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EireformContinent



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 977
Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:28 am Reply with quote
I have an impression comrade and it's literal translations that it were hijacked by communists connotations worldwide. The only people from whom you can hear it on daily basic are old Russians who were used to it as young people.

That whole discussion remind me Arthur Rubinstein's biography where for several pages he complained that English "sorrow" will never have exactly the same emotional weight as Polish "żal". And he was right, but nobody found other better equivalent.

And loose thought about whole translation matter- the whole problem is very similar to practising medicine. They are some rules, but every professional must think heavily while preforming since every human being and a piece of literature respond differently for the same treatment. In both cases the prefect solution would be long and careful work of dedicated professionals but lack of money and time makes everything being done in hurry.
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:40 am Reply with quote
poonk wrote:
fuuma_monou wrote:
"Comrades" is obviously for communists (to those of us still living the Cold War).
I'm pretty sure my dad's VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) correspondence uses the term "comrade" and they're U.S. vets! Laughing I thought the term has been adapted enough here in the U.S. that its definition was more generic (a la its origin, camaraderie) and not specifically linked to its specific Soviet origin*. Or is it just me?


Well we still have a communist insurgency in the Philippines. A Maoist communist insurgency, at that. (Yes, they complain that China isn't really communist these days.)

Used to have a book about Oz (written in the 1980s) that had the author noting that Dorothy or Princess Ozma using the word "comrade" had nothing to do with communism.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:15 am Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
I think this brings up the heart of the issue we are all arguing about: the audience. If 55% of the audience wants fluid English and doesn't care about the Japanese side of things, should the company ignore the wishes of the other 45%? I mean, that's simplifying it, considering there are also new audiences to take into account, as well as the intentions of the manga and a hoard of other aspects to consider... but really. There are enough fans of the "Japanese" side of things now that they shouldn't simply be ignored, even if they just want Japanese in their manga for the sake of being "cool." They're still part of the audience.


The translation should cater to everyone who is fluent in English. It should respect those who have no prior knowledge of the Japanese language. For example, if I want to hook a friend of mine into Anime I don't want him to be struggling to decipher what "baka" means as he's also struggling to read subtitles for the first time (we're assuming I don't have the dub available). "Idiot" and "moron" are both perfectly fine translations, so just use them. Don't keep them in because some in the audience want to read Japanese in an English translation. If people really want Japanese in their Anime and Manga they can learn the Japanese language and watch/read them raw. A big ask, true, because it takes months (if not over a year) of classes before your average person can watch an average episode raw and understand most of the dialogue. It's too daunting for me. But their preferences for Japanese terms should not override the need for smooth, professional translation.

Juno016 wrote:
Of course, encouraging them to use words like "kawaii" and "-chan" wrong or... in public... isn't necessarily the best way to go about it, but there are still ways to allow manga to be as much of a teaching device for those who want to learn, bit by bit, as it is entertainment. I mean, can anyone here deny that they learned anything about Japan from manga? Is there seriously anyone here who hasn't noticed anything intricately Japanese about the media form? If this wasn't something to consider, then we might as well just go back to reading all our manga left-to-right again.


I don't think Anime and Manga are supposed to be used as learning tools. Sure, it is nice to learn new things about Japan, but that's more an osmosis thing, or something we do in our spare time after being curious about something we saw in a show. The primary objective of entertainment is to entertain, not to teach us Japanese. We the audience should not be coming across foreign words (that have almost 1:1 English equivalents) in the middle of our English subtitles. No, just no. If people deliberately want to learn they can take classes. Putting out an agenda of "let's force people to learn everyday Japanese phrases and idioms" is not the way to do it.

Juno016 wrote:
But Luffy's way of going about making "friends" is unusual to us. It's hardly believable to most of us that anyone would go up to anyone else, ask them to be their "friend," and then proceed to risk their life from that point on for this person they met only a few days ago. In the West, friendship is something you make and THEN develop. In Japan, however, you develop the concept of "nakama," cherish it, and THEN you make people your "nakama." Development after that is also crucial, but by considering this, Luffy is no longer just a strong idiot who does admirable things we find hard to believe is possible in reality--he carries the meaning of "nakama" with him, as all Japanese people [are expected to] do, and proceeds to give meaning to something the Japanese audience can understand, allowing them to care for and find the reality in Luffy's way of going about things.


I've never watched an episode of One Piece so I can't comment on it specifically. I will say that men (women too, but moreso with men) from many cultures around the word are supposed to live their lives with integrity, honestly and absolute loyalty to both their family/tribe and their mates/friends/comrades*. Also, in fiction it is not unusual (in fact, it is very, very common) for people to become close friends within a few episodes or chapters. Heck, even within the episode or chapter which they meet.

Juno016 wrote:
It's all a matter of perspective. It's not like just leaving the word as "nakama" with a little translation note will automatically convert the Western audience into fans of "nakama" everywhere. And thus, it isn't really considered that important yet. It has yet to be done professionally yet because it's not that important at this point in time. However, it's a possibility for the future that can give something important to an audience that does care about it.


