Forum - View topic
Hey, Answerman! - manga.exe


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
GracieLizzy



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 492
Location: Sunderland, England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:34 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
GracieLizzy wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Swissman wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Swissman wrote:
I'm sure there must be something similar in English in case of the diminutive.


There isn't, actually.

Really? I find this hard to believe, because this page here suggests a lot of possibilities to form diminutives for many different words. Sure there must be a way to form diminutives for japanese names, no?

Or what about [name] & sweetie, in case of [name]-chan, like "Aki, sweetie!", or "Aki, baby!" ?
Or "darling", or "luv", "pettle, or pet for short" to name but a few that we Brits can and do somtimes use, probably too much really to the point of being rude to some.

BTW Aki means "Autumn" in Japanese.


I am deeply amused by the inclusion of several Geordie diminutives on that page. If only because the idea, of something getting a Geordie translation makes me giggle....

"Ganbare Satoshi-kun!"

to

"Gerrin there Ash lad!"

Razz
I'm just as amused that you claim complete possession of same. Laughing


Well I would have to admit to most people a Mackem translation and a Geordie translation would sound pretty similar... hmm.

Usagi: Oh no, I'm late for school. Mama why didn't you wake me?

to

Usagi: Ah christ, ave got to geet gannin to schule, Mam why didvin you wake iz up?

....I suppose?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zin5ki
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:45 pm Reply with quote
GracieLizzy wrote:
Well I would have to admit to most people a Mackem translation and a Geordie translation would sound pretty similar... hmm.

I believe such a class of people consists of everyone to whom those two terms do not apply.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Anymouse



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 685
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:50 pm Reply with quote
I am glad to have just learned who the Geordie people are. English history is always a fun thing to learn about.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GracieLizzy



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 492
Location: Sunderland, England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:02 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
GracieLizzy wrote:
Well I would have to admit to most people a Mackem translation and a Geordie translation would sound pretty similar... hmm.

I believe such a class of people consists of everyone to whom those two terms do not apply.


Oh I dunno, lots of people from 'Boro can tell the difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8179
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:33 pm Reply with quote
GracieLizzy wrote:
Zin5ki wrote:
GracieLizzy wrote:
Well I would have to admit to most people a Mackem translation and a Geordie translation would sound pretty similar... hmm.

I believe such a class of people consists of everyone to whom those two terms do not apply.


Oh I dunno, lots of people from 'Boro can tell the difference.
And not just 'Boro either I would wager. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Draneor



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 355
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:02 pm Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:
I'm sure there must be something similar in English in case of the diminutive.

Only for certain names. For example, there's Jonathan (legal/formal), John (informal/normal), and Johnie/Jonny (diminutive)/nickname).

My name follows that pattern (but isn't that). My legal name is the formal version, my current name is the normal one, and my child name was the diminutive. Only people that knew me as a child get to call me by the diminutive (otherwise, it's kind of insulting). Using my legal name is kind of off-putting since I don't got by it.

But I don't know how closely it would match honorifics and, in any case, there aren't multiple forms for Japanese names in English.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AilisKnil



Joined: 05 Feb 2011
Posts: 87
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:53 pm Reply with quote
I'm a little late to the party here, but it seems the topic of honorifics is still being beaten to death in this thread.


The thing about supporting the inclusion of honorifics because they retain some deeper meaning about character relationships is that the entirety of the Japanese language does this. It's not about what you put at the end of someone's name, it's about every little way you speak to them. With so many degrees of formal/informal speech, it's literally impossible to convey all of the nuances that come with the language when you translate it. People just seem to like retaining honorifics because they're simple and self-contained, but where do we draw the line here?

I used to be a huge proponent of retaining honorifics before I became familiar with the language because I did feel like I was missing out on something when they weren't there. But the thing that people have to accept about Japanese to English translations is that you DO miss out on a lot of things more important than honorifics because very few things translate directly. If you don't want to miss out on these things, learn Japanese and read Japanese manga.

The only problem with leaving honorifics out in certain works is that many translators try to affix English words to them (ie. "Mr." for -san or "little" for -chan). It's understandable that translating honorifics has proven to be so difficult, but the ideal translation should have no words that something written initially in English would not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:13 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I used to be a huge proponent of retaining honorifics before I became familiar with the language because I did feel like I was missing out on something when they weren't there. But the thing that people have to accept about Japanese to English translations is that you DO miss out on a lot of things more important than honorifics because very few things translate directly. If you don't want to miss out on these things, learn Japanese and read Japanese manga.


I have to disagree with this; of course, all translations lose something, but the mark of a good translation is figuring out a way to get that nuance back in. The whole "welp, you'll lose stuff anyway" attitude seems very defeatist to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:18 pm Reply with quote
Draneor wrote:
Swissman wrote:
I'm sure there must be something similar in English in case of the diminutive.

Only for certain names. For example, there's Jonathan (legal/formal), John (informal/normal), and Johnie/Jonny (diminutive)/nickname).

My name follows that pattern (but isn't that). My legal name is the formal version, my current name is the normal one, and my child name was the diminutive. Only people that knew me as a child get to call me by the diminutive (otherwise, it's kind of insulting). Using my legal name is kind of off-putting since I don't got by it.

