Forum - View topicShelf Life - Stairway to Heaven
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Anime World Order
 Posts: 389 Location: Florida |
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Clannad is most certainly not shojo, and its intended target audience is not girls like yourself at all. It's for adult men in their 20s-30s and up, which brings up two interesting points regarding the majority of seinen works released in America, what few there are these days. The first point being that they don't really sell all that well such that they're never really the most popular title at any given time, and the second point (which perhaps accounts for the first point) is that they're often targeted in the US to different age/gender demographics than for whom they're initially crafted for. A great deal of moe-centric seinen titles tend to be marketed by US publishers as best suited for younger audiences, such as girls or in some cases kids. Presumably this is because of the casts of "cute" characters (most of which are female) and emphasis on "romance" and/or "comedy" over "action," as the notions of "romantic comedy" and "meant primarily for guys to watch" are pretty much mutually exclusive here. "Sex comedy" is more for the "mainly guys" crowd, and US publishers really only go that route for more fanservice-heavy fare. Even the more action-oriented seinen tends to be directed less towards grown-ups and more towards teenagers or in some cases kids. The only time this doesn't happen is when there are instances of sex or nudity. I don't know if this maneuver really makes sense or not. Certainly, most of the anime/manga crowd is younger, but they've already got a plethora of things available to them that's tailored specifically to what they want. When you try to push something that's designed to best suit a different audience, more often than not you'll find that it doesn't quite fit all that well. I'm sure someone will say "oh yeah? Well all this stuff isn't really designed for us anyway since we're not Japanese!" to which my response will be something along the lines of "yes, you are absolutely correct. And?" because that isn't directly relevant to what I'm talking about.
How you arrived at this conclusion is a total mystery, as I don't think I have ever once said anything about the works of Kazuo Koike other than "they're insanely awesome." Speaking from personal observation only, all of the most ardent supporters of Code Geass that I have ever met and spoken to in person over the last 4 years have been girls. Oddly enough, not a single one of them like the series because of the presence of robots and, when asked, hesitate to even classify it as a "giant robot" or "mecha" show. No matter what the ever-shrinking minority of highly vocal diehard mecha enthusiasts on the Internet claims, I'm inclined to agree with the empirical evidence before me. Whether it's fan blogs, reviews, or discussion threads alike: Code Geass is a series where it takes a while for people to remember "oh yeah, and also there are robots in that show" despite the fact that Sunrise made the thing and there's practically a robot fight every episode. This is not due to a widespread cognitive fan dissonance. It's because the robots aren't that important and (but for a few exceptions) not that cool.
Well yes, she kinda did. My official argumentative stance on the series is not "no guys watch this" since the series is meticulously crafted to appeal to as many demographics as possible, but "this is not a mecha series despite the presence of the Knightmare Frames and it being a Sunrise production." The reason it's not is precisely BECAUSE it's meticulously crafted to appeal to as many demographics as possible. Last edited by Anime World Order on Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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doctordoom85
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So now you're saying there are Code Geass male fans, but the most vocal portion of the fanbase is all female. So really, totally different from your remark that you made to Erin (unless she misquoted you). There's a difference between fan and fanboy/girl, so there ARE plenty of Code Geass male fans.
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Mushi-Man
 Posts: 1537 Location: KCMO |
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And, at last, this is the main problem of Code Geass. The sad thing about it is that this is the most popular anime with mecha in it in quite some time, yet no one can remember the mecha. If you look back on the series and think of all the times they hace a robot on screen you could have easily removed/replaced it with just about anything else and the story would not have change a bit. Honestly if we're going to label Code Geass as a mecha series we might as well go ahead and say that Voices of a Distant Star is a mecha anime, even though the mech was not even a relevant aspect of the story. Even watching the trailer you see that there isn't even a single robot that appears in it until half way through it. This is not, however, to say that Code Geass is bad. I actually enjoyed it and watched both seasons. But calling Code Geass a mecha series is like calling Trinity Blood a "good" series, you just cant do it. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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I respect AWO's / Daryl Surat's opinion but sorry, I just can't really buy into that argument without a single drop of cynicism.