Maybe in the future if there are options for multiple subtitle tracks on official releases the audience can choose what style of sub translation they want. That way, everyone wins.



*
There is a saying that's rather famous: a good friend helps you move house, but a great friend helps you bury the body.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:20 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

The translation should cater to everyone who is fluent in English. It should respect those who have no prior knowledge of the Japanese language. For example, if I want to hook a friend of mine into Anime I don't want him to be struggling to decipher what "baka" means as he's also struggling to read subtitles for the first time (we're assuming I don't have the dub available). "Idiot" and "moron" are both perfectly fine translations, so just use them.


Can we not conflate obviously idiotic decisions like that with the discussion over honorifics? They are not even remotely the same thing, and the continued use of such examples is just a strawman used to dismiss the legitimate disagreements that can be held on the use of them in translations.

No one is seriously suggesting that "baka" should not be translated.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:34 am Reply with quote
So what?

The same applies to honorifics. I don't want my theoretical mate to have to decipher -kun and -chan if the translator can help it.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:42 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
So what?

The same applies to honorifics. I don't want my theoretical mate to have to decipher -kun and -chan if the translator can help it.


I really do feel that this is one of those things you need to know if you are going to do any more than just dabble in Japanese entertainment.

If you are going to watch foreign media, you may just goddamn have to learn something about that foreign culture. There are all sorts of things in anime that just aren't going to translate at all, because of the cultural context, and they aren't going to be explained because the intended audience already knows what they are.

Now, if a translator has the ENTIRETY of a work on hand, and knows precisely how relationships change across it, and can work that reasonably into the translation, great. But for ongoing stuff, its very, very easy to translate yourself into a corner, if for no other reason than that Japanese is significantly more nuanced on this point than English is.
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poonk



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:45 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
So what?

The same applies to honorifics. I don't want my theoretical mate to have to decipher -kun and -chan if the translator can help it.
No offense dtm42 but I feel you're drastically underestimating the intelligence of your theoretical mate. Because personally, if I truly liked a person, something as trivial as a small handful of honorific terms surely wouldn't stand in my way. Wink
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:47 am Reply with quote
poonk wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
So what?

The same applies to honorifics. I don't want my theoretical mate to have to decipher -kun and -chan if the translator can help it.
No offense dtm42 but I feel you're drastically underestimating the intelligence of your theoretical mate. Because personally, if I truly liked a person, something as trivial as a small handful of honorific terms surely wouldn't stand in my way. Wink


Yes, this is another point. I don't want to read translations written for morons, just like how I don't want to watch show's written for morons (ok thats not true, I watch plenty of stupid crap, but thats beside the point).

A translation written for the lowest common denominator is doing a great disservice to the medium.
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poonk



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:01 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
I really do feel that this is one of those things you need to know if you are going to do any more than just dabble in Japanese entertainment.

If you are going to watch foreign media, you may just goddamn have to learn something about that foreign culture.
Even if I don't agree with you on much else, damnit Fencedude if I don't totally agree with you on this. It's not that hard; just learn a few basic terms, through context if need be, like when you were assigned reading in school classes. I really don't think I'm a "weeaboo"-type for expecting this of folks who primarily indulge themselves in Japanese media. Whenever I encounter a foreign word/concept in my entertainment I just see it as an opportunity to learn, not as a personal affront to my intelligence.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:17 am Reply with quote
Translations should not be written for morons, they should be written for normal human beings who aren't so into Japanese culture that they're a mile up its arse.

As I said before, if people want to watch Anime in Japanese then that's great, they can take classes and watch the raws. The instant fansubbers start believing that everyone in their audience wants the exact same arbitrary level of Japanese terms in the English translation then they're going to piss off people. Some people are going to say it's not far enough if all you do is honorifics, while other people who would have been happy with just basic greetings and phrases are going to be annoyed if you start making translations such as this:



It's a game you can't win unless you're smart enough not to play it in the first place.

Anime is one of my biggest hobbies and I don't want to read Japanese terms unless they were needed. Someone new to the fandom is certainly not going to want to put up with unprofessional translations.

The K.I.S.S. principle is important; the best translations are smooth and simple and flow naturally. They do not introduce foreign terms unless they are relevant or could not be translated smoothly.
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kgw



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:18 am Reply with quote
In dubs, I am always favour drop every honorific, if possible, because you cannot taught Japanese to a dozen of voice actors in every episode: «"san" what? whose saint?» «senpai? it's this guy's surname?»

Besides, in some languages (like Spanish), they have their own way to show respect, distance or closeness without importing "kunchansansamas".

As for translator notes... well, as someone said: "if you have to explain a joke, then it's not a joke".
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Juno016



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:23 am Reply with quote
It's hard for me to quote so much, since I don't have much time to reply right now (and I don't feel like waiting to reply), but that was what I was suggesting.

