoying at worst? You are bothered that "mediocre" shows gain more recognition and fans that you think they deserve when other more deserving shows get ignored, so you set upon a quest to show these misguided fans the light. If only the could be reasoned with. Surely by pointing out the obvious flaws which these poor fans cannot see, they will realize the folly of their ways. As with all evangelizing, this works very well when objective standards for what is good and right just happen to mesh with your opinions. If not for pesky reality and the impossibility and futility of trying to get everyone to agree on what is good, it would be a great plan. I'll reiterate Quark's advice to you, as it is the most helpful in overcoming your stumbling block. Just let it go. |
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Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
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Quark's advice is excellent, wish I could actually do that instead of being obsessed since it would be great for my mental health, and probably my health overall.
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asimpson2006
 Posts: 3151 Location: USA |
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Doesn't that seem counter productive in a way to bring people down for like something that is medicore at best. You can like something that is medicore and see the faults and still enjoy it. Penlty of shows I liked where at best medicore and I still enjoy them faults and all, however I don't put them at the top of the ivory tower. For example TMHS while I liked it, I don't see it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Is it that much of a problem for you to accept others opinions for shows. I may not like something that someone else may like, but I am not going to on and on and get them to dislike the series/movie/OVA, etc. |
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Quark
Posts: 710 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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Oh, I read what you said, and I didn't quote you out of context. Please don't tell me to hang my head in shame, as a) I didn't do anything wrong, and b) it's making you sound like a jerk. I'm actually quite interested to hear what exactly I said that made it seem as if I didn't read what you had said, or am not understanding. By the way, it's childish to end a conversation with "Well, you don't understand me, and you're WRONG!" and then storm off without any further explaination. Anyway, I'm going to take my own advice and let it go. You think you're right, and it seems like there's nothing I, or anyone else, can say that will make you change your mind about this. |
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