But I don't know how closely it would match honorifics and, in any case, there aren't multiple forms for Japanese names in English.
You forget the part where the diminutive form happens to be some people's legal name. Really, Anglophones are just pretty informal in general these days; you probably could find good equivalents for the honorifics in Victorian England(where the system was so complicated few writers bothered to get everything right), but these days formality's just not something the language does too well without sounding unnatural.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maaya



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 976
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:22 am Reply with quote
As others have said, diminutives exist in english (Rebecca -> Becky, Becca, Victoria -> Vicky), but the way they're created makes it a bit difficult to apply that to japanese names (apart from exceptions like Mikihiro -> Mikky) ... but in japanese -chan is often attached to a shortened form of the name anyway. So there you get a diminutive nickname without needing the suffix. Aki is too short, but 3 or 4 syllable names are very often shortened to 2 syllables before adding -chan, because else they become too long. F.ex., Mikihiro will most definitely be Miki-chan, or Ayumi will often be Ayu-chan. Or Akiko -> Aki-chan

Anymouse wrote:
Basically, I simply mean to say that the Japanese language needs honorifics or titles.


In Japanese you can and do, easily and often, drop the pronoun completely. The respect etc. is much more conveyed through the verb forms and the vocabulary (+ your attitude).

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
Very true, and I consider it a point against the show's writing when that happens. It's really what I was trying to address earlier.


Pretty sure the writers often don't even realize these things. They write characters based on (the only) behavior they know ... or on stereotypes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 1985
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:25 am Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I have to disagree with this; of course, all translations lose something, but the mark of a good translation is figuring out a way to get that nuance back in. The whole "welp, you'll lose stuff anyway" attitude seems very defeatist to me.


The problem with trying is that... when something is impossible, it is impossible. Of course, the point is trying, so I don't think anyone is saying to just give up... but when you have something said in one culture that you have to try and translate to another culture, you also need to convert years upon years of experience in a specific societal environment, as well as somehow overwrite the conception of the audience on the thing being translated... with just words. Enough words that fit the screen/word-bubble/page count. That is the ultimate goal of making an accurate translation. And sometimes... it's impossible. "Mister" is often a parallel word for "-san" because the situations where you would use both of them usually overlap, but there are also cases where the context of a scene specifically relies on the usage of "-san" and trying to replace that with "mister" just wouldn't work because of Western culture. That's one reason we have translation notes, but in the meantime, something needs to go into that scene/word-bubble. And that's the point where one usually gives up and either: 1) inserts a random "-san" into the scene where it never existed before, causing possible confusion in the reader, or... 2) replaces the context with something completely different so that it flows well, even though it sacrifices the original context.
Particular cases where a translation does #2 (for any kind of context, not just with the usage of "-san") and then the story ends up returning to that context as a major part of the plot can be particularly cruel... but the translator can't predict that, so it's sometimes just bad luck. On the other hand, this kind of thing can be avoided by using #1. But then you have the possibility of a slew of other problems.

Translating is not just a matter of changing one language into another language. There are no actual rules to a perfect translation. And so, I agree that if you want the most accurate translations that don't risk misconceptions caused by the translations (and you own perceptions of those translations), the only way to get past that is to learn Japanese culture and language as fluently as possible. Otherwise, you just have to trust the translator and, on occasion, luck. :/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:37 am Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
but the translator can't predict that


Which has sorta been my entire point.

If you have the entire work (such as a standalone novel, or a movie, or whatever), then you can work the translation from the beginning to account for these sorts of things. But one of the major things that happens all the goddamn time in anime is people stumbling over changes in honorifics, and it just goddamn doesn't work in English because culturally we just don't have that particular hangup!

It doesn't matter that its not particularly realistic to Japanese society in general, but its a very standard trope in anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 13817
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:58 am Reply with quote
LordByronius wrote:

if i wasn't already entrenched in manga weirdness, if i read the words "fu fu fu" i would throw the book into a fire.


If people read that without knowing better, they'd think someone's about to throw the f-bomb out of nowhere. Laughing


Fencedude5609 wrote:
But one of the major things that happens all the goddamn time in anime is people stumbling over changes in honorifics, and it just goddamn doesn't work in English because culturally we just don't have that particular hangup!

It doesn't matter that its not particularly realistic to Japanese society in general, but its a very standard trope in anime.


Anime does tend to have sometimes an unhealthy compulsion of repeating people's names (and thus the use for honorifics). Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Moonsaber
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 267
Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:29 pm Reply with quote
I don't know what has been said about the streaming dubs, but Netflx has a very respectable amount of Dubbed anime streamed, including, I believe, all of Inu-Yasha and Sgt Frog. Not sure what this new service is thinking, but they are not offering anything competitive or new.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
emmapeel



Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:35 pm Reply with quote
For one thing, I appreciate the gender-neutrality of honorifics. A translation that adds gender-specificity adds a new dimension which can be distracting and/or unnatural. For example, maybe it's because I'm a woman but I have an acute awareness of the different ways the terms "Miss" "Mrs" and "Ms" are loaded, and all can be problematic for "-san."

On the other side of it, if a male is "-kun" or "-chan" then "sweetie" "babe," or "honey" seems feminizing, and potentially demeaning as a replacement. "Junior" or "little" can add other connotations than what "-kun" or "-chan" imply.

I'm against dumbing anything down, but even if you think simplicity is important, I would argue that honorifics are simpler than any attempted english equivalents, which to my mind just add layers of unintended complexity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 10 of 11

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group