The entire logic behind the so-called Real Robot genre rests on the concept of making the actual mecha relatively unimportant to the story being told, precisely because they are supposed to be pseudo-realistic tools of war, whether they're powerful prototypes or mass produced grunts. In the end the story isn't really about them or their exploits, no matter how much some hardcore mecha fans might or might not drool (or rant and rage) over the sci-fi engineering involved or how much they might or might not love their model kits. Honestly, I don't think that or some nebulous and subjective "cool factor" is what makes the difference either. Strictly speaking, not even the mecha in Mobile Suit Gundam can be considered truly irreplaceable, particularly once you move from the original series (which was still enough of a Super Robot show in many superficial and purely aesthetic areas, admittedly) to some of its later sequels (0080, 08th MS Team, MS Igloo). From a story perspective, the reality is that they might as well be space fighters, powered armor or tanks. And, guess what, I would deduce that a significant portion of what made Gundam stand out and become relatively mainstream in Japan wasn't just the mecha, no matter how iconic the titular machine and the non-hideous Zeon models were, but the story and characters involved. The designs and engineering could have been far better or far worse than what they were, but that's just the icing on the cake. In short, if you're going to narrow down the definition of "mecha series" to "a series where the mecha have to be incredibly important and essential to the story" then you're probably single-handedly throwing out over half of the Real Robot genre, not to mention some of the more interesting or at least amusing hybrids out there. Using popular opinions and reactions as a guideline is also something that's open to debate. Just as there are, in fact, individuals who actually appreciate (all or some of) the mecha in Code Geass -you can find them in places like MAHQ for example- from personal experience I would also say that a sizable number of the people who enjoyed Gurren Lagann (another series engineered from the ground up for widespread appeal across demographics) weren't particularly interested in the actual mecha either, they just loved the over-the-top hot-blooded action (that just happened to involve giant robots) and some of the characters. That argument is a double-edged sword. |
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Anime World Order
Posts: 389 Location: Florida |
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At this point this is unrelated to the current thread so I'll leave it be at this, but my rule of thumb: if the title of the show doesn't mention the mecha, it's not a mecha show. Doesn't matter if it's "Real" or "Super." If the mecha's not in the title, then chances are incredibly high that it's an anime title with mecha in it and not a "mecha anime" title first and foremost. Ghost in the Shell, for example, is a more general sci-fi series than it is a "mecha anime," despite the fact that there are Fuchi-/Tachi-komas and cyborgs all about. This isn't an arbitrary "pulling things out of thin air" manuever on my part. It's just a simple question of what has top priority in the show, and a really good indicator that something has top priority above other things is if it's what gets mentioned on the marquee. There are certainly some notable exceptions to this rule, though many of them are fairly recent (within the last 5-10 years). Still, in over 40 some years of anime, I estimate the number of mecha anime titles that don't have the mecha in the title to number fewer than 10 such that you'd have to stop and think about it for a little while to come up with a good list. And no, Full Metal Panic isn't one of them. Not only did they make an entire season of that show without Arm Slaves in it that managed to still be recognizable as Full Metal Panic, it was also the BEST season. |
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Kalessin
 Posts: 931 |
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Code Geass is definitely a mecha series. It's squarely in the real robot genre. However, it doesn't focus on the robots. Knightmares are an essential part of the story, but the focus is really on the characters, not the machines. The better Gundam series don't rely on their mecha either, but even there, the mecha are a very integral part of the series with climactic battles deciding the fate of things and the climactic battles being decided by piloting skills. True, piloting skills in Code Geass certainly affect things - especially Suzaku's - but for the most part, it's not really the mech themselves which decide much. It's usually one of Zero's crazy plans, and it's definitely a conflict between characters, not machines. So, Code Geass is definitely a mecha series, but that's not the focus. And they did the other stuff so well (hitting many other genres) that they pulled in a number of different demographics. That's almost certainly one of the main reasons that it's so popular.