Business wise, it makes little sense right now to have more than one track--it's a waste of effort, money, and space. But if the economy moves at some point and the popularity of Japanese media once again changes the kind of demand companies respond to, it is very possible that the mainstream and niche groups will have separate power, but enough impact to influence the same product in several different ways, kinda like how we have official dubs and subs in the West now (compared to the days when we only have official dubs and an occasional sub).

Because if you try to target that 55% majority of the audience, 45% is still a large number of people to ignore the pleas of. Not that these are real statistics or anything (since there are none), but it does seem like a lot of consumers find far more value in the niche stuff today than would've been thought of as possible years ago, before the communication technology improved drastically.

And also, Japanese takes far more than one year to learn before being able to watch anything in Japanese without subtitles. And if there is a program out there that tries to teach someone that much in so little time... well, that's a lot of effort one needs to keep up, just for something like this. Not to mention, there are several people who just don't have access to the proper tools they need to learn Japanese, especially at their specific personal pace. Having the fans learn Japanese to watch it raw is quite the ambitious statement. =P

And finally, on the term of "nakama" vs. "tomodachi," maaya, you're quite accurate. But if you know that much, it should also be apparent that the Japanese word for "tomodachi" (the more accurate comparison to the English word, "close friend") just doesn't catch what One Piece's feelings and team are about. If they were "tomodachi," they would likely be compelled to act completely different than they do now toward each other--particularly in how they cooperate. They'd be more likely to support each other emotionally, rather than hate each others' guts (even if it's just on the surface). "Nakama" goes as far as "respect" without losing the intention behind the word, "friend." It's like a "family," as you could say many Japanese company "colleagues" are. And that, combined with what I said before, is why it's particularly hard to capture the feelings behind the word.

[EDIT] Oh, and one more thing. People who don't think they should have to learn Japanese words when watching subtitled anime aren't morons. They aren't necessarily ignorant. I think it'd be nice if they did... but if that were a requirement, it would be a huge setback to get other people who have little time or attention for this stuff to even try it out. It's bad advertising because it's less convenient than anything else they could watch instead. And by human nature, we do exactly that because we think it's more efficient that way. Not because we're morons.
Not that I haven't spent my whole life trying to learn everything I can about it. There are people like me, too, who appreciate the opposite. I'm just saying it would be a setback to make it a requirement. =P
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:45 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Some people are going to say it's not far enough if all you do is honorifics, while other people who would have been happy with just basic greetings and phrases are going to be annoyed if you start making translations such as this:



I love how you totally are ignoring the point I am making in favor of your lovely strawman thats so easy to beat up on.

OF COURSE THAT SCREENSHOT IS IDIOTIC. Holy shit stop [expletive] bringing that shit up as if it means a goddamn [expletive] thing! Its unbelievably intellectually dishonest of you to imply that anyone is suggesting that that is at all a reasonable goddamn translation!

So address my goddamn point without the idiotic divergent theatrics!

Edit: Also if you know the context behind that screenshot than you are even more intellectually dishonest than I thought.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:10 am Reply with quote
I hate using the term "weeaboo" but it is applicable here.

The screenshot is just the logical extension/endpoint of what weeaboos want, the use of Japanese in an English translation even where not necessary. Fencedude5609, if you'd read my post you'd notice that I used the screenshot to make the point that many people wouldn't be happy with it, and therefore no fansubber should assume they know what their audience wants. There isn't a universally-acceptable level of Japanese in an English translation as everyone holds different views and wants certain things translated but not others. Therefore, good translations try to be as minimal as possible and only use Japanese terms/phrases/honorifics where necessary.

And now that I've written the same post twice, hopefully it would have sunk in.

Oh, and though I know what's going on in the scene, I don't know the actual meta-context behind the screenshot. It might be fake, like the infamous Death Note "keikaku means plan" picture is supposed to be.

All I know about the Kallen screenshot is that I've seen it around for years and years and haven't heard anyone say it's a fake. Since it demonstrated the point I was making - that is, it represents an undesirable standard of translation even for most people happy with some Japanese in their subs - I decided to use it as a visual aid. Where the hell do you think intellectual dishonesty comes into it? Hmm? Explain yourself, if you even can.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:22 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Fencedude5609, if you'd read my post you'd notice that I used the screenshot to make the point that many people wouldn't be happy with it, and therefore no fansubber should assume they know what their audience wants.


IT WAS A TROLL SUB YOU [insults removed].

GG RELEASED THAT AS A WAY TO RILE PEOPLE UP BECAUSE ITS STUPID.

Also, slippery slope fallacy.

[Mod Edit: Want to know this cool little secret? You can actually talk to people without treating them like dirt, yelling insults at them, and acting like a child. I know it's hard to believe, but yes, there's this thing called being civil that you might want to try sometime. If you need some incentive how about this; I'm just going to start removing your entire posts when you behave this way until you learn to start acting like a civilized human being. - Keonyn]
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