I have no clue how popular it is in general with each gender, but I'm a guy, and it's my favorite anime. And I know plenty of other guys who like it too. I certainly wouldn't have said that it was designed primarily for girls. The girls may be more vocal about liking it though, or maybe they just stand out more because of all the shows which tend to appeal primarily to guys. It certainly appeals to both genders in either case, and if it's attracting females where many mecha shows don't, then I'd say that they're definitely doing something right. Mecha alone do not a good anime make. |
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 598 |
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Timothy Dalton was very enjoyable. I wanted spoiler[to see the Time Lords return but really not like that.] In any case, your opinion is noted.
Hardly any shojo anime makes it to DVD in the US. If they send me Peach Girl or Paradise Kiss or Nana, I'd give those Shelf Worthy ratings.
Clannad is for boys, as Daryl says. It's really not my cup of tea, anyway. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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Well, that's the thing. I don't think mecha need to be the top priority in a mecha series, whether or not they're mentioned in the title. I don't believe the exceptions to your rule are unimportant, they actually support the other side of the argument. Case in point: look at all the complaining in certain loud circles about how Shin Mazinger took the time to do interesting things with characters such as Baron Ashura instead of being all robots, all the time. Imagawa's Giant Robo wasn't actually about the mecha either and the human cast was far more prominent than the titular mecha in almost all respects. Does the title matter that much when the content can be so different? My argument (or hypothesis, if you will) is that the historical shift towards Real Robots helps explain, directly and indirectly, why the current trend (exemplified by Code Geass, among others) is to create more and more "series with mecha in them" that aren't actually about the mecha...because that's something pioneered by the works of Tomino and even those of his (curiously and relevantly enough) would-be understudy Imagawa. Heck, Neon Genesis Evangelion and its so-called deconstruction of the genre didn't even change this trend, it only pushed things forward. You have the mecha in the title, sure, but the show wasn't really about them at all. It was about whiny Shinji. When you make series that aren't just about the robots, giving either equal or superior importance to the characters and stories involved, it naturally follows that they will have the potential to reach more people, because these elements can appeal to a diverse audience that doesn't think "mecha first" in any way, shape or form. Introducing other priorities has, in the mentioned shows and more, helped earn either critical or commercial success, sometimes even across gender gaps (which brings us back to the specific point in this Shelf Life column that originally started this debate). The outcome can include one or the other, both or none...but the potential is there. Actual quality and success, of course, vary a lot. My position is that the mecha genre has evolved, for better and for worse, not simply shot itself in the head. |
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eyeresist
 Posts: 995 Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney) |
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For me, if the main characters regularly drive bipedal mechas, then it's a mecha show.
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areallystupidguy
Posts: 13 Location: Montana |
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I thought The Green Death was pretty good
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Kalessin
Posts: 931 |
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My thoughts exactly. I'm very surprised that anyone would try and claim that FMP isn't a mecha series. It's about as real robot as they come. It is, however, a prime example of a mecha series that has a lot going for it beyond the mecha themselves - so much so that they managed to make a whole season of it without any mecha at all. Still, I'd definitely classify it as mecha.
Definitely. But every era of Doctor Who is different with its ups and downs. And a lot of it comes down to tastes. I read a review of the new series once which where the reviewer was complaining bitterly about David Tennant's Doctor and how Eccleston was far better. But personally, I'd easily put Tennant in the top three with Tom Baker and Silvester McCoy. Everyone's taste is different and Doctor Who is always changing as much as it stays the same. In either case, I'm definitely hoping that Matt Smith manages to match David Tennant in his own way so that the series stays as good as ever. At least the best writer of the new series is now in charge. It'll be exciting. In any case, I was certainly surprised to run into a comment here about Doctor Who at all, let alone a story as old as The Green Death. And it's good to see that a number of the posters here are familiar with it as well. |
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bglassbrook
 Posts: 1243 Location: Gaithersburg, MD |
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As to my Linebarrels statement, it sure seemed that way from the news releases when I double-checked to see if I rememberd it was coming out on VOD, some linear channel, or random voices in my head.
Yeah, Funi's been putting out a lot of pretty shows that I'd like to buy lately, but sadly being pretty & good & new makes them obvious HD-double-dip bait. Not to mention the added benefit of usually not having to deal in half-seasons (a boon to those of us that like to marathon.) |
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